Last nights speach

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

fact: Illegal aliens will covered, they have health care now and that won't change.

Did you guys read the label on the bottle your drinking from?

(Sec. 246) titled "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS,"

The Heller amendment would be impossible to enforce without a National ID Card. Not having stronger measures doesn't mean the bill is covering something it explicitly excludes!

Today, and in the future an illegal can walk into a hospital and get care. But the plan as proposed won't provide "coverage" to illegals unless they break the law.

-spence

[scottw]

Steven Camarota, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies, "The legislation states illegals won't get the affordability credits [to pay for their healthcare]. But Wilson's comment is correct in that the normal enforcement mechanism was excluded from the bill. I think that's the fundamental question."


Camarota's organization has estimated that due to the lack of enforcement provisions — which were specifically excluded from the legislation when it was being drafted — healthcare reform would benefit 6.6 million illegals at a cost of some $31 billion.


"In that sense it is disingenuous," says Camarota, "to argue that the bill is excluding illegal immigrants. I'm not going to say lie. It's disingenuous. It's not entirely correct. And that's a big deal."


Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., had offered an amendment that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized healthcare under the proposed plan.


The House Ways and Means Committee nixed the Heller amendment by a 26-to-15 vote along straight party lines.

Many states give illegals drivers licenses, which will be sufficient to get free healthcare under the plan.


Critics also contend that millions of illegals already have counterfeit Social Security cards or other fraudulent documents. There also is no enforcement mechanism in the legislation to prevent illegals who use fake IDs from also obtaining taxpayer-subsidized health insurance.


GOP representatives introduced the amendment to provide a way to weed out non-citizens from the program.


A description of the amendment on Heller's Web site states, "The underlying bill is insufficient for the purpose of preventing illegal aliens from accessing the bill’s proposed benefits, as it does not provide mechanisms allowing those administering the program to ensure illegal aliens cannot access taxpayer-funded subsidies and benefits."


The Heller amendment would have required that individuals applying for the public healthcare option would be subject to two systems used to verify immigration status already in use by the government: The Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program.


The two systems cross-reference Social Security numbers and employment information to establish whether an individual is a U.S. citizen.


I believe the fact that they are "illegals", as you put it indicates that they are already breaking the law....

it is hilarious to hear this administration and leadership argue that they have no intention of insuring illegals....gimme a break

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

Many states give illegals drivers licenses, which will be sufficient to get free healthcare under the plan.

Health insurance under the plan would either be paid for, or subsidized through tax credits.

How many illegals do you know who file a tax return?

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Health insurance under the plan would either be paid for, or subsidized through tax credits.

How many illegals do you know who file a tax return?

-spence

I thought the rich were paying for it ?...


how many illegals currently get countless government services that they are not supposed to get, thanks to the dems and advocates, sanctuary cities etc...?


"the plan"

which plan Spence?...Obama was running around yesterday talking about "his plan"..."my plan this...my plan that"...is Obama's plan in writing? can you show me this in writing or are we supposed to trust the word of a liar?

....and we know that dems love to sneak things in at 3am when noone has the chance to read them and then immediately run a vote through....

[buckman]

They will be covered... it will effect more then 5% of us.....it will add to the deficit....it will add to the tax burden, maybe not for you, but for others, I guess your ok with that....It will mean the Feds deciding on what you get and don't get.

I drink Crown Spence. Unless I want to put on a media circus to boost my ego and settle a race war. Then I drink Bud..

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

How many illegals do you know who file a tax return?

-spence

Exactly, they work under the table, never contribute or pay their fair share.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

They will be covered... it will effect more then 5% of us.....it will add to the deficit....it will add to the tax burden, maybe not for you, but for others, I guess your ok with that....It will mean the Feds deciding on what you get and don't get.

Perhaps you should try reading the actual proposals rather than just the GOP talking points.

The Obama proposal doesn't apply to illegals.

The House bill doesn't provide taxpayer funded subsidies to illegals.

About the only way illegals could get more free health benefits with this reform is by expanding Medicaid through existing law (the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act) signed by Ronald Reagan in 1986.

-spence

[FishermanTim]

When they sneak thru the McCain/Kennedy bill, there won't be any "undocumented aliens" AKA illegal immigrants.

What I really find insulting is the repeated attempts to rush through legislation that no one has the time to read (without an interpreter).
If these measures were truly "for the best" they'd give people a chance to read these documents.
I think these "bills" are finely orchestrated events, where the documents are loaded with so much crap that no one can understand them without a translator.
If I wanted to pass a bill/law quickly, I'd do the same thing: make it next to impossible for anyone to contradict the document because no one had time to dscipher it in time.

I keep waiting for Obama's nose to start growing like Pinocchio's

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Perhaps you should try reading the actual proposals rather than just the GOP talking points.

The Obama proposal doesn't apply to illegals.

The House bill doesn't provide taxpayer funded subsidies to illegals.

About the only way illegals could get more free health benefits with this reform is by expanding Medicaid through existing law (the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act) signed by Ronald Reagan in 1986.

-spence

Then why shoot down GOP amendments that prohibit Illegals from free health care? It will be in the bill Spence. They will be covered. Obama's not going to miss this opportunity to add voters to his herd.
Believe it or not. Your choice, fairy land or reality.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

Then why shoot down GOP amendments that prohibit Illegals from free health care? It will be in the bill Spence. They will be covered. Obama's not going to miss this opportunity to add voters to his herd.
Believe it or not. Your choice, fairy land or reality.

There is no way illegals with be *included* in the bill.

How about this... if there is explicit inclusion of illegals in the bill, food and beers for you and me at the Chieftain, my treat. If it's not, tuna trip on your boat?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

There is no way illegals with be *included* in the bill.

How about this... if there is explicit inclusion of illegals in the bill, food and beers for you and me at the Chieftain, my treat. If it's not, tuna trip on your boat?

you are right....the bill will probably only cover undocumented immigrants...no illegal aliens...

hey, maybe Acorn should take the reigns of signing everyone up for Obamacare...they are doing a bang up job with home loans and tax advice for hookers....

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

There is no way illegals with be *included* in the bill.

How about this... if there is explicit inclusion of illegals in the bill, food and beers for you and me at the Chieftain, my treat. If it's not, tuna trip on your boat?

They just won't be illegals by then or they just won't be excluded. You know how the games played JD. We heard the same thing about Mass Health. "it will only cost 100million" now it's almost a billion. "We wont cover illegals" we do. No rationing health care" it's rationed

[RIJIMMY]

spence and Johnny you are 100% correct.
there is no explicit language in the bill saying illegal immigrants will be covered.
but there is no language in welfare bills that illegals will be covered. No language in city/town laws that they can attend public schools. no explicit language in WIC or other taxpayed funded programs that they will be covered, but you know what? In many, many cases....they are! So why would any sensible person assume that they wont be covered by this?

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Then why shoot down GOP amendments that prohibit Illegals from free health care? It will be in the bill Spence. They will be covered. Obama's not going to miss this opportunity to add voters to his herd.
Believe it or not. Your choice, fairy land or reality.

Illegals can't vote.

If "they will be covered" why does both the House bill and draft Senate bills contain explicit legislation that they are not?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Illegals can't vote.

If "they will be covered" why does both the House bill and draft Senate bills contain explicit legislation that they are not?

-spence

Haven't you heard of Acorn

Draft bills don't mean anything. There like Obama speaches.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Illegals can't vote.

If "they will be covered" why does both the House bill and draft Senate bills contain explicit legislation that they are not?

-spence

Illegals most certainly can vote. I guess you haven't read about the ACORN investigations and arrests recently? Eleven ACORN staffers arrested for illegally registering voters.

Please also provide the explicit legislation that says that illegals not be covered. Thanks.

[scottw]

illegal aliens are the dems most reliable voting block next to African Americans ... no documentos necessario

they vote in exactly the same way that the get services that they aren't supposed to get...fraudulently with the help of democrats

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Illegals most certainly can vote. I guess you haven't read about the ACORN investigations and arrests recently? Eleven ACORN staffers arrested for illegally registering voters.

Please also provide the explicit legislation that says that illegals not be covered. Thanks.

Being allowed to vote, and fraudulently filling out paperwork are two things. Thus why Eleven ACORN staffers were arrested.

Can, may and do are three completely separate things.

Everyone in here adheres to the "guilty by association" mentality. As such, every Democrat doesn't pay their taxes and cheats on their wife, and every Republican molests young pages or looks for gay sex in bathrooms.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Being allowed to vote, and fraudulently filling out paperwork are two things. Thus why Eleven ACORN staffers were arrested.

Can, may and do are three completely separate things.

Everyone in here adheres to the "guilty by association" mentality. As such, every Democrat doesn't pay their taxes and cheats on their wife, and every Republican molests young pages or looks for gay sex in bathrooms.

with Obama it's becoming "guilty by association....after association....after association....after association....after association.....after association...."

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Republican molests young pages or looks for gay sex in bathrooms.

This is true...

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Please also provide the explicit legislation that says that illegals not be covered. Thanks.

I already did, but as you seem to be lazy...

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...3200ih.txt.pdf

I also believe that there is existing law prohibiting illegals from participating in Federally funded medical care unless it's an emergency.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

I also believe that there is existing law prohibiting illegals from participating in Federally funded medical care unless it's an emergency.

-spence

Unfortunately, visiting the hospital for the sniffles can be considered an emergency.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Unfortunately, visiting the hospital for the sniffles can be considered an emergency.

Blame Reagan. He signed the bill into law that requires hospitals to provide service.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I already did, but as you seem to be lazy...



I also believe that there is existing law prohibiting illegals from participating in Federally funded medical care unless it's an emergency.

-spence

And Democrats respond, “No, we didn’t. We don’t need that, because Medicare and Medicaid and such already require documentation of legal status.”

Here's a neat summary of the findings of a Medicaid audit in the state of Washington, in which seven-figure sums were improperly diverted to illegal aliens, and in which program administrators apparently fought tooth and talon to undermine the audit, going so far as to alter records. Read for yourself. Washington:

• paid $22 million to individuals who did not provide valid Social Security Numbers (SSN) or offered no SSN at all;

• paid more than $1 million to individuals claiming a deceased relative's SSN;

• provided $1.3 million in unallowable medical services to illegal aliens;

• cannot account for more than 1.4 million in pills worth in excess of $529,000; and

• did not cooperate with SAO's audit, leading to the disclaiming of the $6.1 billion Medicaid program.

Regarding the lack of cooperation extended by DSHS, SAO made the following statements throughout its audit:

• [DSHS] personnel attempted to thwart particular audit procedures by questioning our authority to either expand the scope of our audit or to obtain certain information.

• [DSHS] altered information related to sample transactions while we were attempting to complete our review.

• In some instances, we were unable to independently interview line staff without the presence of management or without management's selection of the employees to be interviewed.

• Staff members informed us that they had to obtain permission from management prior to speaking with auditors. During our review of the allowability of certain medical procedures and of procedures provided to undocumented aliens, we were never granted permission to speak with the medical consultants who had approval authority.

• The audit liaison system, as actually used by the Department, hindered our access to data and obstructed our contact with line staff. Additionally, the audit liaison system attempted to force us to rely on the Department's representations as to the existence or accuracy of evidence. In effect, the Department was attempting to perform the work of the auditor, instead of allowing the auditors to perform an independent audit and reach a valid conclusion.

• It is inappropriate for the Department to withhold information because it believes it is not relevant or significant. The auditor should be given the information requested and have an opportunity to examine it and discuss it with the Department before the auditor decides its importance.


The law empowers states to use Medicaid funds to cover “emergency” services for illegals. One of the emergency services covered is the delivery of babies. It is hard to imagine denying care to a woman being wheeled into an emergency room in labor. But, of course, providing care to women being wheeled into emergency rooms in labor was not the end of it. Bureaucracies like to grow, government bureaucracies are home to lots of Democrats, and illegal aliens provide a nice source of supplementary voters for Democrats in states such as — and let’s just pick two — California and Illinois.

So, rather than emergency deliveries being covered, pregnancy itself becomes an “emergency” condition, and Medicaid funds ended up getting used to pay for routine prenatal care and other services related to same. And then they began to be used for post-partum care, as well. The government’s own reportage documents lots of episodes in which federal funds have been used to subsidize illegals in contravention of existing statutes. On what grounds might we suppose that Obamacare would be any different? Especially if we consider that Republican efforts to help ensure that Obamacare might prove different were rejected? And might we be justified in asking the Democrats why, exactly, they voted against those measures? After all, if they are superfluous, they will have no real effect: If existing controls are sufficient, the illegals will be weeded out of the system well before they came up against these putative restrictions, no?

A GAO report finds that illegal immigrants constitute more than one-third of all Medicaid-funded pregnancies in California.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

spence and Johnny you are 100% correct.
there is no explicit language in the bill saying illegal immigrants will be covered.
but there is no language in welfare bills that illegals will be covered. No language in city/town laws that they can attend public schools. no explicit language in WIC or other taxpayed funded programs that they will be covered, but you know what? In many, many cases....they are! So why would any sensible person assume that they wont be covered by this?

Are you confusing Federal and State laws?

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Blame Reagan. He signed the bill into law that requires hospitals to provide service.

-spence

The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (42 U.S.C. § 1395dd, EMTALA) is a United States Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act. It requires hospitals and ambulance services to provide care to anyone needing emergency treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay. There are no reimbursement provisions. As a result of the act, patients needing emergency treatment can be discharged only under their own informed consent or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

Then why shoot down GOP amendments that prohibit Illegals from free health care? It will be in the bill Spence. They will be covered. Obama's not going to miss this opportunity to add voters to his herd.
Believe it or not. Your choice, fairy land or reality.

I'd be curious what the actual GOP amendment's wording was. Let's not forget how ridiculous the law drafting process can be.

**This is not an attack**
For instance, it is not legal to carry a firearm on federal park lands. Why? Because the GOP had the amendment inserted into the... Fair Debt Collection Practices Act???? How is that even applicable? (Even though I'm glad they did and agree with the policy 100%)

But this happens every day. No party is innocent. Thus, I wonder what the actual wording was.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I'd be curious what the actual GOP amendment's wording was. Let's not forget how ridiculous the law drafting process can be.

**This is not an attack**
For instance, it is not legal to carry a firearm on federal park lands. Why? Because the GOP had the amendment inserted into the... Fair Debt Collection Practices Act???? How is that even applicable? (Even though I'm glad they did and agree with the policy 100%)

But this happens every day. No party is innocent. Thus, I wonder what the actual wording was.

I can't believe I once thought you were one of the good guys.

[buckman]

Read it Spence and JD. This is far from a closed issue.

Health care talks focus on illegal immigrants - Yahoo! News

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Read it Spence and JD. This is far from a closed issue.

Health care talks focus on illegal immigrants - Yahoo! News

Not sure what the problem is. Obama has clearly stated he doesn't want to see this in the legislation...

But the House has a reason to put this in. If the law did require some illegals to get coverage why shouldn't they be able to buy into the gateway? They still wouldn't be receiving any Federal subsidies.

-spence