Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

     

Left Nav S-B Home Register FAQ Members List S-B on Facebook Arcade WEAX Tides Buoys Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Right Nav

Left Container Right Container
 

Go Back   Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating Striper Chat - Discuss stuff other than fishing ~ The Scuppers and Political talk Political Threads

Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-12-2011, 02:42 PM   #1
Sweetwater
Ruled only by the tide
iTrader: (0)
 
Sweetwater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truro
Posts: 801
We're Just Different People

I've often heard people say that Conservatives and Liberals basically want the same thing, they just have different ways of going about it. But a recent Reason-Rupe Poll (Sept. 1, 2011) shows that we are very different kinds of people that have different core values.

When asked whether people succeed based on a) "hard work" or b) "luck/help from others," liberals were nearly 6 times more likely to cite luck (28%) compared to conservatives (5%).

When asked for one to become wealthy must it be a) "at the expensive of others" or b) "wealth can be grown so there is enough for everyone" 70% of liberals believed that wealth can only come at the expense of others compared to only 27% of conservatives.

Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others." Just half (51%) of liberals would teach their children to work hard and be self-reliant compare to over three-quarters (77%) of conservatives.

I'd personally hate to go through life thinking that only luck (good or bad) controls my success and that my financial success can only be achieved on the backs of others while failing to teach my children the value of hard work and self-reliance.

Last edited by Sweetwater; 09-12-2011 at 02:50 PM..

Three-fourths of the Earth's surface is water, and one-fourth is land. It is quite clear that the good Lord intended us to spend triple the amount of time fishing as taking care of the lawn.
Sweetwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 02:52 PM   #2
JohnR
Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
iTrader: (1)
 
JohnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 32,551
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
I'd personally hate to go through life thinking that only luck (good or bad) controls my success and that my financial success can only be achieved on the backs of others while failing to teach my children the value of hard work and self-reliance.
Luck did control your success - you were born here in the USA.

The rest, of course, is up to you to be self-reliant and hard working

~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~

Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers


Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.


Apocalypse is Coming:
JohnR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 03:17 PM   #3
CTSurfrat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 708
The the belief in hard work and self-reliance seems to be being replaced with the government (or someone else) will do that for me...I'm entitled to it!
CTSurfrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 03:57 PM   #4
justplugit
Registered Grandpa
iTrader: (0)
 
justplugit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: east coast
Posts: 8,589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post

Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others." Just half (51%) of liberals would teach their children to work hard and be self-reliant compare to over three-quarters (77%) of conservatives.
People make their own "luck" by hard work and getting recognized for it.

I don't know of a school or business that looks for slackards and or rewards
them.

Hard work brings a feeling of confidence, self worth and respect
by others, which leads to opportunities that a slackard will never find.

The hard worker looks at his work and says "well done."
A slackard says to the hard worker, "Sucker," and falls into loathing himself.

" Choose Life "
justplugit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 05:13 AM   #5
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 16,193
Who was it that said..."The Harder I work the Luckier I get"

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 06:35 AM   #6
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
Who was it that said..."The Harder I work the Luckier I get"
Patrick Kennedy
scottw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 07:13 AM   #7
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 16,193
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it." ~Thomas Jefferson

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 09:25 AM   #8
ecduzitgood
time to go
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,318
I tend to go to extremes and can say first hand if you work too hard or too well you get shunned. No body wants someone around who makes them look bad, so guys like me end up getting the shaft. Knowing someone gets your foot in doors not open to others and is a major factor in my eyes. Luck is also involved, although people who have it don't recognize it. Being in the right place at the right time or being born into the right family are what I would consider luck.
ecduzitgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 05:17 PM   #9
Sweetwater
Ruled only by the tide
iTrader: (0)
 
Sweetwater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truro
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecduzitgood View Post
I tend to go to extremes and can say first hand if you work too hard or too well you get shunned. No body wants someone around who makes them look bad, so guys like me end up getting the shaft. Knowing someone gets your foot in doors not open to others and is a major factor in my eyes. Luck is also involved, although people who have it don't recognize it. Being in the right place at the right time or being born into the right family are what I would consider luck.
Well, I don't know you personally. But if you work in a job that rewards laziness and underproduction and shuns those who work hard and do well, I'd guess you either have a union job or a government job.

I hope this isn't taken with offense.

Three-fourths of the Earth's surface is water, and one-fourth is land. It is quite clear that the good Lord intended us to spend triple the amount of time fishing as taking care of the lawn.
Sweetwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 05:59 PM   #10
ecduzitgood
time to go
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
Well, I don't know you personally. But if you work in a job that rewards laziness and underproduction and shuns those who work hard and do well, I'd guess you either have a union job or a government job.

I hope this isn't taken with offense.
I did , but when the president of the Union tells you "$25 of crack goes a long way in Brockton" and you ask him to clarify what he is saying and he tells you "you are making people look bad and you could get conked on the head" you walk away. Especially after the police interview you and photograph your truck for a supposed hit and run in the parking lot that your co-workers and the witness identify your truck has the vehicle responsible on your last day of probation. Luckily I knew the cop and he knew me well enough to see through what was happening.
Then when working private sector jobs and getting harassed and called a brown noser all the time because you take your job seriously you tend to just say F-it I give up and choose to live a simple life without much, yeah I loose. Good thing my family owned a business (union shop) where I learned my work ethic (always being watched and set an example) which they sold so I have a trust fund for my future.
ecduzitgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 06:08 PM   #11
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecduzitgood View Post
I tend to go to extremes and can say first hand if you work too hard or too well you get shunned. No body wants someone around who makes them look bad, so guys like me end up getting the shaft. Knowing someone gets your foot in doors not open to others and is a major factor in my eyes. Luck is also involved, although people who have it don't recognize it. Being in the right place at the right time or being born into the right family are what I would consider luck.
I also know of what you speak first hand. That's why I work non-union now. Union's create lazy, entitled workers.
buckman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 05:31 AM   #12
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 16,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
. Union's create lazy, entitled workers.
I don't think it creates them....I think it enables them. There are a lot of union workers who do put in a solid days work for a solid days pay....but if someone is a Lazy POS by nature...they seem to thrive in a union environment....where in the private sector they wouldn't last very long.

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 07:47 AM   #13
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
I don't think it creates them....I think it enables them. There are a lot of union workers who do put in a solid days work for a solid days pay....but if someone is a Lazy POS by nature...they seem to thrive in a union environment....where in the private sector they wouldn't last very long.
Point well made.
However, hardworkers can be forced to slow down so as not to make others look bad. That would not stand in the private sector...not in this economy
buckman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 08:09 AM   #14
JohnR
Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
iTrader: (1)
 
JohnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 32,551
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
Point well made.
However, hardworkers can be forced to slow down so as not to make others look bad. That would not stand in the private sector...not in this economy

I am pretty mixed on the union / non-union thing but I have been personally told by some union members I worked with ( I was not union) to slow down as I was making them look bad. I was too ambitious.

~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~

Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers


Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.


Apocalypse is Coming:
JohnR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 08:39 AM   #15
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 16,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
I am pretty mixed on the union / non-union thing but I have been personally told by some union members I worked with ( I was not union) to slow down as I was making them look bad. I was too ambitious.
See, I when I worked for GE I was a member of IBEW....the majority of us came to work and worked....we did everything we were supposed too, Honest day's work for Honest Day's pay....but out of the 20-something of us in the shop there were 2 that were worthless POS's....Boss couldn't get rid of them, that's where the Unions are the problem...at least from my experience.

I'm seeing the same thing in the government.....9 of us in my code....8 working....1 worthless POS.....He'll never get tossed.

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 09:35 AM   #16
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
I am pretty mixed on the union / non-union thing but I have been personally told by some union members I worked with ( I was not union) to slow down as I was making them look bad. I was too ambitious.
You'll get this in the private sector as well, although it's usually not as obvious. I've been told by many people the reason some don't want to pass me the ball is because they're afraid I'll run all the way down the field

-spence
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 10:27 AM   #17
Saltheart
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
 
Saltheart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Cumberland,RI
Posts: 8,550
Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others."

Why are these two mutually exclusive? That's the trouble with these kinds of polls. The choices they give put words in your mouth!

Saltheart
Custom Crafted Rods by Saltheart
Saltheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 10:54 AM   #18
justplugit
Registered Grandpa
iTrader: (0)
 
justplugit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: east coast
Posts: 8,589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltheart View Post
Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others."

Why are these two mutually exclusive? That's the trouble with these kinds of polls. The choices they give put words in your mouth!
Your right SH, good parenting includes both and and one
shouldn't be more important then the other.

There should be no problem in being a hard worker and having a giving spirit.

" Choose Life "
justplugit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 03:59 PM   #19
Sweetwater
Ruled only by the tide
iTrader: (0)
 
Sweetwater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truro
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltheart View Post
Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others."

Why are these two mutually exclusive? That's the trouble with these kinds of polls. The choices they give put words in your mouth!
They're not mutually exclusive in practice, but the question was asked in this way to determine which value people hold most strongly...sharing over self-reliance, or self-reliance over sharing.

So, given a trade-off, liberals are more likely to choose "sharing."

Three-fourths of the Earth's surface is water, and one-fourth is land. It is quite clear that the good Lord intended us to spend triple the amount of time fishing as taking care of the lawn.
Sweetwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 05:13 PM   #20
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
They're not mutually exclusive in practice, but the question was asked in this way to determine which value people hold most strongly...sharing over self-reliance, or self-reliance over sharing.

So, given a trade-off, liberals are more likely to choose "sharing."
Liberals and conservatives don't have all the same beliefs???

STOP THE PRESSES!!!


Let's look at the actual poll instead of snippets...

Reason-Rupe Surveys : Reason Magazine

What it seems to indicate is that the majority of Americans don't fit into either of the two categories presented above.

What it also seems to indicate is that when broken down by party, people who would identify as democrats and independents scored pretty close to each other.

Another element is that the category questions separate "libertarian" from "conservative" while in the real world these are often combined. The net effect if this is to concentrate the "conservative" numbers. This is reflected when you look at the difference between the two tables.

If anything this poll confirms what we already knew, that our nation is made up of a diverse set of viewpoints, but that we share more in common than some would like you to believe.

-spence
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 07:11 PM   #21
justplugit
Registered Grandpa
iTrader: (0)
 
justplugit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: east coast
Posts: 8,589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post

So, given a trade-off, liberals are more likely to choose "sharing."
Ya, "sharing" other people's hard earned money.

" Choose Life "
justplugit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2011, 03:12 PM   #22
Sweetwater
Ruled only by the tide
iTrader: (0)
 
Sweetwater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truro
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Liberals and conservatives don't have all the same beliefs???

STOP THE PRESSES!!!


Let's look at the actual poll instead of snippets...

Reason-Rupe Surveys : Reason Magazine

What it seems to indicate is that the majority of Americans don't fit into either of the two categories presented above.

What it also seems to indicate is that when broken down by party, people who would identify as democrats and independents scored pretty close to each other.

Another element is that the category questions separate "libertarian" from "conservative" while in the real world these are often combined. The net effect if this is to concentrate the "conservative" numbers. This is reflected when you look at the difference between the two tables.

If anything this poll confirms what we already knew, that our nation is made up of a diverse set of viewpoints, but that we share more in common than some would like you to believe.

-spence
Right, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" do not represent everyone. But that's not the point. The point was to take the two ends of the political extreme (thus leaving out libertarians and commutarians or not comparing democrats to republicans which are more politically ambiguous designations) to best illustrate the differences. These differences are important because they show that people don't value the same things and just pursue them in different ways (as some often think is the case), rather, they value completely different things and have sometimes incompatible world views.

Three-fourths of the Earth's surface is water, and one-fourth is land. It is quite clear that the good Lord intended us to spend triple the amount of time fishing as taking care of the lawn.
Sweetwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2011, 03:18 PM   #23
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 16,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
These differences are important because they show that people don't value the same things and just pursue them in different ways (as some often think is the case), rather, they value completely different things and have sometimes incompatible world views.
The poll doesn't say that if you value one you don't value the other....it just makes you pick the one you value more.....you can still value Both of them...

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2011, 03:59 PM   #24
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
The poll doesn't say that if you value one you don't value the other....it just makes you pick the one you value more.....you can still value Both of them...
Additionally, if I remember correctly in all cases a minority of those classified as liberals or democrats were on the left end of the spectrum.

I'd wager that if you asked other loaded questions you'd get the Right end of the question responding in an equally off center manner.

-spence
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin. Copyright 2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Please use all necessary and proper safety precautions. STAY SAFE Striper Talk Forums
Copyright 1998-20012 Striped-Bass.com