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Old 03-31-2016, 04:32 AM   #1
wdmso
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only the dead see the end of war HBO

A must watch

This Documentary Shows How Iraq really was and the development of current day Isis .. and debunks the narrative that Iraq was ever as stable as some would have us believe
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Old 03-31-2016, 06:44 AM   #2
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reviewed at Salon the other day....

MONDAY, MAR 28, 2016 06:57 PM EDT

Michael Ware’s Iraq War doc doesn’t hold up: “Only The Dead See The End Of War” captures the horror and confusion, but skimps on analysis

The Time and CNN war correspondent's disconnected HBO documentary could have been a nonfictional “The Hurt Locker”

SONIA SARAIYA
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:10 AM   #3
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I will check it out this week.

Do an apolitical look at Iraq, all facets, and there is plenty of blame to spread around. Politics is the root of the problem with going in in the first place, effing up once in there, and screwing up the leaving. This is something American politicians have been exceptional at for 150 years - with few exceptions.

I highly recommend the book Dereliction of Duty, by (then Major) General McMaster

http://www.amazon.com/Dereliction-Du.../dp/0060929081

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Old 03-31-2016, 03:03 PM   #4
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reviewed at Salon the other day....

MONDAY, MAR 28, 2016 06:57 PM EDT

Michael Ware’s Iraq War doc doesn’t hold up: “Only The Dead See The End Of War” captures the horror and confusion, but skimps on analysis

The Time and CNN war correspondent's disconnected HBO documentary could have been a nonfictional “The Hurt Locker”

SONIA SARAIYA
So you did't watch it ...
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:04 PM   #5
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I will check it out this week.

Do an apolitical look at Iraq, all facets, and there is plenty of blame to spread around. Politics is the root of the problem with going in in the first place, effing up once in there, and screwing up the leaving. This is something American politicians have been exceptional at for 150 years - with few exceptions.

I highly recommend the book Dereliction of Duty, by (then Major) General McMaster

http://www.amazon.com/Dereliction-Du.../dp/0060929081
Couldn't agree more
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:15 PM   #6
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So you did't watch it ...
no plans to based on the reviews ......and I don't like violence....

VARIETY
MARCH 24, 2016

If a picture is worth a thousand words, it takes an awful lot of pictures – grisly, horrific ones – to drown out the banality of the verbiage in “Only the Dead See the End of War,” Michael Ware’s video memoir of his seven years covering the conflict in Iraq. The Australian journalist’s heavy-handed narration is frequently groan inducing...........Yet while watching it is no picnic due to the graphic nature of what’s on screen, “Only the Dead See the End of War” ultimately proves harder on the ears than it is on the eyes.
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Old 03-31-2016, 07:59 PM   #7
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no plans to based on the reviews ......and I don't like violence....

VARIETY
MARCH 24, 2016

If a picture is worth a thousand words, it takes an awful lot of pictures – grisly, horrific ones – to drown out the banality of the verbiage in “Only the Dead See the End of War,” Michael Ware’s video memoir of his seven years covering the conflict in Iraq. The Australian journalist’s heavy-handed narration is frequently groan inducing...........Yet while watching it is no picnic due to the graphic nature of what’s on screen, “Only the Dead See the End of War” ultimately proves harder on the ears than it is on the eyes.
I can respect not wanting to see it due to the violence..


It Seems Variety thinks war shouldn't been shown for what it is horrific ,and they complain about the banality of the verbiage ??

I think they missed the point .. thats my 2 cents
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:56 PM   #8
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I think they missed the point .. thats my 2 cents
they were probably reviewing it as a movie rather than as a political statement
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:53 PM   #9
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they were probably reviewing it as a movie rather than as a political statement

There was no political statement made at any point .. by anyone ...

not sure why you would think there was one ?
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Old 04-01-2016, 07:01 PM   #10
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no plans to based on the reviews ......and I don't like violence....

VARIETY
MARCH 24, 2016

If a picture is worth a thousand words, it takes an awful lot of pictures – grisly, horrific ones – to drown out the banality of the verbiage in “Only the Dead See the End of War,” Michael Ware’s video memoir of his seven years covering the conflict in Iraq. The Australian journalist’s heavy-handed narration is frequently groan inducing...........Yet while watching it is no picnic due to the graphic nature of what’s on screen, “Only the Dead See the End of War” ultimately proves harder on the ears than it is on the eyes.
You are trusting Salon and Variety for reviews?

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:08 AM   #11
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You are trusting Salon and Variety for reviews?
sure...you listen to Rush Limbaugh don't you?

Last edited by scottw; 04-02-2016 at 02:18 AM..
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:48 AM   #12
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There was no political statement made at any point .. by anyone ...

not sure why you would think there was one ?
"and debunks the narrative that Iraq was ever as stable as some would have us believe"
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:56 AM   #13
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"and debunks the narrative that Iraq was ever as stable as some would have us believe"

That was my statement.. All the Documentary does is support what I have expressed that Iraq was never Stable and All the Obama haters on one hand love to claim Iraq was stable ... but because He pulled us out it it magical became unstable and created the ISIS problem... you cant have it both ways , the Documentary just shows what politicians wont say .. that stability was manufactured... The boots on the ground would not share the narrative that Iraq was stable

So we shouldn't have pulled out because it was still a smoldering fire or was the fire out .. The reality remains it the Iraqis country

below is from politifact on the topic

the sources of instability are fundamentally political."

Remember that the country was considered relatively stable in 2011; ISIS elements existed prior to that, but largely formed into the force it is today after American troops left -- and mostly in Syria at first.

" Then the pushed east from Syria into Anbar my statement "


Obama inherited a timeline to exit Iraq from George W. Bush and followed it

"They said that the Iraqi government was too weak, and unwilling to go against the wishes of those Iraqis who wanted the Americans to leave,"


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...0000-troops-i/
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:16 AM   #14
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That was my statement.. All the Documentary does is support what I have expressed that Iraq was never Stable and All the Obama haters on one hand love to claim Iraq was stable ... but because He pulled us out it it magical became unstable and created the ISIS problem... you cant have it both ways , the Documentary just shows what politicians wont say .. that stability was manufactured... The boots on the ground would not share the narrative that Iraq was stable

So we shouldn't have pulled out because it was still a smoldering fire or was the fire out .. The reality remains it the Iraqis country

below is from politifact on the topic

the sources of instability are fundamentally political."

Remember that the country was considered relatively stable in 2011; ISIS elements existed prior to that, but largely formed into the force it is today after American troops left -- and mostly in Syria at first.

" Then the pushed east from Syria into Anbar my statement "


Obama inherited a timeline to exit Iraq from George W. Bush and followed it

"They said that the Iraqi government was too weak, and unwilling to go against the wishes of those Iraqis who wanted the Americans to leave,"


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...0000-troops-i/
"I have expressed that Iraq was never Stable "

You're saying that because the stability was due to the presence of American troops, that's not real stability? Well, when Rudy Guliani became mayor of NYC, it was a sh*thole. So he put a cop on every corner with a stick and a gun, and guess what, crime came down. Crime didn't come down because the criminals stopped being jerks...it came down because the criminals were overwhelmed by the presence of force. Just because 'stability' is achieved by scaring the bad guys, that doesn't mean that the result isn't 'stability'. Violence was way down, elections were held. I agree with you, violence was down only because of the American presence. But violence was still down. Things were BETTER because we were there.

"that stability was manufactured"

Agreed. But violence was down as a result of the manufactured sense of security. If violence is down, and as a result, girls can go to school instead of being beaten with rocks, isn't that a good thing? Isn't it better than the alternative, which we have now?

"The reality remains it the Iraqis country"

Never heard anyone say otherwise.

"Obama inherited a timeline to exit Iraq from George W. Bush and followed it"

True. What is also true, and you carefully left out, is that Obama had the option of seeking a status of forces agreement to let us stay. Many people advised Obama to do that, because they feared that bad guys would resume being bad, as soon as we left. I don't think anyone denies that's exactly what happened.
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:55 AM   #15
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True. What is also true, and you carefully left out, is that Obama had the option of seeking a status of forces agreement to let us stay. Many people advised Obama to do that, because they feared that bad guys would resume being bad, as soon as we left. I don't think anyone denies that's exactly what happened.
Jim, I've asked you many times if you would have allowed US troops to be subject to Iraqi law. Would you?
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:35 AM   #16
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Jim, I've asked you many times if you would have allowed US troops to be subject to Iraqi law. Would you?
In all honesty, I don't ever remember you asking me that. It's an interesting question.

I expect them to be aware of local laws and customs, and to try not to offend anyone when possible. But subject to all local laws? I don't think so. It's an interesting question, though.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:40 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by wdmso
only the dead see the end of war HBO

A must watch

This Documentary Shows How Iraq really was and the development of current day Isis .. and debunks the narrative that Iraq was ever as stable as some would have us believe

Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso View Post
There was no political statement made at any point .. by anyone ...

not sure why you would think there was one ?


Originally Posted by scottw View Post

"and debunks the narrative that Iraq was ever as stable as some would have us believe"

QUOTE=wdmso;1097912]

That was my statement.. All the Documentary does is support what I have expressed

[/QUOTE]




so just to sum things up on this movie....it's a "must watch" because it supports your political take on the Iraq war and it's aftermath....the movie maker didn't create it as a political statement......the reviews I've cited didn't review it as a political statement but rather as a crappy movie full of gratuitous violence and obnoxious narration

seems consistent throughout the reviews... another example- "Having been on the ground for years reporting for Time magazine, Ware has amassed a huge body of video, but it’s clear from “Only the Dead” that he and his co-director Bill Guttentag had no idea how to shape it into a cohesive documentary. They have opted, unfortunately, to thread it together with some hammy, overwrought narration by Ware himself. Ware seems to be honestly trying to express the horror and confusion of Iraq at the peak of the fighting, but relying on turgid, fundamentally meaningless pronouncements about “the recesses in our souls we never knew we had” has the effect of trivializing the people Ware has filmed.

Struggling for a narrative throughline, Ware focuses on the rise of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the ruthless leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, while at the same time, using his own experience as a framing device. But the film offers too little in the way of context to work as a study of al-Zarqawi—the main takeaway seems to be that he was a really, really bad dude, which is not exactly revelatory—and Ware never gives enough of himself for the film to work as a personal story. In his narration, he comes off as grim and slightly pompous, constantly going on about the darkness he discovered in his own soul but never exposing that darkness in an honest, revealing way. The effect is worsened by a portentously pounding score."


(though if you read the TIME review, the author reads all sorts of support for his obvious political bias from it)

.....I'm not sure how many thumbs Siskel and Ebert would give it but it sounds like it would only and has only been enjoyed or celebrated by those looking to support a political view through a movie where "There was no political statement made at any point .. by anyone ..."....seems odd...no?

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Old 04-03-2016, 07:56 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by wdmso
only the dead see the end of war HBO

A must watch

This Documentary Shows How Iraq really was and the development of current day Isis .. and debunks the narrative that Iraq was ever as stable as some would have us believe

Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso View Post
There was no political statement made at any point .. by anyone ...

not sure why you would think there was one ?


Originally Posted by scottw View Post

"and debunks the narrative that Iraq was ever as stable as some would have us believe"

QUOTE=wdmso;1097912]

That was my statement.. All the Documentary does is support what I have expressed



so just to sum things up on this movie....it's a "must watch" because it supports your political take on the Iraq war and it's aftermath....the movie maker didn't create it as a political statement......the reviews I've cited didn't review it as a political statement but rather as a crappy movie full of gratuitous violence and obnoxious narration

seems consistent throughout the reviews... another example- "Having been on the ground for years reporting for Time magazine, Ware has amassed a huge body of video, but it’s clear from “Only the Dead” that he and his co-director Bill Guttentag had no idea how to shape it into a cohesive documentary. They have opted, unfortunately, to thread it together with some hammy, overwrought narration by Ware himself. Ware seems to be honestly trying to express the horror and confusion of Iraq at the peak of the fighting, but relying on turgid, fundamentally meaningless pronouncements about “the recesses in our souls we never knew we had” has the effect of trivializing the people Ware has filmed.

Struggling for a narrative throughline, Ware focuses on the rise of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the ruthless leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, while at the same time, using his own experience as a framing device. But the film offers too little in the way of context to work as a study of al-Zarqawi—the main takeaway seems to be that he was a really, really bad dude, which is not exactly revelatory—and Ware never gives enough of himself for the film to work as a personal story. In his narration, he comes off as grim and slightly pompous, constantly going on about the darkness he discovered in his own soul but never exposing that darkness in an honest, revealing way. The effect is worsened by a portentously pounding score."


(though if you read the TIME review, the author reads all sorts of support for his obvious political bias from it)

.....I'm not sure how many thumbs Siskel and Ebert would give it but it sounds like it would only and has only been enjoyed or celebrated by those looking to support a political view through a movie where "There was no political statement made at any point .. by anyone ..."....seems odd...no? [/QUOTE]

so just to sum things up on this movie....it's a "must watch" because it supports your political take on the Iraq war and it's aftermath.

No it supports what I experienced when I was there As an Infantry Platoon Sgt .. actually looking for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, IED makers the elections .. it has nothing to do with how I politically wish to view past events in iraq I dont blame Bush or Obama for the rise of ISIS because they were alway there in one form or another in the middle east

It seem your the one trying very very hard to be political
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:13 AM   #19
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It seem your the one trying very very hard to be political
like the movie...I've yet to make a political claim about it....beyond suggesting the reviews were evaluating it's cinematic quality rather than it's political message...or not

however....


Originally Posted by wdmso
only the dead see the end of war HBO

"All the Documentary does is support what I have expressed that Iraq was never Stable and All the Obama haters on one hand love to claim Iraq was stable ... but because He pulled us out it it magical became unstable and created the ISIS problem... you cant have it both ways , the Documentary just shows what politicians wont say .. that stability was manufactured... The boots on the ground would not share the narrative that Iraq was stable


the sources of instability are fundamentally political."
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:29 AM   #20
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this was my favorite from TIME where the author states there's not much political in the film...then immediately launches into a political diatribe about the film...hilarious...."



"There’s not much in the way of politics in the film, but Ware’s anguished attempts to reckon with his Iraq experiences contrast starkly with America’s failure to do the same. To this day, the size and scale of the catastrophe of that war, which took the lives of some 4,500 Americans and well over 100,000 Iraqis, still seems unappreciated here. And far too often, the direct line from Zarqawi and the Iraq war to Syria and ISIS’s caliphate is willfully ignored, as is the degree to which America’s failures in Iraq still undercut its reputation and strength abroad. What becomes clear as you watch the film, though, is how silly, craven, and narcissistic it is for would-be leaders to bray for new wars when they haven’t the slightest clue what war actually means for those who have to fight it, and those who have to endure it.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:06 AM   #21
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All the Documentary does is support what I have expressed that Iraq was never Stable
If the title of the documentary is taken from a quote by Santayana that "Only the dead have seen the end of war", and if the author of the documentary agreed with Santayana that "there is eternal war in nature", then ipso facto he would believe that Iraq was never stable. And he would also believe that no country was ever stable. The "eternal war" would negate any stability. And, I happen to agree with that. Not only is war eternal, so is change. One could equate change with war, change being a type of war. Witness history. In it, about the only thing that remains the same in politics throughout time is what we refer to as "human nature." We try to dissect and examine that nature, "finding" different factors which contribute to it, or we try to deconstruct it, but it consistently pops up in the same stereotypical ways in all facets of our lives throughout recorded time.

Countries are stable only in that they are all composed of people and their human nature. All else is subject to the war of change.

On the other hand there is this human concoction of and desire for stability. We seek to escape the constant roil of change and construct a more comforting "eternity" by which we know all there is to know and so find that place where our versions of "peace" will be everlasting.

But we have only been successful, on this earth, to varying degrees, to achieve temporary spans of what we consider stability.

So, when those who "hate Obama" as you put it say Iraq was stable, they are referring to a certain set of conditions which have been suppressed and to another set of conditions which have been created. How long those conditions remain "stable" will depend on other sets of conditions, including US military presence in this case. That stability does not mean that the underlying eternal war in nature won't also continue to exist. It doesn't mean that conflicting factions and faults of human nature will not continue to exist. It only means that the the "eternal war" is contained. And it will only be contained if the conditions which suppress it exist. Even an Obama "lover" like Joe Biden was seeing a condition of stability and a hope for democracy in Iraq.

But it would only be a question of time when the eternal war would bust out of its containment. The only question would be in what direction the change would lead. Our troops leaving too soon seems to have turned the direction in ways that made our sacrifices meaningless. Of course, eternal war never ends. So neither ISIS, nor the other Islamist tyrants are guaranteed any eternal victory.

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Old 04-03-2016, 10:30 AM   #22
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Isis is the MS13 of the middle east.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:58 AM   #23
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[QUOTE=ecduzitgood;1097969]Isis is the MS13 of the middle east.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device[/QUOTE
I agree 100%
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:08 PM   #24
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Of course, eternal war never ends.
nor eternal debate....fortunately we have movies, books and documentaries "eternally" popping up so that we can continue to argue fault and folly....I wonder when they'll get creative and produce flicks that project what would have come to pass and where we'd be if actions were not taken? That seems doable

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Old 04-04-2016, 11:35 AM   #25
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this was my favorite from TIME where the author states there's not much political in the film...then immediately launches into a political diatribe about the film...hilarious...."



"There’s not much in the way of politics in the film, but Ware’s anguished attempts to reckon with his Iraq experiences contrast starkly with America’s failure to do the same. To this day, the size and scale of the catastrophe of that war, which took the lives of some 4,500 Americans and well over 100,000 Iraqis, still seems unappreciated here. And far too often, the direct line from Zarqawi and the Iraq war to Syria and ISIS’s caliphate is willfully ignored, as is the degree to which America’s failures in Iraq still undercut its reputation and strength abroad. What becomes clear as you watch the film, though, is how silly, craven, and narcissistic it is for would-be leaders to bray for new wars when they haven’t the slightest clue what war actually means for those who have to fight it, and those who have to endure it.
You have a lot to say about a film you haven't watched? But insist what was said in an interview.. is whats in the film.. now that being objective

Seeing you enjoy reviews

Reality from an unbiased lens
9/10
Author: jmswarner from Canton, OH
22 March 2016
Fantastic story telling by Michael Ware in this gripping doc that portrays the harsh realities of war in a sense that is rarely attempted, let alone achieved. Kudos to the job of capturing the raw emotion from the soldiers' before, during and after conflicts where they are fighting for their lives. They are moments that 95% of the civilian population have never witnessed. The film could of been a tad shorter, as I felt there were a few unnecessary scenes. But overall, the pace and narration were spot on for the most part. This documentary is definitely not meant for the faint of heart, but, if you are interested in REALITY then this film is meant for you.
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:34 PM   #26
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[QUOTE=wdmso;1098072]You have a lot to say about a film you haven't watched? .. now that being objective ....



I cited Salon, Variety and Time reviews as reasons I wouldn't watch it..that seems to me to be extraordinarily objective...I don't honestly know what Rush Limbaugh thought of the film (Bryan could probably tell you) and I don't know who jmswarner from Canton, OH is, but I wouldn't watch based on that review either, sounds like he got off on the violence and reality a little

hey, isn't this the guy that came under a lot of criticism for narrating a movie that was sent to him where US Soldiers were stalked and shot by snipers and then ran it on CNN?
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