President Trump is leading on the world stage at the NATO meetings.

[Pete F.]

There's always at least one tweet

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
We need a President who isn't a laughing stock to the entire World. We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect!
3:30 AM · Aug 9, 2014·Twitter for Android

I can’t remember the last time anyone, let alone a president of the United States, was laughed off a continent.

It’s worth observing, as Floridaman stalks off early from the NATO summit because his deeply sensitive personal feelings were hurt, that we’re all old enough to remember he criticized the House for holding an impeachment hearing during the important business of that summit.

[Sea Dangles]

He is clearly the greatest president of our lifetime
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

He is clearly the greatest president of our lifetime
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

WE ARE WELL AWARE HOW LOW YOUR STANDARDS ARE WHEN IT COMES TO POTUS

[Sea Dangles]

Just as we are all well aware of how most on the board view him, Wayne.

But that doesn’t seem to stop people ( like you) from expressing their opinion.
My expectations were lowered by his predecessor.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

There's always at least one tweet

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
We need a President who isn't a laughing stock to the entire World. We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect!
3:30 AM · Aug 9, 2014·Twitter for Android

I can’t remember the last time anyone, let alone a president of the United States, was laughed off a continent.

It’s worth observing, as Floridaman stalks off early from the NATO summit because his deeply sensitive personal feelings were hurt, that we’re all old enough to remember he criticized the House for holding an impeachment hearing during the important business of that summit.

I have to laugh at the pompous, self-important cockiness of Canadian and European "World Leaders." Or is it just that Trump hurts their feelings?

Still haven't found that Trump said he would not commit to article 5. I Kind of like his criticisms of NATO. They are honest criticisms, not snide backbiting ploys to destroy it. Calling it obsolete may be too general, but some specifics may well be. It certainly is not a call to scrap it, but a call to fix it. Not contributing fair economic share seems like something that should be pointed out. It's apparently OK, though, for the superior other "World Leaders," like Macron, to criticize NATO.

Would it be a good thing if the U.S. was kicked out of NATO and the superior Europeans took on its burden entirely themselves. The superior European "World Leaders" have always sort of looked at the U.S. as an overgrown somewhat boorish, unsophisticated and backward looking adolescent. No doubt Europe's superior thinkers could do a bang up job of protecting themselves. Well . . . you know . . . after they all got on the same page and quit criticizing each other.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I have to laugh at the pompous, self-important cockiness of Canadian and European "World Leaders." Or is it just that Trump hurts their feelings?

Still haven't found that Trump said he would not commit to article 5. I Kind of like his criticisms of NATO. They are honest criticisms, not snide backbiting ploys to destroy it. Calling it obsolete may be too general, but some specifics may well be. It certainly is not a call to scrap it, but a call to fix it. Not contributing fair economic share seems like something that should be pointed out. It's apparently OK, though, for the superior other "World Leaders," like Macron, to criticize NATO.

Would it be a good thing if the U.S. was kicked out of NATO and the superior Europeans took on its burden entirely themselves. The superior European "World Leaders" have always sort of looked at the U.S. as an overgrown somewhat boorish, unsophisticated and backward looking adolescent. No doubt Europe's superior thinkers could do a bang up job of protecting themselves. Well . . . you know . . . after they all got on the same page and quit criticizing each other.

the pompous, self-important cockiness of Canadian and European "World Leaders."

that's a comical statement seeing you dont mind Trumps pompous, self-important cockiness..

This incident speaks volumes more about Trump the thoses Leaders and how he has squandered American credibility you reap what you sow

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

the pompous, self-important cockiness of Canadian and European "World Leaders."

that's a comical statement seeing you dont mind Trumps pompous, self-important cockiness..

This incident speaks volumes more about Trump the thoses Leaders and how he has squandered American credibility you reap what you sow

how has our credibility been hurt, exactly? is the world
no longer helping us when we ask for help? is the world no longer expecting us to lead? is our
influence noticeably diminished?

I have no doubt that European leaders preferred Obama
to Trump. I’m sure thats the case. But so what? What’s the practical impact?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

Floridaman is surprised when, after three years of insulting our allies, they do not put up with his baloney.

Start with the recent reduction in our NATO expenditure. Before that, he announced new tariffs on Argentine and Brazilian imports, along with a renewed threat of tariffs against French imports. On top of tariffs on Canadian, Mexican, and European imports. On top of demanding that South Korea to pay more for America’s military presence on the peninsula. On top of calling our southern neighbors rapists and murderers. On top of picking fights with the leaders of friendly nations, such as Germany, France, and Canada. On top of saying that he is “in love” with enemies, such as Kim Jong-Un. On top of insulting friends, as he did when he cancelled a state visit to Denmark because the country would not entertain the idea of selling Greenland to him. On top of pulling out of everything but porn stars.

That is where American foreign policy is at.

When we were THE SUPERPOWER we were the judge, the jury and the executioner. Pretty hard to beat that.
Have we not had the biggest and best economy in the world, do you have any clue why?

We have no angry neighbors, think about the rest of the world. With the exception of Australia and the Americas there are active conflicts everywheres.

We don't worry about an armed invasion at our borders, instead we have to fear poor people coming here for opportunity.

This is because we have worked towards this for generations and won, time after time, not by being an overt bully but by being a friend, ally and if needed speaking softly while holding a big stick.

China has been begging the Argentines, Brazilians, and other states in our hemisphere to let them to invest in their countries.

South Korea just signed a security agreement with China.

Russia recently hosted many African nations, has forces involved in conflicts there and forgave their debt, do you think they did that just to be nice?

France is saying perhaps they should along with the rest of Europe, just militarize and go it alone.
Until 70+ years ago there was war after war in Europe, is it to our advantage to let them militarize again?
Some fools think that would be to our advantage, history does not.
Do you think that the last world war would not result, we would just sit back and watch, then deal with the victor?

What we do to secure the world is far cheaper than war and less than having every country maintaining an army while we have to maintain one that can defend us from any combination thereof.

If you think the cost of what we do is a lot, what is the cost of war or maintaining that any eventuality army?

If we alienate our allies and then remove our forward bases, we do not have the transportation to react to problems worldwide and will be far weaker.

The weak lose, every time, sooner or later.

If you don't think so look at the British Empire, it once controlled the world. Now it is trying to not be a state in the EU.

Floridaman has no clue what the results of what he is doing will be, it's not a real estate deal that if it doesn't work out he can move on to the next one. You can't just bankrupt the country, screw the creditors and move on to the next turkey. Diplomacy is not transactional, if it was any any snake oil salesman could do it.

The sooner he's gone the better.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

how has our credibility been hurt, exactly? is the world
no longer helping us when we ask for help? is the world no longer expecting us to lead? is our
influence noticeably diminished?

I have no doubt that European leaders preferred Obama
to Trump. I’m sure thats the case. But so what? What’s the practical impact?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

again its not about whos in the oval office it's About how the world sees America.. and they see America Via the POTUS words and actions

demanding respect without giving respect thats Trump.. and the world understands

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

it's About how the world sees America..

brings tears to your eyes...

On Thanksgiving Day (in the evening, actually) Hong Kong protesters decided to sing the American national anthem as a gesture of thanks for President Trump signing two bills into law Wednesday that condemned China. When they were done with "The Star-Spangled Banner," the protesters chanted "USA, USA, USA."

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

the pompous, self-important cockiness of Canadian and European "World Leaders."

that's a comical statement seeing you dont mind Trumps pompous, self-important cockiness..

This incident speaks volumes more about Trump the thoses Leaders and how he has squandered American credibility you reap what you sow

I appreciate your "interpretation." But the fact is I know what I meant. You, apparently don't. Perhaps I was too subtle. Or perhaps your ideology sways your thinking.

The Pompous European "World Leader's" self-assured superiority allows themselves the license to mock others while they are blind to the clowns they themselves are. If they had the honesty and integrity and actual unity of more than fear but of purpose and common beliefs, they would not need the U.S. They could be the richest most powerful union on the planet.

Instead, they cower behind U.S. might while mocking us behind our back. Trump is no less egotistical than any of them, but he certainly is no more so. They like submissive American leaders who are willing to cow to, or are in line with, their supposedly clearer and more rational notions of how NATO and its European contingents are to function.

The fact is, it is Europe that has squandered its blood and treasure for centuries. And they still don't know how to unite against self destruction. That they need the U.S. to support them attests to their own weakness and ignorance. Whatever failures and weakness that NATO and the EU have is not the fault of the U.S. as much, if at all, as it is the fault of the Europeans themselves.

It is they who are reaping the fruits of their timidity, ignorance, and lack of cohesion. It is they who are the adolescents who don't know how to manage their affairs well enough to realize their potential.

If anything, Trump is scolding them to grow up.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I appreciate your "interpretation." But the fact is I know what I meant. You, apparently don't. Perhaps I was too subtle. Or perhaps your ideology sways your thinking.

The Pompous European "World Leader's" self-assured superiority allows themselves the license to mock others while they are blind to the clowns they themselves are. If they had the honesty and integrity and actual unity of more than fear but of purpose and common beliefs, they would not need the U.S. They could be the richest most powerful union on the planet.

Instead, they cower behind U.S. might while mocking us behind our back. Trump is no less egotistical than any of them, but he certainly is no more so. They like submissive American leaders who are willing to cow to, or are in line with, their supposedly clearer and more rational notions of how NATO and its European contingents are to function.

The fact is, it is Europe that has squandered its blood and treasure for centuries. And they still don't know how to unite against self destruction. That they need the U.S. to support them attests to their own weakness and ignorance. Whatever failures and weakness that NATO and the EU have is not the fault of the U.S. as much, if at all, as it is the fault of the Europeans themselves.

It is they who are reaping the fruits of their timidity, ignorance, and lack of cohesion. It is they who are the adolescents who don't know how to manage their affairs well enough to realize their potential.

If anything, Trump is scolding them to grow up.

To funny they never mentioned Trump by name.. yet everyone including you clearly got their intent..

Yet all thoses who testified in the impeachment hearings.. couldn't figure out Trumps intent.. funny how that works
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

When Boris Johnson is making fun of you, wow, that's gotta hurt.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

When Boris Johnson is making fun of you, wow, that's gotta hurt.

sticks and stones...

The NATO secretary general says that since Trump has been POTUS, other members are paying a larger share of NATO expenses.

Why are they doing that? Because they don’t like Trump?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

sticks and stones...

The NATO secretary general says that since Trump has been POTUS, other members are paying a larger share of NATO expenses.

Why are they doing that? Because they don’t like Trump?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Didn't they agree to do that bf Trump was President?

[spence]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Didn't they agree to do that bf Trump was President?

In 2014 under Obama

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

In 2014 under Obama

The NATO members are payong more now, than they did then. I gess it's all thanks to Obama's momentum.

Everything good that's happening, is because Obama started the momentum. everything bad, Trump owns 100%.

Is that about right? Are there any exceptions to that rule in your mind? Any?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Didn't they agree to do that bf Trump was President?

Agreeing and doing art not the same. They were not living up to their so-called agreement.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Didn't they agree to do that bf Trump was President?

Try to pay attention.


I’m glad trump doesn’t take any crap from the euroweenies
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

Wow is right
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

It’s called AMERICA 1ST
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Floridaman is surprised when, after three years of insulting our allies, they do not put up with his baloney.

Doubt if he is surprised. But, of course, you always know what REALLY is in his mind. Anyway, Trump has put up with insults from them and us for years. He has proffered some reasonable "baloney" such as paying the agreed upon share of NATO expenses. Some seem insulted by such a notion.

Start with the recent reduction in our NATO expenditure.

Don't know much about that, but if the expenditure was too high, especially in comparison with others who didn't live up to agreements, sounds like good idea.

Before that, he announced new tariffs on Argentine and Brazilian imports, along with a renewed threat of tariffs against French imports. On top of tariffs on Canadian, Mexican, and European imports.

The tariffs are not willy-nilly just for spite. They are efforts to achieve an economic quid pro quo. Plus the new trade agreements Trump made with Canada and Mexico that supposedly make things more fair for all are being held up from being ratified by the Democrats.

On top of demanding that South Korea to pay more for America’s military presence on the peninsula.

SK owes its existence and prosperity and security to the U.S. It has become an economic powerhouse and should be able to share in the costs of continuing its status and freedom. And it understands that. And it understands that the less it depends on the U.S., the more independent and freer it can be.

On top of calling our southern neighbors rapists and murderers.

When you resort to this false talking point, you lose what little credibility you may have had to this point of your post. He correctly referred to some who came from their countries. And you know that.

On top of picking fights with the leaders of friendly nations, such as Germany, France, and Canada.

Your credibility slides further away. Slanting verbiage from disagreements to "fights" is unnecessary negative drama.

On top of saying that he is “in love” with enemies, such as Kim Jong-Un.

Yeah, real "love" like trying to make Kim give up his nukes. Hey, we should love our enemies. Using "hate" language against them would be against our new values.

Those of us who understand Trump and Trump speak, don't take everything he says literally. You others insist on doing so when it can be twisted into orange man bad.

On top of insulting friends, as he did when he cancelled a state visit to Denmark because the country would not entertain the idea of selling Greenland to him. On top of pulling out of everything but porn stars.

Actually, the U.S. (Truman floated the idea of buying Greenland) isn't the only country interested in at least a piece of Greenland. Russia, China, and Canada would like to have some of it. Doubt if he canceled the meeting because of that. He did reschedule it, didn't he? And the pulling out of everything (Trumpian exaggeration on your part?) except porn stars is an uncalled for and exaggerated comment. But fits your hate.

That is where American foreign policy is at.

That's not even close to where American foreign policy is. And you know that. Or maybe you're stupid.


When we were THE SUPERPOWER we were the judge, the jury and the executioner. Pretty hard to beat that.

Wow, and even the "executioner"? Sounds ominous and dictatorial. Sounds like something Trump would jokingly say. Are you serious? And we still are THE SUPERPOWER. Trump hasn't changed that.

Have we not had the biggest and best economy in the world, do you have any clue why?

We still do and more so under Trump policies.

We have no angry neighbors, think about the rest of the world. With the exception of Australia and the Americas there are active conflicts everywheres.

Ugh . . . yeah, we have angry neighbors. Especially south of the border, and there are a lot of active conflicts there. Supposedly that's the reason for so many illegal aliens.

We don't worry about an armed invasion at our borders, instead we have to fear poor people coming here for opportunity.

yeah we do have to worry about that invasion which is an economic, political, social, and divisive burden we bear, especially born by the lowest spectrum of our society.

This is because we have worked towards this for generations and won, time after time, not by being an overt bully but by being a friend, ally and if needed speaking softly while holding a big stick.

Yeah we were often a bully (that's one of the reasons for the big stick). We've certainly been called a bully. Sometimes we need to be. And we did lose sometimes.

China has been begging the Argentines, Brazilians, and other states in our hemisphere to let them to invest in their countries.

Yeah, that's been their plan, before Trump. If the Brazilians go full socialism that might happen. There may be enough smart folks in control of those countries that know such a thing would make them a subsidiary in debt to China.

South Korea just signed a security agreement with China.

Understandable. They know they need security from the big monster next to them which wants to control or annex all the Asian, as well as other if possible, Pacific Rim countries. Hopefully, SK knows that China does not honor agreements or treaties unless they are forced to by a bigger power.

Russia recently hosted many African nations, has forces involved in conflicts there and forgave their debt, do you think they did that just to be nice?

Nope. Like with China.

France is saying perhaps they should along with the rest of Europe, just militarize and go it alone.

So are you afraid of Europe?

Until 70+ years ago there was war after war in Europe, is it to our advantage to let them militarize again?

You're implying here that the old divisions and hates are still latent in Europe and that if the countries were fully armed all the old European wars would resume--and these are the geniuses that mock Trump and whom we must admire when they do?

Some fools think that would be to our advantage, history does not.
Do you think that the last world war would not result, we would just sit back and watch, then deal with the victor?

Well, if they were foolish enough to do that, we could wait it out and save a lot of American blood and treasure. Russia and China could step in and eat up the spoils. Imagine all the different East and West European nationalities being under the control of Russia and China (Russia and China might well have their own territorial and economic differences). It would be an unwieldly mess, and an economic burden beyond the ability of Russia and China to bear.

The U.S. might well be the stabilizing influence in this world of animosities and conflicting political ideologies. But it won't be so if we become another centralized state like them, with the same politically authoritarian tendencies. And the only way, which we now know of, to keep us from becoming that is to adhere to constitutional principles rather than transforming into a Progressive centralized state like most of Europe, Russia, and China.

What we do to secure the world is far cheaper than war and less than having every country maintaining an army while we have to maintain one that can defend us from any combination thereof.

Sounds like you mean "control" rather than "secure." But "secure" does sound nicer and more friendly. It seems to me that you're usually into nice sounding things over harsh substance. But your post here seems to be recognizing a harsher reality that needs adherence over nice, friendly, fakery in the form of tact or diplomacy which doesn't hurt feelings and doesn't seem insulting. Except, of course, when Trump uses the feelings, tact, diplomacy, ploys in negotiating with adversaries he is, for you, being a traitor.


If you think the cost of what we do is a lot, what is the cost of war or maintaining that any eventuality army?

We cannot "secure" a world that has different foundational principles and goals than we do. Either they become like us, or we like them. Then security is more compatible and more feasible. If, at our costs (material as well as those beyond money that make up what we are in spirit), we secure those who value us mostly because of security and economic advantage, we spend our treasure on those who may turn on us at whim or pretense of being insulted. True family members, who may quarrel in high voices, will defend each other no matter the insults or hurt feelings they cast at each other so long as they value the family.

We can only secure ourselves and those who are with us come hell or high water. If Europeans are lost to us as allies because of some things Trump says or some minor economic squabbles, then they are not truly our allies.

I suspect that Europe will abandon us only when its values run deeply counter to ours. Which may not be far from the case now.

If we alienate our allies and then remove our forward bases, we do not have the transportation to react to problems worldwide and will be far weaker.

If we are not allowed forward bases, it is because allowing them to us it will be of no value or of negative value to those who own them. Or, perhaps, because they are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Again, alienating a true ally takes more than Trump type "insults." And if they are true allies in spirit as well as matter, than we should be able to trust them to be fully armed and willing to do some, or all, of that which we would do from those bases.

The weak lose, every time, sooner or later.

Among other things, weakness comes from lack of solidarity. Tsung Tzu taught how a smaller force could overcome a larger one simply by sticking together in all out combat against those who are about to destroy you, but have not the same ferocious need to fight to the death to survive.

When we become the big force, the big brother, who protects the smaller guy, the smaller remains weak and the bigger is weakened by lack of solidarity and the overall desire to fight.

We are not strengthened by alliances with weak dependents. But if we are to protect them, then they must at least be dependable, not some frightened twits who turn on you at the slightest presumed insult.

If you don't think so look at the British Empire, it once controlled the world. Now it is trying to not be a state in the EU.

To a great extent, Britain lost faith in itself. It lost its principles and innate identity. It became part of the Progressive world of nations. There is still a remnant, maybe even a large one that would like to restore that identity, not the empire. That remnant is what wants to break away from the EU. From being sucked into the all-powerful vortex of a single, politically centralized Europe.

Floridaman has no clue what the results of what he is doing will be, it's not a real estate deal that if it doesn't work out he can move on to the next one. You can't just bankrupt the country, screw the creditors and move on to the next turkey. Diplomacy is not transactional, if it was any any snake oil salesman could do it.

The sooner he's gone the better.

He is not treating it as if failure is just a reason to move on to the next one. He is doggedly trying to prevent failure and energetically, laboriously, unrelentingly, trying to gain success. That being made tremendously more difficult by the "resistance" here at home.

The sooner he is gone the more likely we return to the pre-Trump status quo with the rapid rise of China to world dominance and our cow-towing to its rape of our wealth and redistribution of it into so called "investments" in the third world which in effect makes those countries colonies to provide all the resources and land mass that will make it the boogey man you fear.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
Floridaman is surprised when, after three years of insulting our allies, they do not put up with his baloney.

Doubt if he is surprised. But, of course, you always know what REALLY is in his mind. Anyway, Trump has put up with insults from them and us for years. He has proffered some reasonable "baloney" such as paying the agreed upon share of NATO expenses. Some seem insulted by such a notion.
Why then did he run home?

Start with the recent reduction in our NATO expenditure.

Don't know much about that, but if the expenditure was too high, especially in comparison with others who didn't live up to agreements, sounds like good idea.
I've noticed you only pay attention to things that favor your position

Before that, he announced new tariffs on Argentine and Brazilian imports, along with a renewed threat of tariffs against French imports. On top of tariffs on Canadian, Mexican, and European imports.

The tariffs are not willy-nilly just for spite. They are efforts to achieve an economic quid pro quo. Plus the new trade agreements Trump made with Canada and Mexico that supposedly make things more fair for all are being held up from being ratified by the Democrats.

If you’re concerned about China’s growing economic influence in Latin America, imposing tariffs is at best counterproductive.

On top of demanding that South Korea to pay more for America’s military presence on the peninsula.

SK owes its existence and prosperity and security to the U.S. It has become an economic powerhouse and should be able to share in the costs of continuing its status and freedom. And it understands that. And it understands that the less it depends on the U.S., the more independent and freer it can be.
The minute Floridaman comes close to fulfilling the threat that he will close US bases in SK, they will withdraw from the joint intelligence treaty and further ally with China. They have already threatened that.


On top of calling our southern neighbors rapists and murderers.

When you resort to this false talking point, you lose what little credibility you may have had to this point of your post. He correctly referred to some who came from their countries. And you know that.
You know exactly what he said, just like Trumplicans are deplorable, but some are good people.

On top of picking fights with the leaders of friendly nations, such as Germany, France, and Canada.

Your credibility slides further away. Slanting verbiage from disagreements to "fights" is unnecessary negative drama. Trying to bully someone is picking a fight.

On top of saying that he is “in love” with enemies, such as Kim Jong-Un.

Yeah, real "love" like trying to make Kim give up his nukes. Hey, we should love our enemies. Using "hate" language against them would be against our new values.

Those of us who understand Trump and Trump speak, don't take everything he says literally. You others insist on doing so when it can be twisted into orange man bad.

The President of the United States is supposed to be a natural born citizen and should not require a translator to be understood.

On top of insulting friends, as he did when he cancelled a state visit to Denmark because the country would not entertain the idea of selling Greenland to him. On top of pulling out of everything but porn stars.

Actually, the U.S. (Truman floated the idea of buying Greenland) isn't the only country interested in at least a piece of Greenland. Russia, China, and Canada would like to have some of it. Doubt if he canceled the meeting because of that. He did reschedule it, didn't he? And the pulling out of everything (Trumpian exaggeration on your part?) except porn stars is an uncalled for and exaggerated comment. But fits your hate.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Denmark is a very special country with incredible people, but based on Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen’s comments, that she would have no interest in discussing the purchase of Greenland, I will be postponing our meeting scheduled in two weeks for another time....
7:51 PM · Aug 20, 2019

That is where American foreign policy is at.

That's not even close to where American foreign policy is. And you know that. Or maybe you're stupid.

Nobody in this country knows what Floridaman is doing next, good luck with that.

When we were THE SUPERPOWER we were the judge, the jury and the executioner. Pretty hard to beat that.

Wow, and even the "executioner"? Sounds ominous and dictatorial. Sounds like something Trump would jokingly say. Are you serious? And we still are THE SUPERPOWER. Trump hasn't changed that.
He is moving us further away by reducing alliances, lots of combinations exceed our strength. https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

Have we not had the biggest and best economy in the world, do you have any clue why?

We still do and more so under Trump policies.
Nothing lasts forever and willy nilly is not a plan

We have no angry neighbors, think about the rest of the world. With the exception of Australia and the Americas there are active conflicts everywheres.

Ugh . . . yeah, we have angry neighbors. Especially south of the border, and there are a lot of active conflicts there. Supposedly that's the reason for so many illegal aliens.
No armed conflict, crime yes driven largely by US drug markets

We don't worry about an armed invasion at our borders, instead we have to fear poor people coming here for opportunity.

yeah we do have to worry about that invasion which is an economic, political, social, and divisive burden we bear, especially born by the lowest spectrum of our society.
How's that fence working out?

This is because we have worked towards this for generations and won, time after time, not by being an overt bully but by being a friend, ally and if needed speaking softly while holding a big stick.

Yeah we were often a bully (that's one of the reasons for the big stick). We've certainly been called a bully. Sometimes we need to be. And we did lose sometimes.
We have never been a bully, Floridaman is a bully and bullies are easy to beat, they run when confronted by hard choices like Turkey, Syria and Erdogan.

China has been begging the Argentines, Brazilians, and other states in our hemisphere to let them to invest in their countries.

Yeah, that's been their plan, before Trump. If the Brazilians go full socialism that might happen. There may be enough smart folks in control of those countries that know such a thing would make them a subsidiary in debt to China.

South Korea just signed a security agreement with China.

Understandable. They know they need security from the big monster next to them which wants to control or annex all the Asian, as well as other if possible, Pacific Rim countries. Hopefully, SK knows that China does not honor agreements or treaties unless they are forced to by a bigger power.
See above

Russia recently hosted many African nations, has forces involved in conflicts there and forgave their debt, do you think they did that just to be nice?

Nope. Like with China.

France is saying perhaps they should along with the rest of Europe, just militarize and go it alone.

So are you afraid of Europe?

Until 70+ years ago there was war after war in Europe, is it to our advantage to let them militarize again?

You're implying here that the old divisions and hates are still latent in Europe and that if the countries were fully armed all the old European wars would resume--and these are the geniuses that mock Trump and whom we must admire when they do?
And you think the old divisions and hates have disappeared?

Some fools think that would be to our advantage, history does not.
Do you think that the last world war would not result, we would just sit back and watch, then deal with the victor?

Well, if they were foolish enough to do that, we could wait it out and save a lot of American blood and treasure. Russia and China could step in and eat up the spoils. Imagine all the different East and West European nationalities being under the control of Russia and China (Russia and China might well have their own territorial and economic differences). It would be an unwieldly mess, and an economic burden beyond the ability of Russia and China to bear.
Dealing with a combined force is the biggest military threat to the US and thinking that we could just sit out a world war is juvenile thinking at best.

The U.S. might well be the stabilizing influence in this world of animosities and conflicting political ideologies. But it won't be so if we become another centralized state like them, with the same politically authoritarian tendencies. And the only way, which we now know of, to keep us from becoming that is to adhere to constitutional principles rather than transforming into a Progressive centralized state like most of Europe, Russia, and China.
Floridaman is not an authoritarian? He wants to control world trade and choose who in the US succeeds by allocating tariff exclusions and that sort of baloney goes on and on.

What we do to secure the world is far cheaper than war and less than having every country maintaining an army while we have to maintain one that can defend us from any combination thereof.

Sounds like you mean "control" rather than "secure." But "secure" does sound nicer and more friendly. It seems to me that you're usually into nice sounding things over harsh substance. But your post here seems to be recognizing a harsher reality that needs adherence over nice, friendly, fakery in the form of tact or diplomacy which doesn't hurt feelings and doesn't seem insulting. Except, of course, when Trump uses the feelings, tact, diplomacy, ploys in negotiating with adversaries he is, for you, being a traitor.
The reason we have succeeded over time is a consistent developed policy, not the willy nilly, my gut approach of Floridaman.


If you think the cost of what we do is a lot, what is the cost of war or maintaining that any eventuality army?

We cannot "secure" a world that has different foundational principles and goals than we do. Either they become like us, or we like them. Then security is more compatible and more feasible. If, at our costs (material as well as those beyond money that make up what we are in spirit), we secure those who value us mostly because of security and economic advantage, we spend our treasure on those who may turn on us at whim or pretense of being insulted. True family members, who may quarrel in high voices, will defend each other no matter the insults or hurt feelings they cast at each other so long as they value the family.

We can only secure ourselves and those who are with us come hell or high water. If Europeans are lost to us as allies because of some things Trump says or some minor economic squabbles, then they are not truly our allies.

I suspect that Europe will abandon us only when its values run deeply counter to ours. Which may not be far from the case now.
We do not need the world to be exactly like us to secure our place in it, just like people are all different yet a good leader can get them to work as a team for the benefit of all. Floridaman does not know how to lead and thinks bullying is teamwork.

If we alienate our allies and then remove our forward bases, we do not have the transportation to react to problems worldwide and will be far weaker.

If we are not allowed forward bases, it is because allowing them to us it will be of no value or of negative value to those who own them. Or, perhaps, because they are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Again, alienating a true ally takes more than Trump type "insults." And if they are true allies in spirit as well as matter, than we should be able to trust them to be fully armed and willing to do some, or all, of that which we would do from those bases.
To be successful all nations take the longest view possible, a shaky ally is kept at arms length or kept till no longer needed. That is what Macron is doing because he see Floridaman as an unstable ally because of his speech and actions.

The weak lose, every time, sooner or later.

Among other things, weakness comes from lack of solidarity. Tsung Tzu taught how a smaller force could overcome a larger one simply by sticking together in all out combat against those who are about to destroy you, but have not the same ferocious need to fight to the death to survive.

When we become the big force, the big brother, who protects the smaller guy, the smaller remains weak and the bigger is weakened by lack of solidarity and the overall desire to fight.

We are not strengthened by alliances with weak dependents. But if we are to protect them, then they must at least be dependable, not some frightened twits who turn on you at the slightest presumed insult.
Ask the Danes and Kurds about that

If you don't think so look at the British Empire, it once controlled the world. Now it is trying to not be a state in the EU.

To a great extent, Britain lost faith in itself. It lost its principles and innate identity. It became part of the Progressive world of nations. There is still a remnant, maybe even a large one that would like to restore that identity, not the empire. That remnant is what wants to break away from the EU. From being sucked into the all-powerful vortex of a single, politically centralized Europe.

Until Floridaman the US supported the EU, Britain will not be able to stand on it's own and the Irish troubles could easily start over again. England also will likely be all that is left of the British Empire, Scotland will declare independence and Ireland might solve the troubles by departing also. That's another issue.

Floridaman has no clue what the results of what he is doing will be, it's not a real estate deal that if it doesn't work out he can move on to the next one. You can't just bankrupt the country, screw the creditors and move on to the next turkey. Diplomacy is not transactional, if it was any any snake oil salesman could do it.

The sooner he's gone the better.

Originally Posted by detbuch

He is not treating it as if failure is just a reason to move on to the next one. He is doggedly trying to prevent failure and energetically, laboriously, unrelentingly, trying to gain success. That being made tremendously more difficult by the "resistance" here at home.

The sooner he is gone the more likely we return to the pre-Trump status quo with the rapid rise of China to world dominance and our cow-towing to its rape of our wealth and redistribution of it into so called "investments" in the third world which in effect makes those countries colonies to provide all the resources and land mass that will make it the boogey man you fear.

How has the China trade situation changed, other than Floridaman's tariff wars, there is no deal as he would say. Every one of his deals is not nearly what he claims it to be.

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

There's always at least one tweet

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
We need a President who isn't a laughing stock to the entire World. We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect!
3:30 AM · Aug 9, 2014·Twitter for Android

I can’t remember the last time anyone, let alone a president of the United States, was laughed off a continent.

It’s worth observing, as Floridaman stalks off early from the NATO summit because his deeply sensitive personal feelings were hurt, that we’re all old enough to remember he criticized the House for holding an impeachment hearing during the important business of that summit.

I can’t wait for Nov 2020.
You will be fitted for a straight jacket and place on a room with padded walls & floor after our greatest president of our life time wins in a landslide ��
I just hope someone gets it on film so we can enjoy the meltdown.
64 million of his supporters aren’t going anywhere but to the polls to vote for him again and a good % of those whole vote for Hillary will be voting for him because they are fed up with this non stop witch hunt since he was elected.

[Sea Dangles]

This guy only eats what CNN is serving.
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[Sea Dangles]

Thank you for your useless efforts this morning PeteF
🍔🍔🤡🍔🍔
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Thank you for your useless efforts this morning PeteF
🍔🍔🤡🍔🍔
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

You obviously know a lot about useless
Glad to see you have a skill
🍑🤡
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
]
Why then did he run home?

I don't know. Maybe the toilet bowl was overflowing.

I've noticed you only pay attention to things that favor your position

Sometimes I do the same as you do.

Although, I must say, I pay a lot of attention to some of your posts and others that I don't agree with. I think you're off on your assumption here.


If you’re concerned about China’s growing economic influence in Latin America, imposing tariffs is at best counterproductive.

No, at best it helps to nudge Latin America into a more equitable trade relationship. And China's growing worldwide influence is fueled by the wealth it has transferred from our self-destructive trade and economic relationship we have had with it before Trump.

The minute Floridaman comes close to fulfilling the threat that he will close US bases in SK, they will withdraw from the joint intelligence treaty and further ally with China. They have already threatened that.

If the SK leadership thinks it will actually cost them less to ally with China than with us, they may be too stupid to deal with. I'm sure they see what's going on in Hong Kong--and the fruit of NK's relationship with China. I don't think they're that dumb. They have a great deal with us, even if they have to chip in on the cost of military protection.

You know exactly what he said, just like Trumplicans are deplorable, but some are good people.

Yes I do. And I know what he did not say. He did not say that all of our Southern Neighbors are murderers and rapists. Not even close to that. He was referring to some that were crossing here illegally. Maybe he should have given the names and exact numbers just to be clear.

Trying to bully someone is picking a fight.

No--first, he wasn't "bullying" (more dramatic verbiage). and second, bullies don't pick fights. They are not looking for a fight. A fight is the last thing they want. Bullies don't pick on the strong ones. Bullying is an attempt to frighten someone weaker with threats just to satisfy their own ego, they are not looking for a fight.

And, anyway, I don't think Trump was trying to pick a fight. His style is more some form of negotiation which can involve some heated exchange--from both sides.

The President of the United States is supposed to be a natural born citizen and should not require a translator to be understood.

Trump doesn't require a translator (more dramatic hyperbole). Everyone has a style of speaking. I understand Biden perfectly well even though what he says often sounds creepy. So I don't make fun of him for that. The context in which something is said and the style in which it is delivered are "translating" devices. Trump supporters have no trouble understanding him. They know sarcasm and irony when they here it and know he employs those a lot. And the context and tone are clear.

What is clear is the attempt to literalize and so negatively taint his use of humor, or sarcasm, or irony. Of course, sometimes what he says is just plain wrong. But that is also evident and understood.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Denmark is a very special country with incredible people, but based on Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen’s comments, that she would have no interest in discussing the purchase of Greenland, I will be postponing our meeting scheduled in two weeks for another time....
7:51 PM · Aug 20, 2019

That was more strange than insulting. If, as you claim, it was intended as an insult, it was not very successful. and if Mette took it as in insult, she might be a trifle touchy. As it is written, it is goofy, more of an insult to Trump himself. And if he was so angry or was insulted himself, why did he reschedule?

Nobody in this country knows what Floridaman is doing next, good luck with that.

Well, you certainly don't. You don't even know what he has been doing. You just inevitably put a negative slant on everything he does.

He is moving us further away by reducing alliances,

I don't know what you mean by "reducing" alliances. Have we lost some? Or do you mean they have become weaker? I see no actual evidence of that.

Nothing lasts forever and willy nilly is not a plan

I don't think I have argued against that.


No armed conflict, crime yes driven largely by US drug markets

Lots of armed conflict. Not between countries but within. And its a serious problem for them and us. Could be more serious than between countries--those usually are resolved one way or another. What's going on down there has been a colloquial forever. With no end in sight. Except, maybe, if we actually sent military there to do foreign armed conflict. Or maybe we can legalize all drugs and put them out of business.


How's that fence working out?

OK, considering all the obstacles being put up by politicians against funding it. Hey, it's a political battle. Can't win them all.

We have never been a bully,

Jackson and "The Trail of Tears." Roosevelt and Japanese American internment camps. Roosevelt and Yalta Conference handing over all of Eastern Europe to Stalin, against the will and well-being of those country's people. Roosevelt bullying Japan into war by giving it the ultimatum of total surrender when it sued for a non-aggression treaty. Wilson Taking sides in WWI against Germany and forcing its hand with blockades that had to be retaliated to. Slavery. Forcing Bakers and Florists to act against religious beliefs that did not cause actual harm to anyone else. Federal regulatory agencies that force farmers to not use large sections of their property for crops. Federal regulatory agencies, in general, which violate the Constitution and individual rights. The claim that we rape the resources and destroy the cultures of other countries. The claim that we separate families and put the children in cages.

We bully foreigners. We bully our own citizens. We have done so throughout history. You said we were the judge, jury, and executioner. We are not perfect. Maybe the best (in our eyes), but not the perfect purveyors of only the good.

And you think the old divisions and hates have disappeared?

Does it sound like I think that. I said that Europe does not know how to have a true union.


Dealing with a combined force is the biggest military threat to the US and thinking that we could just sit out a world war is juvenile thinking at best.

I didn't say we should sit out a war. But neither, necessarily, jump in. Should we have chosen sides in WWI? Serious "adult" scholars think it was a mistake. That it directly led to WWII. And that directly led to the massive empowerment of the Soviet Union and the creation of Communist China.


Floridaman is not an authoritarian? He wants to control world trade and choose who in the US succeeds by allocating tariff exclusions and that sort of baloney goes on and on.


Trump is not a country, not a government. He is a cog in a system that he cannot control. If we were an authoritarian state, an authoritarian government, he could. That is why we must resist the continual slide into that Progressive ideal of all-powerful central government.

And your going over the top, AGAIN. His tariffs cannot "control" world trade. And they are not dictatorial, they are reciprocal. World trade as it has been going was an increasingly negative benefit to us. He is attempting a corrective to that. But I get it. I understand. You cannot conceive of or admit that anything he does is good or even intended to be good for us.


The reason we have succeeded over time is a consistent developed policy, not the willy nilly, my gut approach of Floridaman.

You adhere to the Progressive view that it is government policy that makes us successful. I suppose that it depends on what you mean by successful. And what you mean by "over time." Or what you mean by "developed policy."

Over time, since our inception, we have not had a consistent government policy toward much of anything--social, economic, legislative, judicial, or executive. There has been continuous change and inevitable ups and downs.

The only constant is that we, for the most part, maintained our individual freedoms better than others.

As government policy centralizes and lessens personal freedoms, governments and corporations grow larger and more powerful. The people get weaker and small business numbers shrink. And when government tax burdens and regulations shrink the economic sector expands. The only consistency I see is the more of the founding freedoms we keep or regain, the more overall successful we are.

We do not need the world to be exactly like us to secure our place in it, just like people are all different yet a good leader can get them to work as a team for the benefit of all. Floridaman does not know how to lead and thinks bullying is teamwork.


Securing our place in the world is not the same as securing the world. Nor as securing our allies. Again, you go overboard with the drama. I never spoke of being "exactly" the same. Nor was I speaking of being the same. But to having a common foundation. As we supposedly do in this country. We are all different here. But in so far as we all agree to abide by the founding principles, or to some principle that binds us, our security will have a solid ground to stand on. Otherwise it is a constant fight to keep our heads above the quicksand of differing who, what, and how we are and are supposed to cooperate. From which we are doomed to sink.

And if we depend on a leader to make that happen, that is another form of quicksand. Leaders come and go. And they also need the same, constant, foundation to stand on as those who follow. In a free society we should all be leaders. Especially of our own lives. But we need, playing on the overworked cliché, to march to the same drumbeat. And that drumbeat has to be impervious to the superficial whims of time, place, and government officials.

To be successful all nations take the longest view possible, a shaky ally is kept at arms length or kept till no longer needed. That is what Macron is doing because he see Floridaman as an unstable ally because of his speech and actions.

If France depends on Macron, and we depend on Floridaman, or any other person, to make us all successful, our success will have a very short lifespan.

Ask the Danes and Kurds about that

Our alliance with the Danes via NATO is intact. You just got done saying "a shaky ally is kept at arms length or kept till no longer needed." But is Denmark a solid ally if it quits us because of perceived insults? Are the Kurds solid allies if they are at war with other nations that we are bound by treaty to protect? The Kurdish situation is very tricky, somewhat a damned if you do damned if you don't. And one that could lead to a much larger scale of war. The Kurds helped with ISIS. But ISIS was more a danger to them than to us. Maybe it was us who helped them. That situation may resolve itself better by not starting a major conflict. Or, if not, if it was a total blunder, chalk one up against Trump.


Until Floridaman the US supported the EU, Britain will not be able to stand on it's own and the Irish troubles could easily start over again. England also will likely be all that is left of the British Empire, Scotland will declare independence and Ireland might solve the troubles by departing also. That's another issue.

If the British wish to stand on their own, that is up to them. I suspect that they can. If Ireland and Scotland declare independence, that might be a good thing. Those people don't depend on your analysis. For all the discontents, there is still a close relationship they can have with each other, and one that might be more fruitful and friendly if each could be the master of its own borders.

The EU has more problems than England. And those problems are not nor have been caused by Trump. I know that in your mind he is responsible for the world going mad or bad. But it has already been there well before him. And I don't think he either supports nor doesn't support the EU. It's there. He would rather have separate trade relations with some of the individual countries. But he has no power over what they do.


How has the China trade situation changed, other than Floridaman's tariff wars, there is no deal as he would say. Every one of his deals is not nearly what he claims it to be.

Yeah, right.

[scottw]

complete lunacy


"During a CNN town hall Thursday night, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told an audience “let’s not even contemplate” the possibility of Donald Trump being elected for a second term hours after Pelosi announced that she was requesting House Judiciary Committee chairman Jerry Nadler to move forward with drafting articles of impeachment against Trump.

“The damage that this administration has done to America — America is a great country, we can sustain — two terms, I don’t know,” Pelosi responded to a question from the audience. “Civilization as we know it today is at stake in this election.”

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

complete lunacy


"During a CNN town hall Thursday night, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told an audience “let’s not even contemplate” the possibility of Donald Trump being elected for a second term hours after Pelosi announced that she was requesting House Judiciary Committee chairman Jerry Nadler to move forward with drafting articles of impeachment against Trump.

“The damage that this administration has done to America — America is a great country, we can sustain — two terms, I don’t know,” Pelosi responded to a question from the audience. “Civilization as we know it today is at stake in this election.”

Funny Detbuch and other have been making this suggestion about progressive's . You mustn't read his detailed posts. Or you agree so you dont see any lunacy
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