Is this the Place?

[Tagger]

no pics guys ??? .. George what is that Pichney plug you speak of ,,. I saw a real long thin danny type i wondered if it was pichney ??

[numbskull]

Some pictures. The yellow is the BM original.

[Tagger]

Looks pichney .. minus eye .. I like this long thin stuff .. I think fish are more keyed into it with present bait available ..

[Tagger]

George is the blue tape one the pichney ? ... love that Pred/Head bottle ..

[mfm22]

Is the lipless going to be tweaked ? I was hoping to get to some sort of lipless .
I'm going to try and conjure up an original musso

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Tagger

no pics guys ??? .. George what is that Pichney plug you speak of ,,. I saw a real long thin danny type i wondered if it was pichney ??

Pichney made an eely, and BM copied it (that is what you just posted).....those are common and the plugs you are thinking about. Turns out Musso made one, too. Mike asked me about it earlier this winter. I told him it didn't exist as far as I knew. Two days letter the link to the Musso articles appeared and lo and behold there it was!

Using the picture, and what I've learned about Musso from copying his plugs I was able to make a good guess how it was set up. When the weight came out right, and the plug floated as I thought it should I was pretty sure I had it. Yesterday when I swam it I became sure. There is a jointed version as well....got one in sealer to test soon.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by mfm22

Is the lipless going to be tweaked ? I was hoping to get to some sort of lipless .
I'm going to try and conjure up an original musso

The slope on the head of the lipless is too much. The weighting is a guess (essentially like his bottle but without the tail weight). I don't have an original. If you get a large one (the medium is different) let me know.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Tagger

George is the blue tape one the pichney ? ... love that Pred/Head bottle ..

The taped one is a small version of my "skinny donny" swimmer.
The bottle darter is too aggressive and needs different face angles.

[ProfessorM]

too bad about the SS. I am making them too and now i am not so thrilled to throw in the water. I will try this week as a few are still drying from sealer. I used red cedar and pine. I am falling behind as i only got a few plugs to primer. Going to seal a few darters today and pray for the correct end result weight. I weighed the one you gave and it came out 2.9 oz's with hooks. My fingers are crossed.

[WoodyCT]

Given that G is a genius I am assuming this pic is PRE test swim, but I do see some inconsistent variables that could have the effect of skewing results.

[WoodyCT]

Originally Posted by Tagger

Looks pichney .. minus eye .. I like this long thin stuff .. I think fish are more keyed into it with present bait available ..

I'm thinking that is a Salty kit plug because of the eye, paint, newness factor. BMs were all blind I believe.

DP Eelis for comparison. Non-sloped 5.75" and 7". Sloped 5.75" and 7".

[mfm22]

from what i have heard Don's favorite lipless was a smaller one

[Diggin Jiggin]

Good morning everyone. George reading your posts makes me realize just how much of the science behind this I don't know.

I wanted to try some of the big donny surface plugs. I didn't have pine so I made a prototype of white cedar and 1 of basswood that I hadn;t been using for anything. After tweaking the weighting I got the basswood one weighted to do what I want. I'm sure its not set up 'correctly' but it looks like it will work where I will fish it. I guess until I get it into some moving water I won't really know for sure. Its amazing how much current changes how a plug works.

My current project is a polaris. I made some bigger ones last year for the canal and when you really leaned into a cast they'd get that slight wobble that costs you 20 yards.. I gotta get that figured out.

I had 2 smaller 5 1/2 inch ones that I used a bunch last fall that cast great. At the end of the year I brought them into the shop so I could copy them this winter. When I went to look at them yesterday the epoxy had lifted off the paint. Thats the only 2 plugs it happened to, so frustrating..

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by WoodyCT

Given that G is a genius I am assuming this pic is PRE test swim, but I do see some inconsistent variables that could have the effect of skewing results.

If I was a genius I wouldn't have to learn all this stuff the hard way. I tweak the lips and wires of every swimmer to try and get it to do what I want (and often adjust more while fishing for various conditions). When I can't I know I've got a problem.

That big white one with the red hooks was the problem child. It has a tail weight to compensate for the absence of a tail hook and this set up worked great in the smaller white proto at the top. The BM is a heavier plug and floats very low in the nose without the tail hook (and fished very well that way). But even when I added weight and changed lips (I cut several different shapes) and bent wires up and down that white plug wasn't right at the speed I retrieve them. I think it is the planing action of the body that is wrong.....something I'd never thought about in swimmers previously (in needles and spooks it matters) and which is why I posted about it. I suspect if I loose the tail weight and upsize the front hook I can make it work. It will cast worse, however. On the next run I'll put some concavity into the front of the body and try again.

[Tagger]

Help I'm not seeing variables ... p.s. thanks for DP eely pics ..

[Tagger]

That big DP danny .. When I made that I had to bend the eye down like a bastadge to get it to swim decent. The orig I copied from (wich had been fished) the eye was bent the same way ..

[ProfessorM]

G. I turned the tail on my SS to a smaller dia. to hopefully allow for the no tail hook. We'll see.
As far as my Musso daters go I intend to soak them today for half hour periods and weigh them, if too light back in they go till I get the weight I want, that is with the spar sealer. I intend to do a couple in epoxy heat seal too just to fine out what happens.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Diggin Jiggin

When I went to look at them yesterday the epoxy had lifted off the paint. Thats the only 2 plugs it happened to, so frustrating..

Probably you know this already, but for those that don't you can salvage them by warming them with a heat gun. The epoxy will soften and come right off. Works for rod guides and reel seats, too.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by Diggin Jiggin

At the end of the year I brought them into the shop so I could copy them this winter. When I went to look at them yesterday the epoxy had lifted off the paint. Thats the only 2 plugs it happened to, so frustrating..

I have a Nike I made .. looks like its in a plastic bag ... mirror coat ?

[WoodyCT]

Originally Posted by Tagger

Help I'm not seeing variables ... p.s. thanks for DP eely pics ..

I was comparing corresponding features of the BM and the Problem Child that could affect the PC's performance.

Line tie angle. Tail flag vs. no tail hook. Etc...

G- Did you check the amount of lip protrusion below the chin on the BM and PC?

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by WoodyCT

G- Did you check the amount of lip protrusion below the chin on the BM and PC?

Yup, and I swam it with several different lips, tail flag, no tail flag, loop up, loop down, full tail weight, 1/2 tail weight, 6x and 4x hooks, and 8 grams of extra belly weight.

The BM is a heavier plug it turns out, by about 1/2 an oz (when compared to the original Pichney I based mine on and about 3/8-1/4 oz when compared to the other large BM ss I own). The forward 1/2 of the BM has a slight concavity to it, and the weight seems marginally further forward. I think this lets the head of the plug come down more easily and start working sooner.

My plug (and the original Pichney) sits level and a bit higher. This means the slope of the belly to nose planes the plug up, before the lip gets enough grab to pull it down. Hence the plug "plows" before it swims, particularly as the line angle gets steeper. A deeper lip or a bent up line tie (which is why it is up in the picture) helps some, but not enough. I plan to retry with a higher wire slot lip, a chin weight, and/or a much bigger than original belly weight. I also need to swim the original and see if it shared the problem (and xray the BM to see why it is so much heavier than the other BM's I've xrayed).

This is an issue most guys who fish spinning tackle would never notice. The plug swims fine at medium speeds. But I want stuff that swims fine at lower speeds since I have more confidence fishing that way in the dark. It is very hard to retrieve that slow with a big spinner.

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by numbskull

The Musso lipless swimmer and Musso bottledarter were unimpressive (probably just not right since I don't have originals)

I have worked off and on with a Musso Lipless swimmer for years unable to get things just right. I have an original that you can borrow. If you are interested shoot me a PM. I also have a bottle darter from Musso but Digger has borrowed that and i have not seen it in a while.

Your work is very inspiring.

[eastendlu]

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

I have worked off and on with a Musso Lipless swimmer for years unable to get things just right. I have an original that you can borrow. If you are interested shoot me a PM. I also have a bottle darter from Musso but Digger has borrowed that and i have not seen it in a while.

Your work is very inspiring.

I was wondering when you were going to chime in.

[Pete F.]

I made one lipless last winter and fish liked it. I just made some more but have yet to test them, need to get a fishing license and find some open water and time. Mine do not have a concave front.

[Jigman]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Some pictures. ...

Interesting lipless. What design is that based on? I have a Lex version, feels real light and no lead in it as far as I can tell. Messed with them on and off, but have yet to get something that I am satisfied with as far as swimming action. Tried some with a tail weight, but they don't seem to swim well. Some belly weight they do ok. The face of the Lex is cupped a little and the angle is different than the one you show. I still have some work to do to get one right.

Jigman

[eastendlu]

Originally Posted by Jigman

Interesting lipless. What design is that based on? I have a Lex version, feels real light and no lead in it as far as I can tell. Messed with them on and off, but have yet to get something that I am satisfied with as far as swimming action. Tried some with a tail weight, but they don't seem to swim well. Some belly weight they do ok. The face of the Lex is cupped a little and the angle is different than the one you show. I still have some work to do to get one right.

Jigman

Yes Lex made a version of the lipless swimmer my memory sucks but it was different than the Musso.Next time i talk to Scotty and his friend i will have to ask again i remember talking about it for a while
about it at Diggers house last year.

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by eastendlu

I was wondering when you were going to chime in.

I just sit around and look as i can't contribute much with my skills and everyone else pretty much has things down pat here. I learn as much as i can and if i can contribute i will, but the members here are very very good and know there stuff.

The lipless swimmer at Digger's house and the musso bottle darter were both mine that were floating around. Digger still has them don't know where he is with them.

If there is one thing i have tried like hell to make and that has escaped me is the lipless swimmer, at this point i am afraid to even get it right because i don't know what i would do.

I think you know where i want to throw that lipless swimmer Stay well.

[eastendlu]

Billy if when you get it back from Digger send it over so i can take a crack at it and yes i know where you want to throw it .

[wrikerjr]

Lou,

If you are going to the NY Coalition show stop by i will have a booth. If not i will give the plug to Larry or Rob and they can give it to you. I think i have 3 left, about 8 years ago i had 15 that i got from a lucky garage sale find. I miss living in Long Island

Kindest,
Billy

[numbskull]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Got primed and unprimed bodies of all sorts all over the place.
Started painting but nothing comes out right.
With wood and steel I can get what I want. With air and paint everything is a struggle. And then there is still the epoxy to go, .