The absence of "God" from the democratic party platform

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by chrisjoe13

I meant Urim and Thummim.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Thanks for the "revelation." Was unfamiliar with Urim and Thummim so I had to look it up. None of the explanations mention "seeing" God. Some religions create "images" of God or gods which other religions call false idols. So-called Judeo-Christian religions don't seem to purport an actual "seeing" of God, rather they require a belief in God, sort of a blind belief rather than a "seeing is believing" faith. On the other hand, there is a mystical aspect to Christianity, and to religions in general, that "sees" nature and the physical universe as the handiwork of God. So that everything you "see" is, in some pantheistic way, an identification of God, so, in a sense, you "see" God when you "see." So you don't need "magic goggles to see god." Your God-given eyes will do just fine.

Anyway, I was just using your statement as a comparison to the Houdini like magic of progressive transformation of the Constitution. Perhaps that is of less importance to you than seeing God. Quite understandable.

[detbuch]

[Originally quoted by detbuch: "Perhaps there are different types of "magic." There is the magic of the unseen that moves the human spirit, and there is the flim-flam slight of hand magic that tricks us into seeing what is not there."]

Originally Posted by numbskull

And that, sirs, is as good an explanation of how religion works as you are going to see.

Well . . . no. Different religions and different types of religions "work" in different ways. I am not "religious" in the sense of adhering to a dogmatic faith that celebrates the Creator with formal rituals or remembrances or artifacts or representations. I do have a growing sense, if not a belief, that there is something other than the material world that is "too much with us." My reference to the human spirit is a portion of that "something" or "Creator" which encompasses the mystery of existence and inspires so much beyond the flesh we are bound and heir to. I believe it is that human spirit that motivates us unwittingly to mimic that Creator by crafting our own minor creations, whether art, or technology, or civilizations, or the quest for "truth." I have a fuller understanding of Keats's "beauty is truth, truth beauty--That is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know" which so mystified me as a young college freshman.

Though there are flim-flam clerics, there are also true believers. I see true believers in their religion as an expression of spirit and its connection to a Creator. The trappings of religion may seem silly to non-believers, but may be seen as a beautiful human creation to those who do not know how other to connect their spirit to their "unseen" Creator.

But there are other types of "religion." Secular "religions" which replace a supernatural Creator entirely with human creation. Various philosophies and systems of government, for instance. Progressivism is one such philosophical system of government, and one that has specialized in the slight of hand transformation of American government by tricking us into seeing things in our Constitution that are not there. That was the real point of my comments, certainly not about how religion works.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by detbuch

[Originally quoted by detbuch: "Perhaps there are different types of "magic." There is the magic of the unseen that moves the human spirit, and there is the flim-flam slight of hand magic that tricks us into seeing what is not there."]



Well . . . no. Different religions and different types of religions "work" in different ways.

Though there are flim-flam clerics, there are also true believers. I see true believers in their religion as an expression of spirit and its connection to a Creator. The trappings of religion may seem silly to non-believers, but may be seen as a beautiful human creation to those who do not know how other to connect their spirit to their "unseen" Creator.
.

Well actually.....yes.

You grasp only part of it......the bit about religion being a means of connection to something greater, which clearly humans long for whether you call it God, and Creator, Love, or Common Humanity (in the case of secularists).

The trouble is that organized religion codifies that connection. This makes it easier for its members to find the connection, but it also serves to separate them from the remaining majority of humanity. History is full of examples of the inhumanity that results, and certainly Christianity is right up there with the worst offenders.

The means of codification entails creating a deterministic, anthropomorphic "God", who speaks to his priests and conveys his wishes to those who have created him. This empowers those who interpret God's wishes for the rest of us. When humans are empowered bad stuff results more often than good stuff. Flim-flammary at its worst, for sure.

An excellent read for anyone interested in the process of organized religion is the "History of God". It is a fascinating recounting of the history behind the major religions and how religious dogma evolved to reflect the hand (and agenda) of man far more than the hand of God.

This is not to bash religion. I go to church and get a lot out of it. Religion at its best is wonderful stuff, but religion at its most literal is not.

[Piscator]

Took a Theology class in college that covered the three main religions (Judaism, Christianity & Muslim). Was very surprised at how close all 3 are and how they spun/evolved off each other.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Piscator

Took a Theology class in college that covered the three main religions (Judaism, Christianity & Muslim). Was very surprised at how close all 3 are and how they spun/evolved off each other.

Like i mentioned before, they all believe pretty much in the same God. They are all based on "Third Party"...... Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed

All 3 also recognize Jerusalem as the Holy Land as well.

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Like i mentioned before, they all believe pretty much in the same God. They are all based on "Third Party"...... Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed

All 3 also recognize Jerusalem as the Holy Land as well.

Sounds like the "middle man" is causing the problem

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Piscator

Sounds like the "middle man" is causing the problem

the Middle men are fine...

Its more of a Reading Comprehension/Active Listening Skills issue with some of the people who follow

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

the Middle men are fine...

Its more of a Reading Comprehension/Active Listening Skills issue with some of the people who follow

Yup, its all in the INTERPRETATION

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Well actually.....yes.

You grasp only part of it......the bit about religion being a means of connection to something greater, which clearly humans long for whether you call it God, and Creator, Love, or Common Humanity (in the case of secularists).

The part that I "grasp" was my point and to which I referred when I said different religions work in different ways. Of course, my main point was how secular "religions" work, such as progressivism and its slight of hand, flim-flam, interpretation of the Constitution and the transformation of our government.

The trouble is that organized religion codifies that connection. This makes it easier for its members to find the connection, but it also serves to separate them from the remaining majority of humanity. History is full of examples of the inhumanity that results, and certainly Christianity is right up there with the worst offenders.

This implies that there is other than "organized" religion. That would be religion working in a different way. Of course, some degree of organization is necessary when two or more people interact. Perhaps, your are concerned with the DEGREE of organization rather the existence of organization. I would agree that the greater the degree of codification is, the less degree their is of individual freedom. Some religions work through free will, others by a conglomerate of very strict, unbending codes. The same can be said of secular "religions" such as forms of government.

As for organized religions serving to separate themselves from the remaining majority of humanity, it may be true that a particular organized religion would do that, but most of humanity belongs to some form of organized religion, godly or secular. All the particuar ones are separate, as each of us as individuals are separate. We seek connection with others, and with God or Creator, because, ultimately, we are each alone. The history of inhumanity inflicted by organized religion, both secular and godly, attests to various religions working in different ways. There are religions (including forms of government) that are considered by many to be "noble" in intent and function. Some start that way and then are "hijacked" by flim-flammers who seek power over the true believers.

The means of codification entails creating a deterministic, anthropomorphic "God", who speaks to his priests and conveys his wishes to those who have created him. This empowers those who interpret God's wishes for the rest of us. When humans are empowered bad stuff results more often than good stuff. Flim-flammary at its worst, for sure.

What you speak of here is government through religion--theocracy. There are "religions" whose mask is godly, but whose face is secular. Man's rule over man is not a function of religions that seek to connect individuals to God or Creator. There are others, but for example, Christianity as originally started was not interested in secular government. Christ preached render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. That this can be usurped by power seeker's is common to all religions or governments or groups of any kind. And power seekers tend to pit power versus power in order to gain more power. The many Christian sects are remnants of bastardized theocratic Christianity that have been reformed back toward original intentions. Though I don't belong to a particular religion and don't go to church, what I have found inspiring in religion is not the codes but the individual search and its often beautiful language and art. Old cathedrals, though entirely man made reach for something that touches the human spirit. No doubt, some powerful rulers were behind their construction, but it took a spiritual element and understanding to build them. Likewise, I have found the language of the Declaration of Independence beautiful and a call to human spirit, and the intent of the Constitution a simple inspiration to individual freedom, in contrast to our present form of overly codified and regulated, and uninspiring government.

Though I agree with most of what you say, I don't agree that, especially under the Constitutional form of government that our Founders created, "When humans are empowered bad stuff results more often than good stuff." I would agree that when tyrants and usurpers are empowered over humans bad stuff results more often than good stuff. I believe that the Founding of this country and its original institution of government empowered humans to cast off the tyrant and much more good stuff than bad stuff happened. We are, unfortunately, in the proces of reversing that and allowing tyrants and usurpers to be empowered over us. Which reminds me of a passage in Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" in which Cassius is speaking to Brutus about Caesar attempting to become dictator--"Men at some time are masters of their fates: The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings." If we allow government to remove our unalienable rights and become empowered over us, making us underlings, the fault is in ourselves.

An excellent read for anyone interested in the process of organized religion is the "History of God". It is a fascinating recounting of the history behind the major religions and how religious dogma evolved to reflect the hand (and agenda) of man far more than the hand of God.


I don't know what God or Creator is, nor do I think that is knowable. So a hisory of what is unknowable does not interest me. History is man's account of man's doings. Obviously such a history would reflect the hand of man more than the hand of God.


This is not to bash religion. I go to church and get a lot out of it. Religion at its best is wonderful stuff, but religion at its most literal is not.

Ironic that I don't go to church and you do. I agree with most of what you have said here, and, it seems to me that your last sentence pertains to my comment that different religions work differently.

[numbskull]

You, of all people, would very much enjoy the book, History of God. I have no agenda recommending it. The book has no agenda, either. It is a very well written intelligent exploration of all the major religions and the forces both good and bad that shaped them. One of the best non-fiction books I have read in my life. Consider it, you'll be glad you did.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by numbskull

You, of all people, would very much enjoy the book, History of God. I have no agenda recommending it. The book has no agenda, either. It is a very well written intelligent exploration of all the major religions and the forces both good and bad that shaped them. One of the best non-fiction books I have read in my life. Consider it, you'll be glad you did.

I will definitley read this. I love this stuff. I read the book "The Source" by James Michner and while it is fiction, Michners style is to go back in time and create stories that are historically accurate. His views on the development of religion where mind blowing to me. I will put in an order from amazon asap for this book, thanks numby

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by numbskull

You, of all people, would very much enjoy the book, History of God. I have no agenda recommending it. The book has no agenda, either. It is a very well written intelligent exploration of all the major religions and the forces both good and bad that shaped them. One of the best non-fiction books I have read in my life. Consider it, you'll be glad you did.

OK, you've persuaded me. I ordered the book.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by numbskull

History is full of examples of the inhumanity that results, and certainly Christianity is right up there with the worst offenders.

When humans are empowered bad stuff results more often than good stuff. Flim-flammary at its worst, for sure.

George, I've seen versions of your first comment tossed about as an attack on religeon in general and Christianity in particular, it is incomplete in many ways.....it leaves out the good that organized religeion and Christianity have done throughout history and wrongly attributes many examples of the inhumanity to the religeous institution rather than to the individuals who perverted or bastardized the religeon for their own intentions..history is full of examples...I think if you add up the examples of inhumanty perpetrated by those perverting religeon with those amoral examples of those perverting the other religeon(statism) .....you arrive at quite a body count

funny that many who make this broad claim regarding Christianity often insist that the violence coming from the religeon of peace is nothing more that a few radicals who have perverted the religeon for their own ends....seem to want to have it both ways

for the second I'd argue that when humans are empowered good things can happen and will happen more often than not if the human has a solid moral underpinning and good intentions and if those that empower the human(but not to the height of worship) have a solid understanding of the principles and concepts that they are empowering the human to represent....it's when amoral, relativist humans who practice slight of hand meet and decieve the empowering humans who may be subject to flim flam because they aren't rooted in the basics of morality and principles of their "beliefs" that bad things happen