Political ThreadsThis section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:
wait.....the evil multi billion dollar corporation "begged" you to come back to work and then you got screwed in the final contract negotiations?....sounds like you need a better union...they screwed you
Indian Call Center workers BTW, make about 3 times the average wage in India and the jobs are highly sought after for a number of reasons, so while an American might not be able to live on the wages that are paid in "many" parts of the world recognizing that there are differences in standards of living and costs, many of the jobs that Americans create overseas improve the lives of many people...you do know that there are foreign companies that create jobs in the US as well and employ Americans, it's just not always as attractive to set up shop here....
Indian call centers are slowly getting smaller and smaller, nobody wants to talk to them anymore or hear the same boring script over and over. Their jobs are going away while lucrative US companies, not foreign are farming out the work for a reasonable wage here or noted corps are taking it back internally again and effectively.
Also higher level 'tier 2' support is getting farmed out here in the US and is a money maker for the giant corporations.
You do realize when Michael Dell took Dell back over he pulled back most of their sales & support? And that was.... alot of years ago.
That t-mobile outsourcing was over a year and a half ago.
But thats not sensational is it?
Like I said, the bottom rung is still being outsourced, and helping some customer with their cellphone is, well, bottom rung.
edit: clearly you didn't bother reading your article at all, because you would notice that those who outsource get shamed (won't happen if it passes), and those who don't get perks (will happen if it passes).
You do realize when Michael Dell took Dell back over he pulled back most of their sales & support? And that was.... alot of years ago.
That t-mobile outsourcing was over a year and a half ago.
But thats not sensational is it?
Like I said, the bottom rung is still being outsourced, and helping some customer with their cellphone is, well, bottom rung.
edit: clearly you didn't bother reading your article at all, because you would notice that those who outsource get shamed (won't happen if it passes), and those who don't get perks (will happen if it passes).
you are rambling....
what you said was.."Indian call centers are slowly getting smaller and smaller, nobody wants to talk to them anymore or hear the same boring script over and over."
there are more from the recent weeks if you'd like to be "current"....India and the Phillipines...which would dispute your claim that nobody wants to talk to them anymore and that their jobs are going away
you've wandered far from the original point which was the ridiculous wages comment by the specialist, to not make much of a point at all....
stating that those who purchase expensive (top rung) cellphones and service plans will somehow get better(top rung) service...is not really a revelation..... and it's more than just cell phone customer support
Wow, I didn't realize this was striped-bass.co.uk! Silly me!
So I assume you're a dirty inbred pom?
You haven't posted a single relevant article that supports your argument.
We'll just chock that up to you grasping for straws about something, once again, you have no clue or concept about.
Maybe you're a pikey?
I'll give you another chance to redeem yourself instead of flailing, show us the comparison of US based support and India support via Netpromoter scores (a globally recognized standard for scoring customer satisfaction).
Yesterday, in Detroit, a judge ruled that the city can proceed with bankruptcy, leaving open the likelihood that pensions will be cut. The unions are appealing. I want to ask these union jerks, WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE? Not enough money exists to satisfy the pensions. Should Detroit be given a printing press so they can print their own currency? What is the friggin alternative, when there is no money left? Do the unions want to tax the remaining residents at 95%?
Then, in Illinois of all places, the liberal legislature yesterday passed a bill that would make serious cuts to pensions.
It's the beginning of the end. In the vast majority of states (certainly in Connecticut), no public employee who is a Baby Boomer or younger is going to get the pension they are expecting.
It's this simple...you cannot have more than there is. I don't know from where this greed comes from that these union members exhibit, bit I have never seen anything like it. It turns out, you can't deduct 2% of your paycheck, and have that turn into a $45,000 pension for life at age 55. The math doesn't work. The math doesn't even come close to working.
Yesterday, in Detroit, a judge ruled that the city can proceed with bankruptcy, leaving open the likelihood that pensions will be cut. The unions are appealing. I want to ask these union jerks, WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE? Not enough money exists to satisfy the pensions. Should Detroit be given a printing press so they can print their own currency? What is the friggin alternative, when there is no money left? Do the unions want to tax the remaining residents at 95%?
Then, in Illinois of all places, the liberal legislature yesterday passed a bill that would make serious cuts to pensions.
It's the beginning of the end. In the vast majority of states (certainly in Connecticut), no public employee who is a Baby Boomer or younger is going to get the pension they are expecting.
It's this simple...you cannot have more than there is. I don't know from where this greed comes from that these union members exhibit, bit I have never seen anything like it. It turns out, you can't deduct 2% of your paycheck, and have that turn into a $45,000 pension for life at age 55. The math doesn't work. The math doesn't even come close to working.
good, screw him. My mom is a retired teacher who had to work 35 years before she was able to retire, this retiring after 20 years of work with 80% pay and able to save up all of your sick time,vaca time etc in able to pad your pension is BS.
good, screw him. My mom is a retired teacher who had to work 35 years before she was able to retire, this retiring after 20 years of work with 80% pay and able to save up all of your sick time,vaca time etc in able to pad your pension is BS.
No one relishes the idea of a public servent seeing benefits cut when it's too late in their careers to adjust for that. That being said, I don't see an alternative. Nor do I buy that the union meployees are completely innocent in this, because for dsecades, they have demonized politicians who spoke the truth, and elected politicians based on the promise that the impossible benefits wouled continue. These people have been warned for 35 years that this was coming, but trhey didn't want to hear it.
I don't think anybody here has successfully disputed Jim in Ct's original claims at the beginning of this thread, nor his claim that you cannot have more than there is.
There are underlying abstract notions of "equity" and "fairness" in disputes over employment. And there is an attempt to achieve those notions through a balance of power where self-interest is preserved against domination by the other party. The traditional union approach is through strength in alliance versus the power of employers.
In classical balance of power theory, ideally, both sides act relatively the same way toward the same goal. But in reality, most humans not being idealists, both sides seek and fight over advantages toward separate goals. That is one of the major problems with collective bargaining. Advantages are won or lost over time until it becomes too onerous for one or the other party, and outside solutions must happen, i.e., jobs are "shipped" elsewhere, or a business or municipality is shut down and disappears or declares bankruptcy in order to survive.
The collective bargaining model, I think, would be most successful "in-shop." That is, where no outside influence such as national or international, or other conglomerate union bargains for the employees, and no such structure, such as collusion, would exist to give the employer advantage. The reality of in-shop economy would be more likely to dictate the results of negotiation. That does not negate the human tendency to achieve advantage, but it makes it more possible to achieve realistic results. The size of the "shop" also dictates the ease of reaching agreement. The larger and more complex it is, the more difficult it is and the more likely it is to fail, at least over time, and to require outside "arbiters" to settle. Which implies the failure of collective bargaining.
There is also the problem of sovereignty. Supposedly, in our system of government, individuals are sovereign. Employees are each sovereign, and business owners are sovereign. An employer should not destroy the sovereignty of an employee, nor, conversely, should the employees destroy the sovereignty of the employer. There can only be agreement or a parting of ways. Collective bargaining dissolves the sovereignty of the employee, and it brings the power of a state-like entity in conflict with an employer who is thus no longer sovereign in ability to negotiate with individuals. Nor, then, is the property of the owner a sovereign right. It becomes capital to be distributed in ways that are deemed "equitable" or "fair" by a collective or, ultimately by an outside party such as an emissary of the State. Ownership ultimately becomes public, and private property lurches toward extinction.
In order to diminish the right of private ownership and transform it into public ownership, the power of government is necessary. That has been happening by bits and pieces in many aspects of our society. "Reality" has eroded the power of unions in the private sector and so has stemmed that portion of the tide of public into private intrusion. But it has not eliminated it. Union power has grown in the public sector where it is now the most "relevant." And that is the sector, having the power of government, which can intrude on the sovereignty of individuals to own private property. The public sector has become a collective which increasingly demands more and nationalizes more of the private sector and diminishes the sovereignty of its individuals.
The unions in the public sector will eventually, and maybe sooner rather than later, have to confront the reality Jim in Ct speaks of, and will eventually lose much of their collective power, but the crises they create will add to the notions of "equity" and "fairness" which unions have engendered in our society over the last century, and which have been ingrained in enough of the population, especially in younger generations taught so through our statist schools, so that more will constantly be demanded of the private sector and its supposed sovereign individuals to contribute and accede to the demands of the public collective.
Of course, that is the trajectory that is creating our unsustainable fiscal mess. Unfortunately, we can't "ship" our selves or our government elsewhere. But, maybe, "reality" will return us to the great nation we used to be.
Last edited by detbuch; 12-04-2013 at 08:59 PM..
Reason: typos
I don't think anybody here has successfully disputed Jim in Ct's original claims at the beginning of this thread, nor his claim that you cannot have more than there is.
.
I have many friends who are teachers. When I say 'you can't have more than there is", they always respond, and I mean every single time, with something along the lines of "you don't care what kind of teachers your kids have, or if your kids are illiterate, or if teachers are eating cat food.'
I think the initial post is misleading. The proposal made employee contributions to health care rise significantly and the pay increase was incremental at a few percent a year, not a 14+ percent one time raise.
I think the initial post is misleading. The proposal made employee contributions to health care rise significantly and the pay increase was incremental at a few percent a year, not a 14+ percent one time raise.
That's not a sweetheart deal.
-spence
"The proposal made employee contributions to health care rise significantly"
Rise to 10% of the cost of their healthcare. They were asking the mployees to pay fopr 10% of the cost of their healthcare. While that may be more than they are currently paying, it's still nowhere near what the average private sector worker pays (which is I believe 30% of the cost of helthcare).
"That's not a sweetheart deal."
Maybe not to a Bolshevik like you it's not. To the taxpayers who are paying for the deal, it sure seems like a sweetheart deal, because it's a hell of a lot more lavish than what they get.
The state of IL is in awful financial shape. As such, it's not in any position to offer "sweetheart" deals to its employees. As someone who claims to work in finance or business in some capacity, shouldn't you know this?
Just because you're in bad financial shape doesn't mean you don't have a government to operate. The deal looked to be a decrease in pay for healthcare offset somewhat by an incremental pay increase over the next 3 years. For many or most it's likely a net pay cut.
40% of the union members earn less than 30,000/yr.
This union represents those that work in the jail, nursing home, county health system, sheriff office etc…not exactly a lot of high paying jobs…and yet they show up day to day and get it done.
For this, you're outraged because you read a misleading FOX News story.
Just because you're in bad financial shape doesn't mean you don't have a government to operate. The deal looked to be a decrease in pay for healthcare offset somewhat by an incremental pay increase over the next 3 yearsFor many or most it's likely a net pay cut.
40% of the union members earn less than 30,000/yr.
This union represents those that work in the jail, nursing home, county health system, sheriff office etc…not exactly a lot of high paying jobs…and yet they show up day to day and get it done.
For this, you're outraged because you read a misleading FOX News story.
-spence
"Just because you're in bad financial shape doesn't mean you don't have a government to operate"
I didn't say the govt should shut down when it's in terrible financial shape. But when you're in terrible financial shape, you take steps to get your financial house in order.
"For many or most it's likely a net pay cut."
Speculation on your part. Even if that's true, and it's a big 'if', that's what happens when those who pay your salary are broke. A pay cut is better than a pink slip.
"40% of the union members earn less than 30,000/yr."
The state is bankrupt Spence. If the taxpayers can't afford to pay 40% of the union $30k a year (plus insanely cheap healthcare, which you conveniently left out), then they have to find ways to spend less. Simple as that.
"yet they show up day to day and get it done"
They also ensured that pro-union politicians would get elected, and thus perpetuate the downward spiral.
As I said, honest people have been warning about this for as long as I have been alive. Unions didn't want to hear it. If they had listened back then, the required fix would not be as severe.
You can't have more than there is. And you reap what you sow.
I didn't say the govt should shut down when it's in terrible financial shape. But when you're in terrible financial shape, you take steps to get your financial house in order.
The county seat of Will County is the fastest growing city in Illinois.
Quote:
Speculation on your part. Even if that's true, and it's a big 'if', that's what happens when those who pay your salary are broke. A pay cut is better than a pink slip.
No, it's math. Let's say your healthcare cost only 10,000 a year. If you're paying 5 wait now 10 percent of that per year the few percent of a 30,000 dollar salary isn't going to mean squat. Even with best case scenarios for wage increases you're not talking a lot more per month…
Does your health insurance cost more? Then you're screwed.
Quote:
The state is bankrupt Spence. If the taxpayers can't afford to pay 40% of the union $30k a year (plus insanely cheap healthcare, which you conveniently left out), then they have to find ways to spend less. Simple as that.
The union deal is with the county and not the state.
Quote:
They also ensured that pro-union politicians would get elected, and thus perpetuate the downward spiral.
As I said, honest people have been warning about this for as long as I have been alive. Unions didn't want to hear it. If they had listened back then, the required fix would not be as severe.
You can't have more than there is. And you reap what you sow.
And you can't grow if you can't provide basic services to the local economy. If anything this is trickle down economics. Invest in the infrastructure which promotes business growth.
The county seat of Will County is the fastest growing city in Illinois.
No, it's math. Let's say your healthcare cost only 10,000 a year. If you're paying 5 wait now 10 percent of that per year the few percent of a 30,000 dollar salary isn't going to mean squat. Even with best case scenarios for wage increases you're not talking a lot more per month…
Not sure what you're saying here, but didn't the county's offer call for those making $30,000 to pay 4.3 percent of salary for health insurance, and the higher ratios, 10% and 13.7% to apply for increasingly higher salaries?
Does your health insurance cost more? Then you're screwed.
Isn't Obamacare going to fix that?
And you can't grow if you can't provide basic services to the local economy. If anything this is trickle down economics. Invest in the infrastructure which promotes business growth.
Woa? Does that sound strange…I'll bet it does.
-spence
Wait, I thought you began by saying the county seat of Will County is the fastest growing city in Illinois? Wouldn't that be unlikely or "strange" to happen if the trickle down of providing basic services to the local economy and investment in the infrastructure to promote business growth wasn't already occurring?
Spence, what you are doing in this thread, as usual, is throwing one pro-union talking point after another, out there, hoping something will stick. When you rpoints are shown to be irrelevant, you simply move down your list to the next desperate explanation. It never occurs to you that if eeberything you say can be so easily refuted, perhaps you are on the wrong side of the issue.
My favorite...the county here, offered salary increases of 14.5%. In return, they asked employees to pay 10% of the cost of their healthcare (still a fraction of what those in the private scetor pay).
Your response? "Just because you're in bad financial shape doesn't mean you don't have a government to operate"
So in your mind, offering a 14.5% raise with increased healthcare copays, is equivalent to shutting the government down and firing all these people? How does one get so far detached from reality? Do you really, seriously, work in business in some capacity? Do your customers realize that you cannot differentiate between giving your employees a 14.5% raise, and shutting down th eoperation?
The county seat of Will County is the fastest growing city in Illinois.
No, it's math. Let's say your healthcare cost only 10,000 a year. If you're paying 5 wait now 10 percent of that per year the few percent of a 30,000 dollar salary isn't going to mean squat. Even with best case scenarios for wage increases you're not talking a lot more per month…
Does your health insurance cost more? Then you're screwed.
The union deal is with the county and not the state.
And you can't grow if you can't provide basic services to the local economy. If anything this is trickle down economics. Invest in the infrastructure which promotes business growth.
Woa? Does that sound strange…I'll bet it does.
-spence
"No, it's math. Let's say your healthcare cost only 10,000 a year. If you're paying 5 wait now 10 percent of that per year the few percent of a 30,000 dollar salary isn't going to mean squat."
Using your assumptions, let's say one makes $30,000 a year. Health insurance costs $10,000 a year. And the county is asking that your share of paying for that, increases from 5% to 10% of the cost.
Today, your share of healthcare costs is 5% x $10,000 = $500 a year.
Going forward, your share is 10% x $10,000 = $1,000 a year. So your net pay is reduced by $500 a year, since your out-of-pocket expenses have increased by $500 a year.
Now, at some point (article didn't say how long it would take) your $30,000 salary increases by $14.5%. That is an annual raise of $4,350. That raise is offset by the $500 more a year you pay for healthcare, so the net annual increase is $4,350 - $500 = $3,850.
To someone making $30,000 a year, that increase is certainly not "squat'".
Spence, what you are doing in this thread, as usual, is throwing one pro-union talking point after another, out there, hoping something will stick. When you rpoints are shown to be irrelevant, you simply move down your list to the next desperate explanation. It never occurs to you that if eeberything you say can be so easily refuted, perhaps you are on the wrong side of the issue.
I haven't thrown out a single talking point Jim, I'm just detailing what's actually in the proposal.
Also, you haven't refuted anything yet.
Quote:
My favorite...the county here, offered salary increases of 14.5%. In return, they asked employees to pay 10% of the cost of their healthcare (still a fraction of what those in the private scetor pay).
Your response? "Just because you're in bad financial shape doesn't mean you don't have a government to operate"
So in your mind, offering a 14.5% raise with increased healthcare copays, is equivalent to shutting the government down and firing all these people? How does one get so far detached from reality? Do you really, seriously, work in business in some capacity? Do your customers realize that you cannot differentiate between giving your employees a 14.5% raise, and shutting down th eoperation? .
The likely reason they have a low contribution to their health care premium is because most are so low wage to begin with. It's called a...are you ready?
"COMPENSATION PACKAGE"
When my wife worked at an autism non-profit they had excellent health benefits. Why? Because the pay was pretty low...
Compared to other union stories this one is a snooze...With all the serious stuff in the world you're going on a rampage against prison guards and nursing home workers.
Well, you said that the 14.5% raise, when coupled with the hike in out-of-pocket healthcare costs, wouldn't amount to "squat". I think we now know that's not true, don't we? Isn't it, in fact, a significant net increase?
Spence, you claim to work in business or finance, although I cannot begin to imagine in what capacity. If an entity is spending more than it takes in, does it not need to address that at some point? At some point, doesn't mathematical reality trump idealism when you are drowning in red ink?
You can go on and on and on about how these people are being mistreated, and how awful it is that their salaries are so low. What you never do, what no liberal ever does, is propose a specific, somewhat-realistic way to pay for the goodies you feel obligated to distribute on my behalf.
"No, it's math. Let's say your healthcare cost only 10,000 a year. If you're paying 5 wait now 10 percent of that per year the few percent of a 30,000 dollar salary isn't going to mean squat."
Using your assumptions, let's say one makes $30,000 a year. Health insurance costs $10,000 a year. And the county is asking that your share of paying for that, increases from 5% to 10% of the cost.
Today, your share of healthcare costs is 5% x $10,000 = $500 a year.
Going forward, your share is 10% x $10,000 = $1,000 a year. So your net pay is reduced by $500 a year, since your out-of-pocket expenses have increased by $500 a year.
Now, at some point (article didn't say how long it would take) your $30,000 salary increases by $14.5%. That is an annual raise of $4,350. That raise is offset by the $500 more a year you pay for healthcare, so the net annual increase is $4,350 - $500 = $3,850.
To someone making $30,000 a year, that increase is certainly not "squat'".
What did I miss, Spence?
You didn't do your homework. The 10% number is an average of all Will County employees. The county uses a progressive scale so the lower earners pay less and the higher earners pay more, but the proposal had the lower earners paying a higher ratio of their salary to health care.
Not every county employee is part of the union and I think we'd both agree it's a safe wager that the union represents the bulk of the lower earners.
So in effect the deal appears to have been disproportionately impacting the lower wage unionized employees and as such they didn't like it.
Not sure what you're saying here, but didn't the county's offer call for those making $30,000 to pay 4.3 percent of salary for health insurance, and the higher ratios, 10% and 13.7% to apply for increasingly higher salaries?
Correct, when I said "that" I mean of the salary and not the premium.
Quote:
Isn't Obamacare going to fix that?
It should address it but not overnight.
Quote:
Wait, I thought you began by saying the county seat of Will County is the fastest growing city in Illinois? Wouldn't that be unlikely or "strange" to happen if the trickle down of providing basic services to the local economy and investment in the infrastructure to promote business growth wasn't already occurring?
I never said the unions needed to get what they wanted to create growth. Rather, as far as IL goes they appear to be in a better position than most.
You didn't do your homework. The 10% number is an average of all Will County employees. The county uses a progressive scale so the lower earners pay less and the higher earners pay more, but the proposal had the lower earners paying a higher ratio of their salary to health care.
Not every county employee is part of the union and I think we'd both agree it's a safe wager that the union represents the bulk of the lower earners.
So in effect the deal appears to have been disproportionately impacting the lower wage unionized employees and as such they didn't like it.
-spence
Oh, I see.
So when you said they wouldn't get "squat", I'm sure you did a similar calculation using the accurate specifics for the lowewr wage earners. Can you send me a link that has the assumptions that you used for the lower workers? I want to make sure that I understand.
"they didn't like it."
They don't have to like it. They have to either accept it, or find another job with pay they like more. Average wages are down bigtime since Obama took control. No one likes that. But rational people realize that the economy stinks, and wages go down in a stinky economy (unless you are in a union, I oresume, in which case it's never acceptable to get anything other than a blank check).
Spence, show me a proposal that makes those people "happy" that doesn't bankrupt the citizenry. If you can't do that, then I wish you and your union bretheren would accept what everyone else accepts...that none of us makes as much as we would like.
Gimme, gimme, gimme...
Last edited by Jim in CT; 12-05-2013 at 01:49 PM..
So when you said they wouldn't get "squat", I'm sure you did a similar calculation using the accurate specifics for the lowewr wage earners. Can you send me a link that has the assumptions that you used for the lower workers? I want to make sure that I understand.
"they didn't like it."
They don't have to like it. They have to either accept it, or find another job with pay they like more. Average wages are down bigtime since Obama took control. No one likes that. But rational people realize that the economy stinks, and wages go down in a stinky economy (unless you are in a union, I oresume, in which case it's never acceptable to get anything other than a blank check).
Spence, show me a proposal that makes those people "happy" that doesn't bankrupt the citizenry. If you can't do that, then I wish you and your union bretheren would accept what everyone else accepts...that none of us makes as much as we would like.
Gimme, gimme, gimme...
Yea, those greedy nursing home workers that get to change the bed pans of those who can't afford to be at club med. Will County should be outsourcing the jobs to the lowest bidder. Perhaps they could save a dollar an hour.
No, it's math. Let's say your healthcare cost only 10,000 a year. If you're paying 5 wait now 10 percent of that per year the few percent of a 30,000 dollar salary isn't going to mean squat. Even with best case scenarios for wage increases you're not talking a lot more per month…
-spence
Actually, what employees paid under the old contract was 1% of their salary for health insurance and 2% for family coverage. So under the old contract, if insurance only cost $10,000/year, a single person whose salary was $30,000 would pay only $300/year for insurance, and for family coverage the cost would be $600/year. Wow, that is nice?
The County's proposal for a new contract was 4.7%, not of the salary for someone making $30,000, but 4.7% of the insurance cost. So, the cost for a $30,000/year employee's $10,000 insurance would by $470 per year. Wow, still pretty nice. Times are tough, but I guess asking someone to pay an extra $170/year for insurance is just too mean. Actually, $300 a MONTH ain't too bad nowadays. But public employees do deserve a better deal than the rest of us. A really much better deal.
Apparently they've settled. Would be interesting to see how that turned out.
The 10,000 was a hypothetical, the plans offered by the appear to cost twice as much…the 600 dollars for a family plan would still increase more than the scheduled pay increase at a lower salary.
And as I said before, it's the package that's the consideration. Health Insurance is the same thing as money. If you want me to pay more for my insurance you'd better give me a raise to compensate or after years of stagnation I'm getting a pay cut.
County workers aren't the same as the free market. Without a sense of stability the local government can't function.
And you can't grow if you can't provide basic services to the local economy. If anything this is trickle down economics. Invest in the infrastructure which promotes business growth.
Woa? Does that sound strange…I'll bet it does.
Then later you said: "I never said the unions needed to get what they wanted to create growth. Rather, as far as IL goes they appear to be in better position than most.
-spence
Why would you throw in a comment, then, that had nothing to do with the thread? And it might well be that Will County is in better position than most because it tries to keep its costs under control. In regard to the pre-strike negotiations the County Executive, Walsh, said "I have a responsibility to all residents and taxpayers of Will County. There is only so much money for the County's many needs. We must not only address our employees salaries and benefits requests, but also invest in critical infrastructure projects that benefit all our residents. We have a responsibility to be good stewards of the revenues that come into the county. That means not letting our buildings fall into further disrepair or failing to make investments for the future."
I assume you meant Will County, not IL when you said they appear to be in better position than most. Illinois is far from being in better position than most. Even the Illinois Democrats are seeing the light of fiscal necessity. The Democrat governor just signed a pension reform into law, which the unions, of course, will fight: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...5?feedType=RSS
So the executive of Will County was looking out for growth in ways you approve and bargaining a contract that aimed for fiscal responsibility.
At least . . . I guess so. Politicians are such in your face liars now . . . and unions fight lying fire with lying fire . . . I guess.
Linear Mode
