OBL and Fahrenheit 9/11

[RIJIMMY]

I just saw this film last week, then today i read the transcript of all of Bin Laden's recent video. How many times do you think he saw that movie? He never mentions the movie directly but his points are extracted directly from the film. I believe Moore had every right in this society to make that movie but it makes me sort of sick that the enemy is using this to gauge our opinions and add to his propaganda
Its very disturbing to me that someone that was behind the killing of thousands of American's is commenting on our economy, political system and presidential race.

[spence]

The thing to keep in mind is that OBL's message is meant more for Islamic communites around the world than it is to scare Americans. I don't think anybody here gives a #$%& what he thinks, we just want to see him dead.

It would be foolish to think any large number of Americans really think like Michael Moore. Personally I think he's a slimeball, but I'd probably agree with a lot of the movie (what's true at least). Haven't seen it though...

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

SPence, you should read the whole transcript, OBL is speaking directly to Americans IMHO.
I just feel sort of violated that he thinks he has an understanding of our thoughts and beliefs.

[likwid]

Considering most of his family went to school in the US, and probably him also, I'd say he probably has a reasonably stable idea of what the US is all about, comparitively, I'm sure his view of the US is far better than most American's view of the Middle East.

[RIJIMMY]

Likwid, I think you're missing my point.
How bizaree would it have been to read Hitler's comments on a US presidential election? Thats basically what we have from Bin LAden and a lot of his "ammunition" is from Moore's film.

[likwid]

Most of Moore's views in F9/11 were extracted from foreign media.

[Nebe]

The fact is that OBL and Moore point to the reasons behind 9/11. There are 2 main reasons why 9/11 happened, our unconditional support of Isreal and thier problems with palestine and the occupation of islamic hly lands by US troops..

What is GWB's explination for 9/11? "the hate us for our freedoms"

that alone is case in point for GWB not telling the american people the real story.. it all spirals out of control from there. If he had come clean as to why 9/11 really happened, perhaps GWB's half baked plans for the war in Iraq might not have had so much support

[likwid]

I think it goes alot deeper than just Israel.

At the end of the Afghan - Russian conflict, we pretty much pulled out of there like we were shot in the butt and left everything hanging post war. Wheeling and dealing over oil I'm sure didn't make anyone over there happy other than the Saudi princes with their lust for expensive automobiles and whatnot. Israel is a huge subject with how many billions we pump into them yearly for what they do to continue and whatnot while we stand around and let stupid people continue doing stupid things and pissing people off.

Politicians lie.

[RIJIMMY]

Eb, no Muslim nation lifts a pinky to help Palestine and the US does not occupy ANY mulim holy lands.
We support Isreal as a democratic nation set up after WWII. So do most of our allies.
OBL views the US as a threat to his way of life and he is 100% right. The US govt and capitalism has influenced nearly every world power and culture. Its only a matter of time before MacDonalds is sponsoring the annual pilgrimage to Mecca.
Killing thousands of Americans aint gonna stop it.

And one again you are blaming the conditions that led to 9/11 on GWB, he did nothing to build the political landscape in thr mid-eastand Bin Laden has attacked the US numerous times before GWB was pres.

[cheferson]

How many americans did Osma's terror network kill? How many innocent people in Iraq died because of our invasion, 100,000?? Whos worse?

[Nebe]

I never said it was GWB's fault in my post only that his explination was that "they hate us for our freedoms" Not once has he ever mentioned anything about the 'real' causes for 9/11.

Obviously i dont believe with negotiating with terrorists, but i do believe that it would make sense to evaluate why they have a problem and at least admit our failures in the muslim world. Killing is not the answer, and in about 6 months, if the deaths continue, almost as many people would have died In Iraq than under Saddam's rule.

[RIJIMMY]

I only care about US casualties. If 20 million people from other countries have to die to save American lives, so be it.
The president is bound by Constitution to protect americans. We are not bound by any law to save foreign lives.

[RIJIMMY]

Bin Laden and his followers are in the same boat as the American Indian was 200 years ago. They want to exist as they always have.
I'm not proud of what this country did, but progress rolls on, conform or die.

[spence]

So you think what happened to American Indians was a good thing

-spence

[Nebe]

i'm at a loss for words

[Big Vern]

Okaaay...it looks like RIJIMMY's true colors are shining through, and frankly, all his credibility has been lost.

[RIJIMMY]

No, I dont think its a good thing , but what was the option? Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist? They cannot.
Same as Islamic Fundmentalists and the modern societies, they cannot co-exist.

[likwid]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
I only care about US casualties. If 20 million people from other countries have to die to save American lives, so be it.
The president is bound by Constitution to protect americans. We are not bound by any law to save foreign lives.

Over 1000 American soldiers have died in Iraq so far. Whats he protecting again?

[cheferson]

An attitude about only american lives mattering is why we our looked down upon all over the world.

[likwid]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
No, I dont think its a good thing , but what was the option? Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist? They cannot.
Same as Islamic Fundmentalists and the modern societies, they cannot co-exist.

Funny, Islamic Fundamentalists and others live quite happily in Malaysia.

Try again.

[RIJIMMY]

DC, please answer this question...
Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist?

[RIJIMMY]

"Funny, Islamic Fundamentalists and others live quite happily in Malaysia."

GIve it time........

[likwid]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
"Funny, Islamic Fundamentalists and others live quite happily in Malaysia."

GIve it time........

Give it time? They've all been there forever!
Technologically they've advanced right along with Japan. (see: free trade zone etc.)

Over this past summer I've been able to interact (and go fishing with) 2 Muslims from Malaysia, they're over here helping move lines for Texas Instruments over there. I asked them about how they deal with Fundamentalists over there, and they say they don't really do anything, yeah they're openly and devoutly religious but the religion (muslim) police handle them as they see fit and whatnot. (Note, the 2 muslims were kinda your middle of the road type people... they pray... they eat hilel (sp?) food etc. but they're not crazy... they still live life like a normal christian who goes to church on sunday etc. would) But yes, Malaysia has long had extremely devout muslim groups with crazies and whatnot and never had any huge problems with it.

As an example, their laws are far more strict than we have in the US therefore having a crime rate thats waaay below what we could ever hope for. (Sure, bring up civil rights, but then you might as well bring up Iraq again... ding!)

You're just unable to admit you're wrong.

[Nebe]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
DC, please answer this question...
Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist?

I'll answer
well, if our government had respected all of the original treaties, and not stolen all of thier land and broken our promises, then the indians would have huge tracts of land equal to yellowstone national park if not greater. with that much land they could have lived thier way of live.

What we did to those poor indians makes me ashamed to be an american, and we're still screwing with Indians today.. look at the narragansett indian tribes problems.

[spence]

I agree...

Native Americans were screwed royally by the Europeans. From a human standpoint it was completely and morally wrong.

No going back now, it is what it is...

To equate this to radical Islam is utterly absurd. Please think before you type

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

In many countries traditional Muslim culture is being replaced by more "western" cultures. Turkey is a perfect example.
Some people adapt to change , some fight it. We still have Amish in this country, I have no desire to fight them and they have no desire to fight the rest of the country.
Im sure fundamentalists muslims can co-exist with other cultures. BUT...if the belief is that this new culture is a threat to their way of life, they can adapt or fight.
Bin Laden has chosen to fight. Look at Saudi Arabia, parts of it look like Vegas ...why? Because of a US infulence.
I don't think Im saying anythig that most of you disagree with, I may just not be saying it correctly.
Look at the Taliban, they made islamic fundamentalist law, banned all other religion......do you think they could co-exist with a western society?

[RIJIMMY]

SPence I'll stand by my analogy.
The Natve American culture was over-ran by the expansion of the US (or white) culture. As was the African AMerican Culture, the German Culture, the Italian...etc.
There is no-way the native AMericans could live and hunt they way they did and co-exist with the modern us society. I'd love to beleive there is but it its a utopian idea.
Bin Laden has chosen to fight to stop teh spread of america (or western) culture. He views us as a threat to his way of live (he si right).

[likwid]

How is Turkey a perfect example?
What do they share technologically with the world? US Airbases and donkey carts?

Malaysia is pretty much the semiconductor capital of the world.

[RIJIMMY]

The federation of Malaysia is a constitutional monarchy, nominally headed by
the Paramount Ruler or Yang di-Pertuan Agong, customarily referred to as the
king. Kings are elected for 5-year terms from among the nine sultans of the
peninsular Malaysian states


Malaysia is NOT a muslim state.
Dont confuse radicalism with the muslim religion, The Taliban was radiacal, Bin Laden is a radical. Most muslims are not.
remember, Bin Laden beleives most heads of Muslim nations are "infidels".

[likwid]

And whats the #1 religion in Malaysia?

dun dun dun

And when you take full on Radicals into question, you can't discuss the entirety of a religion to base it from.

How would you feel if everyone based christianity off of Jerry Falwell?