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Old 09-10-2010, 06:24 AM   #61
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if you want to read about stuff burning and have a little time on your hands....Google "muslim unrest" or "muslim riots" and then the country of your choice....France, England, China, Australia, Spain, Netherlands...any of the middle east or african countries...on and on....try the same with any other religeon...just for comparison
Sweden...Cambodia, Phillipines, Indonesia, Greece........Germany, Ireland...Russia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan

great piece today....
The Eternal Flame of Muslim Outrage - Article - National Review Online
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Old 09-10-2010, 06:57 AM   #62
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I agree, this "stunt" once again showed the muslims true colors. Been saying that this whole thread. Barbaric religious uncivilized loons. But that will be lost to most as they focus on the crazy pastorn not the WORLDWIDE reaction. Our secretary of defense call him, the president pleads with him. The mightiest nation in the world bows to islamic fear. Osama, you've won.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:27 AM   #63
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The mightiest nation in the world bows to islamic fear. Osama, you've won.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.

-spence
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:41 AM   #64
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It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.

-spence

This is not about the "fringe Right". You really are clueless.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:47 AM   #65
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This is not about the "fringe Right". You really are clueless.
And you don't read. Remember what happened last time when you didn't read?

The scary part is you have fringes on both sides influencing a good part of the middle. They're going to lead everyone to war before you know it.

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Old 09-10-2010, 07:57 AM   #66
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spence, you've lost it.
They can burn the bible, torah, koran, whatever - separation of church and state......right?
Practice what we preach? we preach individual FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!
responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks. THIS GUY WAS BURNING A F"IN BOOK!!!
He wasnt doin one damn thing to ANYONES freedom to practive their religion.

welcome to america, dont like it? hurt your feelings? spend a month in Saudi Arabia and try to get a beer and pick up a girl. You'll be thrown in jail or beheaded.

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Old 09-10-2010, 08:13 AM   #67
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It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy(oh, no...he could have done this anytime and the examples above prove the reaction would be similar) in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain. based on what is evident worldwide and the very open threats when Islam doesn't get it way..should we not fear?
We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights. mono sodium glutomate?

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach? where exactly have we not practiced what we preached, for the millionth time, noone has said he couldn't build the GZ Mosque only that he shouldn't build it there...I think like 80% of Americans and a large majority of New Yorkers...wow...the crazy Right Wing has really expanded

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.currently the oppsite is true, at least according to Rauf
-spence
you obviously can't hold all muslims as violent but a quick look around the globe show far more than a just tiny minority of radicals causing the trouble, just as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have claimed to speak for the black community, Rauf claims to speak for the muslim community and he nothing but a two faced weasel who works shady deals and uses fear, racism and demands for tolerance to further his agenda...hope he continues to do interviews...IT'S GREAT WHEN "MODERATE MUSLIMS" SUGGEST THAT VIOLENCE WILL OCCUR FROM "RADICAL MUSLIMS" IF THE "MODERATE MUSLIMS" DON'T GET WHAT THEY WANT

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Old 09-10-2010, 08:14 AM   #68
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spence, you've lost it.
Nope, still in control.

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They can burn the bible, torah, koran, whatever - separation of church and state......right?
Practice what we preach? we preach individual FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!
From an outside perspective many think we preach individual freedom when we choose, and that our beliefs don't apply to them. Why else would we let Israel punish Palestinians, ship off children and old men to GITMO and inflict tens or hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties all in the name of Freedom?

Is anyone more free as a result?

Agree or disagree this is a very real and very common viewpoint outside of the US, and not just by Muslims. Hell, just go north a few hours to CANADA, 'ey.

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responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks.
You're generalizing again.

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THIS GUY WAS BURNING A F"IN BOOK!!!
He wasnt doin one damn thing to ANYONES freedom to practive their religion.
As I said above, the real issue here isn't about the pastor. The white elephant in the room is how American's fear and mistrust of Islam is being exploited.

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welcome to america, dont like it? hurt your feelings? spend a month in Saudi Arabia and try to get a beer and pick up a girl. You'll be thrown in jail or beheaded.
Ahh, the old "we must be right because we're better than them" defense.

I think I'd rather lead by example.

-spence
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:16 AM   #69
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[QUOTE=spence;793807]Nope, still in control.



that was awesome

In control like Chris Mattews on a "the right sucks and is ruining the world" rant

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Old 09-10-2010, 08:28 AM   #70
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Nope, still in control.



From an outside perspective many think we preach individual freedom when we choose, and that our beliefs don't apply to them. Why else would we let Israel punish Palestinians, ship off children and old men to GITMO and inflict tens or hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties all in the name of Freedom?

Is anyone more free as a result?

Agree or disagree this is a very real and very common viewpoint outside of the US, and not just by Muslims. Hell, just go north a few hours to CANADA, 'ey.


You're generalizing again.


As I said above, the real issue here isn't about the pastor. The white elephant in the room is how American's fear and mistrust of Islam is being exploited.


Ahh, the old "we must be right because we're better than them" defense.

I think I'd rather lead by example.

-spence
the fear and mistrust of islam is not being exploited - its rationale is being highlighted. did anyone in their right mind thing the reaction would be different? DEATH TO AMERICA!!!!
and for the record, our beliefs do not apply to them. thats why we have different laws. dont turn this into some broad reaching discussion, this is a guy in Florida wanting to do something that insults muslims and they turn it into a worldwide incident because. NONE OF THE WORLDS FREAKIN BUSINESS.

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Old 09-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #71
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responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks.

You're generalizing again.

really? Are their LAWS in Iran that permit stoning? Are there state sponsored (Libya, Iran, Previously Iraq) agencies that support suicide bombers? See, you have the "vicitm" mentality hat on, you are wrong. Do women have rights in musliom countries? Its not generalizing its FACTS. I dont write their laws, maybe you do? tell me spence, if I go to Saudi Arabia and yell Allah sucks ******, how long will I live? thats not a generalization, its a fact.

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Old 09-10-2010, 08:50 AM   #72
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just a few crazy radical......

A crowd, which a government official estimated at 10,000, poured out of mosques into the streets of Faizabad, the capital of Badakhshan in Afghanistan's northeast, after special prayers for Eid al-Fitr, the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.

One protester was shot dead when a smaller group attacked a German-run NATO base in Faizabad, hurling stones at the outpost, a spokesman for the provincial government said.

Afghan security forces rushed to the scene to restore order, and three police were hurt when stones the crowd was hurling hit them, the spokesman said.

A spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Kabul the force is aware of the Faizabad protests and were checking the incident.

Eight Christian aid workers were killed by unidentified gunmen in remote and rugged Badakhshan last month. wow - where was the muslim uproar, aid workers????Several hundred gathered in a northern district of Kabul, while about 2,000 marched on a government building in western Farah, officials and witnesses said. There were also protests in nearby Badghis in the northwest and Ghor and Herat in the west.

Similar protests over perceived desecration of Muslim symbols have led to dozens of deaths in Afghanistan in recent years, including after a Danish newspaper published a cartoon depicting the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.
'We Will Attack U.S. Bases,' Muslim Cleric Warns

In eastern Nangahar, tribal chiefs threatened to attack NATO bases near the Pakistan border if Jones went ahead with the plan. "If they do this, we will attack American bases and close the highway used by convoys supplying American troops," a cleric named Zahidullah told Reuters.
At mosques in the capital, clerics also labeled the plan dangerous. "Muslims are ready to sacrifice their sons, fathers and mothers for Islam and the Koran," one preacher said at one Kabul mosque to cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest). silly, dont they know its only the radical fringe, just ask spence!

The polls are seen as a key test of stability in Afghanistan before Obama conducts a war strategy review in December. Obama has said the plan, dismissed by conservatives and liberals alike as an attention-seeking stunt, would be a "recruitment bonanza" for al Qaeda.

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Old 09-10-2010, 09:04 AM   #73
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tell me spence, if I go to Saudi Arabia and yell Allah sucks ******, how long will I live? thats not a generalization, its a fact.
WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:08 AM   #74
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WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....
Dad F has been pretty sane on this issue. Suprisingly its spence who is way out there.

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Old 09-10-2010, 09:21 AM   #75
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WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....
Actually, if you go to Faizabad and get in the middle of this and yell Allah Sucks.........and they cut your head off, don't come crying to me.

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:23 AM   #76
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The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:26 AM   #77
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The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.
EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________

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Old 09-10-2010, 09:40 AM   #78
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EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________
Freikin Lutherans....those bastards

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Old 09-10-2010, 09:48 AM   #79
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This is what I dont get. This is from the imam who was negotiating with the wacky pastor.

The imam said he feels Jones is a "good person at heart" who simply got himself into a difficult position and could not back down despite calls from Christian and world leaders.

"He could not back down, and I felt that it's my responsibility, as the Muslim leader in central Florida, to go up to him and speak one-on-one with him and explain that he's putting American lives in danger and he should reconsider."

So, why is the imam saying American lives are in danger and asking the pastor to stop instead of saying to the muslims worldwide that this act does not impact our religion and is the work of a small group of people. Then say that we are a peaceful religion and should not harm anyone.
The Imam agrees that PEOPLE OF HIS RELIGION will kill people. And it appears its ok???? Whats the real "wrong" here, buring the Korans or killing people as a result????? For me, this is the core of the problem with the Muslim "voice". They do not speak up about the atrocities that are commited in their religions name. Here is a perfect example. The message - dont do it because mulsims in the world will kill americans. Huh????

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Old 09-10-2010, 09:50 AM   #80
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RIJ, you're posting nonsense too quickly. I can't keep up...at least ScottW is pacing himself. Scott, thank you...

My favorite was your evidence that all Muslims are crazy, by citing a presently inflamed, already extreme part of a war torn country that's seen little but death and destruction for the past 30 years.

Why can't these people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

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EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________
And from another perspective American and Russian bombs caused far more death and destruction than any actions taken in the name of Islam the last 30 years.

Instead of focusing on the religion, you should try taking a look at the history and present geopolitical environment that has shaped the modern world.

Most of the Islamic countries we see as higher risk didn't even exist or pretend to self govern until the 1940's. The influence of crumbling Colonization (followed immediately by the Cold War) combined with the abundance of fossil fuels (not to mention strategic geographic locations) on regional policies can't be ignored when trying to understand the situation or possible outcomes.

But you Jimmy just want them to let bygones be bygones and move along already.

Who's going to cut my head off again?

-spence
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:57 AM   #81
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The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.
wiki

Immediate cause

The immediate cause of the First Crusade was the Byzantine emperor Alexios I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire.

*Barry Soetoro should order NASA to build the Ground Zero Mosque...after all, he did order it NASA's prime objective to make the muslim world feel good about themselves and it will probably look kinda like a rocket...right?

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Old 09-10-2010, 10:16 AM   #82
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RIJ, you're posting nonsense too quickly. I can't keep up...at least ScottW is pacing himself. Scott, thank you...

My favorite was your evidence that all Muslims are crazy, by citing a presently inflamed, already extreme part of a war torn country that's seen little but death and destruction for the past 30 years.

Why can't these people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?


And from another perspective American and Russian bombs caused far more death and destruction than any actions taken in the name of Islam the last 30 years.

Instead of focusing on the religion, you should try taking a look at the history and present geopolitical environment that has shaped the modern world.

Most of the Islamic countries we see as higher risk didn't even exist or pretend to self govern until the 1940's. The influence of crumbling Colonization (followed immediately by the Cold War) combined with the abundance of fossil fuels (not to mention strategic geographic locations) on regional policies can't be ignored when trying to understand the situation or possible outcomes.

But you Jimmy just want them to let bygones be bygones and move along already.

Who's going to cut my head off again?

-spence

um, er, ah, um - whats that have to do with some guy buring a book?

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Old 09-10-2010, 10:18 AM   #83
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um, er, ah, um - whats that have to do with some guy buring a book?
they are victims
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:21 AM   #84
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they are victims
makes sense. Also, how does Spence's reply factor into all the Muslim unrest in the rest of the world you posted? I love the Sweden one. Those swedes are an intolerant bunch. yes, its everyones fault. They have a right to their actions.

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Old 09-10-2010, 12:10 PM   #85
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I hope the book burning won't risk the lives of our troops. At least not as much as the Obama supported release of Gitmo pictures.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:57 PM   #86
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I hope the book burning won't risk the lives of our troops. At least not as much as the Obama supported release of Gitmo pictures.
Funny, and all the while I thought it was the subject matter of the photos which was the problem.

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Old 09-10-2010, 04:04 PM   #87
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Funny, and all the while I thought it was the subject matter of the photos which was the problem.

-spence
No.

Hmmm, wonder if I go back to that thread,which side of the fence you were on.

Can we at least agree that Islam has a problem with terrorism that other religions don't seem to have. You can't fix the problem if you won't confront the truths.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:15 PM   #88
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makes sense. Also, how does Spence's reply factor into all the Muslim unrest in the rest of the world you posted? I love the Sweden one. Those swedes are an intolerant bunch. yes, its everyones fault. They have a right to their actions.
I think Europe shares a lot of the blame for their issues with Islam, which of course, have their roots in history along with a general intolerance of outsiders in general.

For instance the flap last year in Switzerland to constitutionally ban the construction of minarets was driven by the Right wing through a campaign of fear similar to what we've seen here at home. France has had many issues with Islam, as they've never dealt with the assimilation of north African colonies. Sweeden's problems probably have more to do with the collapse of the welfare state more than anything else...and ABBA.

Of course, America is (and is) supposed to be different. We should be setting the standard rather than using the failure of others as an excuse for average or bad behavior.

It won't surprise me at all if we see actual legislation being proposed to limit the "spread" of Islam in the US just as they already have in Europe. The seeds have already been planted...

-spence
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:32 PM   #89
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Can we at least agree that Islam has a problem with terrorism that other religions don't seem to have. You can't fix the problem if you won't confront the truths.
From a Western perspective, Islam absolutely has a problem with radicalization and terrorism, and I'd say that many Western or more liberal Muslims would also share this view.

But I don't think this is a product of Islam as much as Islam has been a contributing factor. Certainly there's an element of piety to Islam that's much stronger than in most mainstream religions, and this can exacerbate geopolitical issues.

Our religious wackos are probably no more crazy than theirs, but the ground rules outside of the First World (and to a lesser degree) are quite different than what we're used to.

Just as you can't comprehend living under Sharia, they can't comprehend the First Amendment. Remember that...

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Old 09-10-2010, 04:34 PM   #90
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I think Europe shares a lot of the blame for their issues with Islam, which of course, have their roots in history along with a general intolerance of outsiders in general.

For instance the flap last year in Switzerland to constitutionally ban the construction of minarets was driven by the Right wing through a campaign of fear similar to what we've seen here at home. France has had many issues with Islam, as they've never dealt with the assimilation of north African colonies. Sweeden's problems probably have more to do with the collapse of the welfare state more than anything else...and ABBA.

Of course, America is (and is) supposed to be different. We should be setting the standard rather than using the failure of others as an excuse for average or bad behavior.

It won't surprise me at all if we see actual legislation being proposed to limit the "spread" of Islam in the US just as they already have in Europe. The seeds have already been planted...

-spence
see..it's not Islam... it's everyone else that makes them mad and want to burn things and kill people
hey Spence, you do know that in Europe the right is really the left, right?
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