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| Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi: |
12-10-2019, 10:38 AM
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#1
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Who said this?
“The liberal idea has become obsolete, It has come into conflict with the interests of the overwhelming majority of the population.”
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Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 11:00 AM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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Anybody who is paying attention would say that.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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12-10-2019, 11:55 AM
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#3
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
Anybody who is paying attention would say that.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Wrong, though perhaps I should have said this is the word liberal in the 18th century sense that our government was founded as a "liberal" democracy. |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 12:01 PM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
Anybody who is paying attention would say that.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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anyone who lives in CT who doesn’t work for the government could say it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
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12-10-2019, 12:24 PM
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#5
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Liberalism, as it developed in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and flowered in the nineteenth, puts major emphasis on the freedom of individuals to control their own destinies. Individualism is its creed, collectivism and tyranny its enemy….In politics, liberalism expressed itself as a reaction against authoritarian regimes. Liberals favored limiting the rights of hereditary rulers, establishing democratic parliamentary institutions, extending the franchise, and guaranteeing civil rights. They favored such measures both for their own sake, as a direct expression of essential political freedoms, and as a means of facilitating the adoption of liberal economic measures.
Though that would be antithetical to Trumplicans, who are authoritarians at best and Monarchists at heart.
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Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 12:37 PM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Liberalism, as it developed in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and flowered in the nineteenth, puts major emphasis on the freedom of individuals to control their own destinies. Individualism is its creed, collectivism and tyranny its enemy….In politics, liberalism expressed itself as a reaction against authoritarian regimes. Liberals favored limiting the rights of hereditary rulers, establishing democratic parliamentary institutions, extending the franchise, and guaranteeing civil rights. They favored such measures both for their own sake, as a direct expression of essential political freedoms, and as a means of facilitating the adoption of liberal economic measures.
Though that would be antithetical to Trumplicans, who are authoritarians at best and Monarchists at heart.
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Conservatives are authoritarians? Yeah, you really have your fingers on the pulse...And liberals believe in less central government, more liberty to the individual? You literally could not be more wrong.
I'm less free now, than I was from 2009-2016? No rational person believes that. Certainly no Christian believes it. |
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12-10-2019, 01:24 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Liberalism, as it developed in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and flowered in the nineteenth, puts major emphasis on the freedom of individuals to control their own destinies. Individualism is its creed, collectivism and tyranny its enemy….In politics, liberalism expressed itself as a reaction against authoritarian regimes. Liberals favored limiting the rights of hereditary rulers, establishing democratic parliamentary institutions, extending the franchise, and guaranteeing civil rights. They favored such measures both for their own sake, as a direct expression of essential political freedoms, and as a means of facilitating the adoption of liberal economic measures.
Though that would be antithetical to Trumplicans, who are authoritarians at best and Monarchists at heart.
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The liberalism to which you are referring here is called classical liberalism which distinguishes it from what are referred to today as liberals. Those who are now called liberals are more correctly labeled Progressives. Progressives are not liberal in the sense of the classic definition.
The classical liberals who founded this country would be astonished at the power that Progressive government has succeeded in establishing over the individual in this country. They would not be able to conceive of how this form of government could be called liberal--other than how it liberally gives itself the power to excessively spend the people's money and to massively regulate the people's freedoms.
Progressivism, by its American founders, defines government as it has evolved in our time as the machine for creating society's good, and as such should not be inhibited or limited in its power to define and deliver that good. It is, by its own political philosophy, authoritarian, even to the ultimate degree, but in such a way that it would be akin to benevolent dictatorship rather than mere despotism.
The political debate and conflict in this country should not be portrayed as liberals vs. conservatives. Rather it more correctly should be portrayed as Progressives vs. Conservatives. Neither party today is liberal in the classical sense, but Conservatives are closer to the classical liberals than are the Progressives. |
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12-10-2019, 01:35 PM
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#8
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
Conservatives are authoritarians? Yeah, you really have your fingers on the pulse...And liberals believe in less central government, more liberty to the individual? You literally could not be more wrong.
I'm less free now, than I was from 2009-2016? No rational person believes that. Certainly no Christian believes it.
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Trumplicans are not Conservatives
Increased debt
Monarchical powers
Trade restrictions and tariffs
Destruction of historical alliances
Character is unimportant
What does Christianity have to do with Floridaman?
Perhaps like #4 you speak in tongues |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 01:41 PM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
What does Christianity have to do with Floridaman?
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He brought back Christmas, free at last! |
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12-10-2019, 01:45 PM
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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Had Christmas disappeared?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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12-10-2019, 01:55 PM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Trumplicans are not Conservatives
Increased debt.
Can you name a so-called "Conservative" (other than Coolidge--was he called a Conservative?) that has lowered the debt
Monarchical powers
This is nonsense. Progressives are the closest we have to monarchical. Trump has deregulated a lot of the previous administrations monarchical regulations.
Trade restrictions and tariffs
The "liberals" you referred to in another thread as reflected by our Founders imposed these things.
Destruction of historical alliances
Which ones have been "destroyed"?
Character is unimportant
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Character has its place. In itself, it has not been recognized as more important than performance. As has been pointed out, over and over and over on this forum, many, MANY, past presidents have been scoundrels but have been deemed to be great, or at least functional.
You demean the value of character when you over zealously apply it to someone you hate while overlooking its historical importance. |
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12-10-2019, 02:07 PM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
Had Christmas disappeared?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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According to Trump. |
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12-10-2019, 02:09 PM
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#13
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
He brought back Christmas, free at last!
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And saved Thanksgiving too!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 02:12 PM
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#14
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch
Character has its place. In itself, it has not been recognized as more important than performance. As has been pointed out, over and over and over on this forum, many, MANY, past presidents have been scoundrels but have been deemed to be great, or at least functional.
You demean the value of character when you over zealously apply it to someone you hate while overlooking its historical importance.
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“In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it.” |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 03:02 PM
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
“In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it.”
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I prefer the logic that says two and two make four. In most cases that require the application of logic, I have a predominantly classical bent. Is there a logic to your position? |
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12-10-2019, 03:29 PM
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#16
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch
I prefer the logic that says two and two make four. In most cases that require the application of logic, I have a predominantly classical bent. Is there a logic to your position?
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Just some of those alternative facts, Orwellian ones in this case as opposed to the Barred kind
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 03:39 PM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Just some of those alternative facts, Orwellian ones in this case as opposed to the Barred kind
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Orwell was adamantly opposed to Big Brother surveillance. He would have been horrified at the notion that a "liberal" society would spy on its citizens. |
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12-10-2019, 03:58 PM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Trumplicans are not Conservatives
Increased debt
Monarchical powers
Trade restrictions and tariffs
Destruction of historical alliances
Character is unimportant
What does Christianity have to do with Floridaman?
Perhaps like #4 you speak in tongues
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monarch powers? what authority, exactly, does Trump have which Obama did not have?
conservatives don’t love trump. they voted for him, because he was better than the alternative.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
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12-10-2019, 04:38 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
According to Trump.
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Fake news
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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12-10-2019, 05:00 PM
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#20
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 05:03 PM
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#21
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
He brought back Christmas, free at last!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
Had Christmas disappeared?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
According to Trump.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
Fake news
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 05:37 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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He is clearly the greatest president of our lifetime.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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12-10-2019, 05:53 PM
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
monarch powers? what authority, exactly, does Trump have which Obama did not have?
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Trump seems to believe he's a monarch. Looks like a majority of Republican Congresspeople do as well.
The second article of impeachment, obstruction of Congress is undeniable. |
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12-10-2019, 06:36 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
What does Christianity have to do with Floridaman?
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It has to do with Obama, who had no problem trying to force Christian to surrender their religious freedom, in order to force them to pay for elective abortions. In separate lawsuits, the Little Sisters of the Poor, and the owners of Hobby Lobby, successfully sued to get their religious freedom back. The Supreme Court ruled that what Obama tried to force them to do, was unconstitutional.
Christians have no such worries under Trump. Not saying he's a Christian by any stretch, but I don't see him telling me that my religion is exempt from the benefit of the First Amendment.
Any of that wrong?
Interestingly, the Obama administration ruled that Muslim truck drivers could not be forced to transport alcohol. The Obama administration said that you can't force Muslims to abandon their religious beliefs while at work. Clearly, Obama didn't think that right extended to Christians when it came to providing for abortions, or when it comes to gay marriage. Some animals are more equal than others...
Last edited by Jim in CT; 12-10-2019 at 06:49 PM..
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12-10-2019, 06:37 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
Trump seems to believe he's a monarch. Looks like a majority of Republican Congresspeople do as well.
The second article of impeachment, obstruction of Congress is undeniable.
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Most republicans in congress see Trump as a monarch? Evidence, please? |
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12-10-2019, 07:10 PM
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#26
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
It has to do with Obama, who had no problem trying to force Christian to surrender their religious freedom, in order to force them to pay for elective abortions. In separate lawsuits, the Little Sisters of the Poor, and the owners of Hobby Lobby, successfully sued to get their religious freedom back. The Supreme Court ruled that what Obama tried to force them to do, was unconstitutional.
Christians have no such worries under Trump. Not saying he's a Christian by any stretch, but I don't see him telling me that my religion is exempt from the benefit of the First Amendment.
Any of that wrong?
Interestingly, the Obama administration ruled that Muslim truck drivers could not be forced to transport alcohol. The Obama administration said that you can't force Muslims to abandon their religious beliefs while at work. Clearly, Obama didn't think that right extended to Christians when it came to providing for abortions, or when it comes to gay marriage. Some animals are more equal than others...
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Floridaman has also lost in court where he stepped on the Constitution or overstepped his authority and trampled on people’s rights
He’s currently being impeached for violating his oath of office
But no problem with that for you
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-10-2019, 10:26 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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He is clearly the greatest president of our lifetime
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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12-10-2019, 11:44 PM
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#28
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
He is clearly the greatest president of our lifetime
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Days after getting mocked by European leaders and Trudeau in a viral video, Trump claims, "this country is so respected. And we were not respected four years ago. We were laughed at."
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-11-2019, 12:23 AM
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#29
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
“The liberal idea has become obsolete, It has come into conflict with the interests of the overwhelming majority of the population.”
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Vladimir Putin
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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12-11-2019, 12:42 AM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Vladimir Putin
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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He's made a lot of omelettes. |
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