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OK, so this gets thrown around a lot, many lefties whine that they're unfairly labled when they do stupid stuff that undermines their own country...go figure
I'll go first, but I should clarify the fact that I have no issue with anyone of any race, creed, color or belief or previous residence somewhere else in the solar system that comes to the good ole' USA through our generous "legal" channels and creates a life for themselves and their future generations abiding by our laws and traditions. I believe that while we are a society of vast differences individually, what binds us is and adherence and belief in the principles that were discussed in the Federalist papers, put down in our Constitution and reinforced in the Bill of Rights, these guiding principles establish rights and responsibilities of individuals and more importantly limit the role of government over individuals, I do not believe that these are living and breathing documents, they are the pillars of our society structure meant to stand the test of time and tinkering by those intending to erode their importance.
For me it's simple..black and white some would say, I consider anyone who demonstrates a political ideaology that more closely resembles Marx and Mao than that of Madison and Adams to be at their core Unpatriotic and Anti-American, might be a little controversial for some, but hey, we're just talkin', right? The two just simply just can't co-exist and the former has been an utter failure everywhere it's been tried and the latter has resulted in great progress and unparalleled advancement for the entire globe...I know that's fogotten a lot....but it's true...
one of our two predominant parties is run and funded by folks that would love to shove Marxism down our throats and fundamentally change this country, they'd prefer to rip up our founding documents and create their own new and improved version of the Communist Manifesto, this time it will work because it will be better funded and smarter, more "ENLIGHTENED" folks will be implementing it ..and I'm tired of the smug looks and arrogant comments from those that continually subvert this nation, from the politicians that swear to uphold the laws of their respective states and country and then attack those that operate in that capacity(Ted Kennedy, John Kerry), governors that refuse to obey federal laws and declare "sanctuary cities" and operate their cities like their own little social experiment, American citizens that trave abroad and use their status to trash their own country and prop up thugs that seek out demise...
so where do you draw the line....it will be drawn in this election
one of our two predominant parties is run and funded by folks that would love to shove Marxism down our throats and fundamentally change this country, they'd prefer to rip up our founding documents and create their own new and improved version of the Communist Manifesto, this time it will work because it will be better funded and smarter, more "ENLIGHTENED" folks will be implementing it ..
um.. considering that the fascists in the white house now have already started tearing up the constitution and have taken alway a few of our rights that our founding fathers gave us, I doubt there will be much left in '09 for Obama to rip up....Remember what Ben Franklin said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
I think you may have confused nationalism with patriotism.
In this country you have the right to question your government by utilizing your freedom of speech and freedom of press. I am pretty sure Madison and Unger, oops I mean Adams, would agree with that.
Blindly following a corrupt leader has alao proven to be an utter failure time and time again.
So your argument is that we have been and are today standing on the principals that formed this nation, and that this election represents a potential move away from that position?
So your argument is that we have been and are today standing on the principals that formed this nation, and that this election represents a potential move away from that position?
-spence
bwaaa haaa haaaa....
our pricipals went out the window the moment we went into Korea. For that was the first war that we fought that was based on 'ideals'
I'm sure that you were pretty upset and consider the current admin. un-American when Bush admitted recently that he lied previously when he had said that he thought the war was going fine even though he thought otherwise b/c he felt the American public couldn't take the truth.
In addition, his hiring actors to pose as reports in press confrences and lob questions at him, his producing fake news releases to promote his idea how the war was going, paying a conservative to go on tv and promote his educations initiatives, his having former military officers go on tv and act as analysts after receiving talking points from his lackeys must also make your blood boil that Bush did all he can to undermine many of the principals this country was founded on.
um.. considering that the fascists in the white house now have already started tearing up the constitution and have taken alway a few of our rights that our founding fathers gave us, I doubt there will be much left in '09 for Obama to rip up....Remember what Ben Franklin said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
I'd love to know which liberty you feel you have personally lost?? Hold on, you aren't one of those guys claiming to have seen Cheney behind the wheel of a utility truck outside your house with Bush hanging from a telephone pole listening in to your conversations with a 1-900 hottie are you??? These "facists" are constantly accused of trampling the rights of average americans and there's never any evidence...kinda like all of the disenfranchised voters that are claimed whenever the Repub.'s win an election and then never materialize... just talking points...looped over and over till it becomes part of the conversation...no basis in reality....real loss of liberty will result from government run everything, which is what both dem candidates are proposing and deeply hold as a belief system...don't fret Comrade...you have a 50/50 chance!!!
For me it's simple..black and white some would say, I consider anyone who demonstrates a political ideaology that more closely resembles Marx and Mao than that of Madison and Adams to be at their core Unpatriotic and Anti-American,
I thought I was clear....maybe not....
I get the impression that there's a lot of support for Marx and his vision out there
For me it's simple..black and white some would say, I consider anyone who demonstrates a political ideaology that more closely resembles Marx and Mao than that of Madison and Adams to be at their core Unpatriotic and Anti-American
You're dodging my question.
By the way, I find your statment above to be quite anti American.
um.. considering that the fascists in the white house now have already started tearing up the constitution and have taken alway a few of our rights that our founding fathers gave us, I doubt there will be much left in '09 for Obama to rip up....Remember what Ben Franklin said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
I'd love to know which liberty you feel you have personally lost?? Hold on, you aren't one of those guys claiming to have seen Cheney behind the wheel of a utility truck outside your house with Bush hanging from a telephone pole listening in to your conversations with a 1-900 hottie are you??? These "facists" are constantly accused of trampling the rights of average americans and there's never any evidence...kinda like all of the disenfranchised voters that are claimed whenever the Repub.'s win an election and then never materialize... just talking points...looped over and over till it becomes part of the conversation...no basis in reality....real loss of liberty will result from government run everything, which is what both dem candidates are proposing and deeply hold as a belief system...don't fret Comrade...you have a 50/50 chance!!!
The government if it sees so fit, can tap my phone, read my emails, intercept my mail at a drop of a hat if it wants to without approval from a court. If questioned, the goverment can simply say, "f-you.. its classified" and go on its merry way. That is a huge right to privacy violation. Whats next?? no more search warrents? I read that police in Mass have been going to peoples houses and 'asking' the owners if they can look around for guns.. soon they wont have to ask.
If you ask me, the goverment is so concerned about gun control because there could be a revolution in a few years if our current problems are not fixed.. on and most of our problems have not been created by our goverment, but they certianly have been fertilized and given good sunlight by them
For me it's simple..black and white some would say, I consider anyone who demonstrates a political ideaology that more closely resembles Marx and Mao than that of Madison and Adams to be at their core Unpatriotic and Anti-American,
I thought I was clear....maybe not....
I get the impression that there's a lot of support for Marx and his vision out there
So what you're saying is that you don't support any of the troops in Iraq or Afghanistan if they are registered Democrats, because they are supporting a Marxist Ideaology and therefore are Unpatriotic and Anti- American.
Its that Black and White for you huh?
"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
Scottw - Marxism is pretty widespread. I majored in Econ at UMass and it was the pervasive (sic) thoery in the department. What I'm saying is that Marxism is pretty popular and state-sponsored. Don't worry about the elitism. While it makes you feel bad, it also makes it nearly impossible to win a national presidential election, so it all evens out in the end.
Ben Franklin was being short sighted, but considering the times in which he lived I think he can be forgiven. There is in inherent inverse relationship between safety and liberty. We would be more free without police, for instance. Maybe all that time in France clouded his judgement.
I agree, by the way, that we need to reduce the size of government in order to make us all more free. You think Hillary or B. Hussein Obama are going to do that?
Nebe - some people feel that the founding fathers put the Second Ammendment in the constitution as a "doomsday" clause. I hope those homeowners tell the police to go to hell.
I read that police in Mass have been going to peoples houses and 'asking' the owners if they can look around for guns.. soon they wont have to ask.
If you ask me, the goverment is so concerned about gun control because there could be a revolution in a few years if our current problems are not fixed.. on and most of our problems have not been created by our goverment, but they certianly have been fertilized and given good sunlight by them [/QUOTE]
and the "govenment" in the socialist republic of Massachusettes is run by......DEMOCRATS....Coupe de Ville Patrick, protege of Barak Obama...this is too easy!!!!!
[QUOTE=The Dad Fisherman;586391]So what you're saying is that you don't support any of the troops in Iraq or Afghanistan if they are registered Democrats, because they are supporting a Marxist Ideaology and therefore are Unpatriotic and Anti- American.
not as long as they follow orders....but I would say that if they are deeply steeped in Marxist theology, they might be fighting on the wrong side....I'm guessing there are very few...
not as long as they follow orders....but I would say that if they are deeply steeped in Marxist theology, they might be fighting on the wrong side....I'm guessing there are very few...
That sounds pretty "Gray" to me....I thought it was Black and White. If they support a Marxist Ideaology they are Unpatriotic and Un-American....Period.
"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
ScottW, sounds like your views are in the minority of what most Americans believe and perhaps you should re-examine them as they infact, may be "Un-American".
HAPPY MAY DAY COMRADES!!! if i'm a minority then I'm gonna be looking for some bennies......I would never assume to know what "MOST AMERICANS" believe...that would involve a pretty extensive poll, I do laugh when I hear politicians and pundints suggest that they know what most of America thinks and believes...and I have seen the electoral maps post-election...pretty telling
That sounds pretty "Gray" to me....I thought it was Black and White. If they support a Marxist Ideaology they are Unpatriotic and Un-American....Period.
I'm trying to think of history's great Marxists and their lasting contributions to our planet? Can you name a few??
I'm trying to think of history's great Marxists and their lasting contributions to our planet? Can you name a few??
oh...oh. I know some contibutions!!!
Starvation.
Massive food lines.
Crumbling Infrastructure.
Economic Stagnation.
Lack of scientific and social growth.
Look at these bastions of political strength that adhered to a Marxist philosphy.:
"The following countries had governments at some point in the twentieth century who at least nominally adhered to Marxism: Albania, Afghanistan, Angola, Benin, Bulgaria, Chile, China, Republic of Congo, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Ethiopia, Grenada, Hungary, Laos, Moldova, Mongolia, Mozambique, Nepal, Nicaragua, North Korea, Poland, Romania, Russia, the USSR and its republics, South Yemen, Yugoslavia, Venezuela, Vietnam. In addition, the Indian states of Kerala and West Bengal have had Marxist governments. Some of these governments such as in Venezuela, Nicaragua, Chile, Moldova and parts of India have been democratic in nature and maintained regular multiparty elections, while most governments claiming to be Marxist in nature have established one-party governments."
The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope. ~John Buchan
For me it's simple..black and white some would say, I consider anyone who demonstrates a political ideaology that more closely resembles Marx and Mao than that of Madison and Adams to be at their core Unpatriotic and Anti-American,
Black or White....Yes or No.......You made the statement, not me.
Are the troops that are registered Democrats UnPatriotic and Anti-American.......or is there a "Gray" Area?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
I'm trying to think of history's great Marxists and their lasting contributions to our planet? Can you name a few??
Are you gonna answer the Question or are you going to start a new Thread
"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
first there are a lot of dems that don't subscribe to Marxist theory, but I thought that on a day like today when there are a whole lot of marches and protests round the country with folks sporting Che Guevara tee shirts and bashing the country I thought it would be interesting to spark a little conversation on the subject, apparently there are many who either support or will not condemn...interesting...
any soldier in the US military, however they are affiliated or registered has the the right to their own beliefs, if said military member was to subscribe to Marxist theory and I found myself in a foxhole with him in say , Columbia helping our ally to beat back Marxist rebels funded by Hugo Chavez and I knew that he/she had their Che Guevara tee shirt under their fatigues and deep down actually sympathized with the dudes shooting at me.....well....do I have to answer that ?
would I consider a member of the military dedicated to Marxist views to be unpatriotic?...the answer is yes, can't see how the two jive, but that's just me
Really??? so if a member of the US military harbors radical islamic beliefs, that's ok too...where do YOU draw the line?? is this also tolerance for differing thought, should members of his unit have any concern, you guys are disappointing me...this country was founded on Liberty and Freedom, there's no freeodm associated with Marxism, how many failed examples do you need...Marxism demands slavery to the state, Europe is a mess, their little socialist democracies couldn't make it on their own so they've banded together so suck each others blood for a while, till that runs out, the healthcare model that Clinton and Obama propose is failing miserably in Canada, England and everywhere else, but that doesn't matter, just keep trashing the best healthcare in the world...make everyone dependent on government for everything, that's is the montra of the left...they make it sound real sweet, "don't cry for me America"...always results in great pain...but like I said...you've got a 50/50 shot at Marxist Eutopia....
You made a direct correlation that being a democrat (unless of course you were talking republican below) also means you support Marxism. You made no mention or distinction that it had anything to do with supporting Marxist views, which is totally different. You said its Black and white. Obviously it isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
one of our two predominant parties is run and funded by folks that would love to shove Marxism down our throats and fundamentally change this country, they'd prefer to rip up our founding documents and create their own new and improved version of the Communist Manifesto,
Now you say that there are a lot of Dems that don't......again I thought it was Black and White. Can you make up your mind please
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
first there are a lot of dems that don't subscribe to Marxist theory,
"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
See, now your fine tuning....we went from an entire politcal party to 1 member of the military. and in that situation, whether Radical Islam or Commie Sympathiser....its NOT OK....but that is an isolated case......Not one big Stereotype that you were aiming at before
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
Really??? so if a member of the US military harbors radical islamic beliefs, that's ok too...where do YOU draw the line?? is this also tolerance for differing thought, should members of his unit have any concern, you guys are disappointing me...this country was founded on Liberty and Freedom, there's no freeodm associated with Marxism, how many failed examples do you need...Marxism demands slavery to the state, Europe is a mess, their little socialist democracies couldn't make it on their own so they've banded together so suck each others blood for a while, till that runs out, the healthcare model that Clinton and Obama propose is failing miserably in Canada, England and everywhere else, but that doesn't matter, just keep trashing the best healthcare in the world...make everyone dependent on government for everything, that's is the montra of the left...they make it sound real sweet, "don't cry for me America"...always results in great pain...but like I said...you've got a 50/50 shot at Marxist Eutopia....
"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
This type of branding of alternate frames of reference and differing points of view as somtething un-american are the same as they have always been. Same turd different toilet. It is a personal attack, inciting distastes for things perceived to be disloyal thereby prematurely cutting off further dialogue and any reconciliation. As it applies here in this thread it is a very weak argument technique.
Every once in a while something draws me out of my Lurkdom
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
that should grab...
OK, so this gets thrown around a lot, many lefties whine that they're unfairly labled when they do stupid stuff that undermines their own country...go figure
I'll go first, but I should clarify the fact that I have no issue with anyone of any race, creed, color or belief or previous residence somewhere else in the solar system that comes to the good ole' USA through our generous "legal" channels and creates a life for themselves and their future generations abiding by our laws and traditions. I believe that while we are a society of vast differences individually, what binds us is and adherence and belief in the principles that were discussed in the Federalist papers, put down in our Constitution and reinforced in the Bill of Rights, these guiding principles establish rights and responsibilities of individuals and more importantly limit the role of government over individuals, I do not believe that these are living and breathing documents, they are the pillars of our society structure meant to stand the test of time and tinkering by those intending to erode their importance.
For me it's simple..black and white some would say, I consider anyone who demonstrates a political ideaology that more closely resembles Marx and Mao than that of Madison and Adams to be at their core Unpatriotic and Anti-American, might be a little controversial for some, but hey, we're just talkin', right? The two just simply just can't co-exist and the former has been an utter failure everywhere it's been tried and the latter has resulted in great progress and unparalleled advancement for the entire globe...I know that's fogotten a lot....but it's true...
one of our two predominant parties is run and funded by folks that would love to shove Marxism down our throats and fundamentally change this country, they'd prefer to rip up our founding documents and create their own new and improved version of the Communist Manifesto, this time it will work because it will be better funded and smarter, more "ENLIGHTENED" folks will be implementing it ..and I'm tired of the smug looks and arrogant comments from those that continually subvert this nation, from the politicians that swear to uphold the laws of their respective states and country and then attack those that operate in that capacity(Ted Kennedy, John Kerry), governors that refuse to obey federal laws and declare "sanctuary cities" and operate their cities like their own little social experiment, American citizens that trave abroad and use their status to trash their own country and prop up thugs that seek out demise...
so where do you draw the line....it will be drawn in this election
Everything he said is
You post reads an awful lot like a manifesto. But it lacks any facts, substantiated claims, real ideas or solutions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
that should grab...
what binds us is and adherence and belief in the principles that were discussed in the Federalist papers, put down in our Constitution and reinforced in the Bill of Rights, these guiding principles establish rights and responsibilities of individuals and more importantly limit the role of government over individuals, I do not believe that these are living and breathing documents, they are the pillars of our society structure meant to stand the test of time and tinkering by those intending to erode their importance.
So the Constitution should never be changed? Then you would have opposed Amendment XIII Ending Slavery? Amendment XIX Womens’ Suffrage? Amendment XXI Ending Prohibition? Do you consider these amendments mere “tinkering”?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
I consider anyone who demonstrates a political ideaology that more closely resembles Marx and Mao than that of Madison and Adams to be at their core Unpatriotic and Anti-American
To what political ideology which is espoused by whom are you referring? I’m not aware of any candidate that wants to abolish capitalism as Marx would have. Can you show me where you read that? Can you show me some evidence? A quote? Even a misquote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
one of our two predominant parties is run and funded by folks that would love to shove Marxism down our throats and fundamentally change this country, they'd prefer to rip up our founding documents and create their own new and improved version
Surely you would not approve of a government that would establish secret prisons where they engage in torture and then lie that they even exist. That sounds like Stalin. Are you a fan of Stalin? Last I checked there was something in the Constitution about the right to a trial….and a ban on cruel and unusual punishment? Are those human rights or just American rights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
I'm tired of the smug looks and arrogant comments from those that continually subvert this nation, from the politicians that swear to uphold the laws of their respective states and country and then attack those that operate in that capacity(Ted Kennedy, John Kerry),
When have Kennedy and Kerry attacked those who defend us? Again, cite some evidence please. I thought you were referring to the Bush Administration which exposed a CIA operative (defender of the U.S.), risking her life for their own political gain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
…governors that refuse to obey federal laws and declare "sanctuary cities" and operate their cities like their own little social experiment,
I agree. Immigration policy and enforcement is a function of the federal government. So I’m sure you opposed the Gov. of RI who asked State and local police departments to investigate matters involving immigration. (The Prov. Police chief refused). Or do you agree with Gov. Carcieri’s “own little social experiment” which circumvents the federal government's authority set forth the Constitution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
OK, so this gets thrown around a lot, many lefties whine that they're unfairly labled when they do stupid stuff that undermines their own country...
You haven’t listed any specific “stupid stuff” or who has done it and when. Yet somehow it is a mystery to you that people would “whine” that they are unfairly labeled. Should we enjoy being unfairly labeled? Your entire post was all label and no fact!
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
For me it's simple..black and white ...
I agree. Your unsubstantiated opinions are indeed simple-minded.
The current administration is corrupt, morally and politically though I don't have any idea how a politician these days can get to the office of commander in chief or vice c.i.c. without being a touch so.
You have lost personal freedoms,the "Patriot Act" has accomplished this in the very function that Ol Ben Franklin warned about.
Government for the People and by the People is no longer a reality on the federal scale and is rapidly being lost on the state scale and in some town meetings.
Our President is a liar and unworthy of the office he holds and his Vice President is even worse. Turns out that Rumsfeld was actually the only one who wanted to get out of Iraq when it was realized that they, after going in on false pretenses and not fully prepared ( exit strategy), had screwed the pooch.
Can you be of differing political and social values and be an American and Patriotic? YOU BET YOUR ASS YOU CAN! And that is what makes this country great. One idealogical path for all citizens is no different than a view of communism or Marxism in it's intolerance of other types if it allows no dissention or differing thought and squashes those views from being heard by the act of Freedom of Speech.
Soldiers can harbor differing views as well and though some be be radical as long as they do not promote harm or injustice to others they are free to harbor those ideologies. It's guaranteed by our Constitution. Soldiers and sailors and airmen will all tell you that after thier tours are over and after they have been through war or posted in less fortubnate countries that they feel more patriotic because of what we have here and what we have here is because of our constitution. The patriotism is not based on support of the administration but of the people and the freedoms we have to think differently, worship or not worship as we see fit, go where we want ,wear what we want, listen to whom and what we want say what we want to say and so on.
Soldiers do thier duty, they have sworn to it and most don't like most of the situations they are in and all in all when put in a bad situation they fight not for the administration's ideals ( or lies as in our current Iraq involvement) but for the support of each other in that situation once there, for survival of each other. The current Iraq mess is not a patriotic war where we were attacked and our way of life threatened. The war on terror may be but Iraq was not part of that war. The guy who we needed to go after who actually does threaten us still lives in a cave in Afghanistan/Pakistan. He probably laughs his way to and from daily prayers about Iraq.
Patriotism and being a true American means following the ideals of the constitution and the core values that it speciffically states. Free speech, right to assemble, pursuit of happiness and equality and that being the case, in a true constitutional America anyone is free to say and believe what he wants when he wants and where he wants no matter how radical.
The constitution is under attack today by a manipulating adminstration who seeks to change the basic core values to suit thier agenda. In that case our current administration is actually totally un-patriotic and un-american don't you think?
thereby prematurely cutting off further dialogue and any reconciliation. As it applies here in this thread it is a very weak argument technique.
wow robert
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