Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

     

Left Nav S-B Home Register FAQ Members List S-B on Facebook Arcade WEAX Tides Buoys Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Right Nav

Left Container Right Container
 

Go Back   Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating » Striper Chat - Discuss stuff other than fishing ~ The Scuppers and Political talk » Political Threads

Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-11-2018, 11:40 AM   #31
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
How many of these big ones were started by illegal immigrants? Selective, legal immigration, as needed, as they have in Canada and the rest of the world is what Jim would probably be in favor of.
Sure. And I wouldn't only support letting in people who can significantly help the economy.. I'm all for letting in a certain number of people who will struggle, but who want a shot at a better life. But there are limits to how many of those we can let in, and the reason we need limits, is that it's a real burden on the rest of us.

I'm all for letting in a reasonable number of poor and downtrodden. That's a big part of what makes us who we are.

The family who runs the convenience store near my house came from Liberia, maybe one of the 5 worst countries in the history of the planet, with nothing. They worked 80 hours a week in that store, then they qualified for a federal loan to buy it, at which point they worked 90 hours a week in the store. They have 2 kids who went to college for free, one I studying engineering, the other studying medicine. That's the idea, right there, that's the dream.

It's worth noting that the father, who I've gotten to know over the years, tells me that when he watches MSNBC and CNN, he cannot believe that they are talking about the same country that gave his family this chance. He doesn't understand how people can say that only the rich get ahead, and that only white people get ahead.

He also says, and BOY is this a deep statement, that his black kids were better off being born in Africa and then coming here, than they'd be if they were born here but poor. Because if they were born here, there's a great chance they'd be sucked into the victim mentality. All they see, literally all they see, is opportunity. I love going in there every Sunday, filling up my truck, and buying the paper and a snack and asking him about his week. HE should have a show on MSNBC, not Al Sharpton.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 12:01 PM   #32
Pete F.
Master tråd morder
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
so when millions of penniless, unskilled, uneducated immigrants come here, and many aren’t paying income taxes, yet we have to help them with shelter, food, medical care, we have to provide police and fire protection, and we have to educate their children, you aren’t convinced that’s not a drain on our finances? You can’t be convinced of what you refuse to believe, I guess.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
How many of these big ones were started by illegal immigrants? Selective, legal immigration, as needed, as they have in Canada and the rest of the world is what Jim would probably be in favor of.
Get Trump to consider one, he said in June he would not sign a bipartisan bill. Do I need to link the tweet for you? Both parties were working to come up with a bill they could pass.

Pete
In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Pete F. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 12:29 PM   #33
Pete F.
Master tråd morder
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Again, I cannot imagine what point you are trying to make, since no sane person claims that immigrants sit around and do nothing. Of course, many contribute something. Some contribute a ton. The question is, as a group, do they pay their own way? Their answer, of course, is no. Because for every Elan Musk, there are multiple families on welfare, and on Medicaid, with kids in public school, who cost a fortune.
How much of your public school tuition bill do you fund? In CT, I think it's 16K a year. How many kids do you have?

I'm not arguing against immigration, I'm happy to pay taxes to help out law abiding immigrants. The point I am making, which you can't seem to grasp, is that immigration as a whole I snot a source of surplus for us, it's a big financial strain.

The links you posted above talked about the benefits of immigration., They didn't mention the costs - welfare, Medicaid, public housing, and especially, educating their kids. All of that is very expensive.

Nothing you have said on this issue, nothing, even comes close to responding to what I'm saying. I concede there are immigrants who are a bargain for us. But as a group? Very expensive.
Are you combining legal and illegal immigration?
The Wharton model states pretty clearly what the costs and benefits are, all you have to do is read it.
I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect, if you are talking about legal immigrants.
Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund.

If you want to cite facts with sources that's fine but to just say You know is a waste of time.

Pete
In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Pete F. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 12:53 PM   #34
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
Are you combining legal and illegal immigration?
The Wharton model states pretty clearly what the costs and benefits are, all you have to do is read it.
I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect, if you are talking about legal immigrants.
Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund.

If you want to cite facts with sources that's fine but to just say You know is a waste of time.
I'm in favor or legal immigration. I think that penniless, unskilled immigrants, whether they come legally or illegally, are a huge drain.

"How much of your public school tuition bill do you fund? In CT, I think it's 16K a year. How many kids do you have?"

I have 3 kids in public school, costs my town about 39k a year. I pay about 10k a year to my town in property taxes on my house, cars, and camper. So right now, I'm a drain. But we lived here, paying taxes, for many years before we had kids, and will be here hopefully for many years after, so in the end, I'll pay my own way. But illegals, and many legal immigrants who don't pay as much as me in taxes, will never cover their own bill. That's what the math is. As I've said, I'm happy to pay my share to help those who can't afford to pay their own share. But it's utter nonsense to claim that most immigrants, especially illegals, will pay their own way.

"Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund."

True. But having more illegal hispanic immigrants, who pay less taxes and have more children, makes it a bigger drain, not less of a drain.

"I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect"

So FL and CA are seeing a windfall, not a drain on their economy, from illegal immigration. Gotcha.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 01:06 PM   #35
Pete F.
Master tråd morder
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
I'm in favor or legal immigration. I think that penniless, unskilled immigrants, whether they come legally or illegally, are a huge drain.

"How much of your public school tuition bill do you fund? In CT, I think it's 16K a year. How many kids do you have?"

I have 3 kids in public school, costs my town about 39k a year. I pay about 10k a year to my town in property taxes on my house, cars, and camper. So right now, I'm a drain. But we lived here, paying taxes, for many years before we had kids, and will be here hopefully for many years after, so in the end, I'll pay my own way. But illegals, and many legal immigrants who don't pay as much as me in taxes, will never cover their own bill. That's what the math is. As I've said, I'm happy to pay my share to help those who can't afford to pay their own share. But it's utter nonsense to claim that most immigrants, especially illegals, will pay their own way.

"Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund."

True. But having more illegal hispanic immigrants, who pay less taxes and have more children, makes it a bigger drain, not less of a drain.

"I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect"

So FL and CA are seeing a windfall, not a drain on their economy, from illegal immigration. Gotcha.
I don't see CA complaining, do you?
Florida is going to need all the labor it can get to rebuild, they might take more cheap labor
Look at illegal immigration prior to 9/11 and after, our enforcement changed patterns radically and basically made it so they had to stay because of the cost of sneaking in as opposed to walking across, back for a while and across again. I had Canadian drywall guys doing it for years, no issues.

Pete
In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Pete F. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 02:25 PM   #36
Sea Dangles
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Sea Dangles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,248
I consider Pete to be well read. I can’t imagine how he still has trouble with immigrants, how has he not figured out that they are not the issue? But when you compare these great folks with illegal immigrants the conversations turn sour. 3
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Sea Dangles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 03:56 PM   #37
Pete F.
Master tråd morder
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles View Post
I consider Pete to be well read. I can’t imagine how he still has trouble with immigrants, how has he not figured out that they are not the issue? But when you compare these great folks with illegal immigrants the conversations turn sour. 3
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
If only it was simple
Currently Mexicans are emigrating back more than to here, perhaps NAFTA2.0 will raise wages in Mexico and reduce it further
Central America has some horrible intertwined social and governmental issues
They will take a long time to solve
People will always want to escape scary situations where their lives are threatened
Reducing or eliminating aid as threatened will significantly impact programs that are in place to reduce refugee migration
Building a wall that we pay for will not inspect the 14000 trucks that come to the USA each day or do anything about the new routes that will appear as long as there’s demand like boats or planes
It also won’t stop Americans from hiring cheap labor (just like guns we already have laws for that, read about Don the Con and the polish laborers)
If there is no opportunity far fewer will come
The most aggressive people will migrate they always have, you can see examples of that here in the states
Plenty of anecdotal examples of southern New England factories hiring Vermonters because they were hard workers
The lazy people in many cases stayed on the farm
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pete
In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Pete F. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 04:51 PM   #38
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
If only it was simple
Currently Mexicans are emigrating back more than to here, perhaps NAFTA2.0 will raise wages in Mexico and reduce it further
Central America has some horrible intertwined social and governmental issues
They will take a long time to solve
People will always want to escape scary situations where their lives are threatened
Reducing or eliminating aid as threatened will significantly impact programs that are in place to reduce refugee migration
Building a wall that we pay for will not inspect the 14000 trucks that come to the USA each day or do anything about the new routes that will appear as long as there’s demand like boats or planes
It also won’t stop Americans from hiring cheap labor (just like guns we already have laws for that, read about Don the Con and the polish laborers)
If there is no opportunity far fewer will come
The most aggressive people will migrate they always have, you can see examples of that here in the states
Plenty of anecdotal examples of southern New England factories hiring Vermonters because they were hard workers
The lazy people in many cases stayed on the farm
Geez, does the rest of the world find it as difficult as you seem to make it to restrict immigration?
detbuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 05:05 PM   #39
Sea Dangles
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Sea Dangles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
If only it was simple
Currently Mexicans are emigrating back more than to here, perhaps NAFTA2.0 will raise wages in Mexico and reduce it further
Central America has some horrible intertwined social and governmental issues
They will take a long time to solve
People will always want to escape scary situations where their lives are threatened
Reducing or eliminating aid as threatened will significantly impact programs that are in place to reduce refugee migration
Building a wall that we pay for will not inspect the 14000 trucks that come to the USA each day or do anything about the new routes that will appear as long as there’s demand like boats or planes
It also won’t stop Americans from hiring cheap labor (just like guns we already have laws for that, read about Don the Con and the polish laborers)
If there is no opportunity far fewer will come
The most aggressive people will migrate they always have, you can see examples of that here in the states
Plenty of anecdotal examples of southern New England factories hiring Vermonters because they were hard workers
The lazy people in many cases stayed on the farm
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Pete, all that aside. Do you understand some are legal and others are not?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
Sea Dangles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 05:14 PM   #40
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
If only it was simple

Uh, oh, be careful now. Some people don't like words being put in their mouth. Who said it was simple?

Currently Mexicans are emigrating back more than to here, perhaps NAFTA2.0 will raise wages in Mexico and reduce it further

That's probably one of the reasons for it. it's complex, not simple.

Central America has some horrible intertwined social and governmental issues
They will take a long time to solve People will always want to escape

What if there is no escape?

scary situations where their lives are threatened

what do folks do if there is no escape and their lives are threatened?

Reducing or eliminating aid as threatened will significantly impact programs that are in place to reduce refugee migration

What if there is no escape?

Building a wall that we pay for will not inspect the 14000 trucks that come to the USA each day

Strange, we know about 14000 trucks a day . . . and we can't stop them, or a whole lot of them, and discourage more by confiscation of trucks, fines, and jailtime.

or do anything about the new routes that will appear as long as there’s demand like boats or planes

Wow . . . we can't do anything about boats and planes. How the hell did we win wars?

It also won’t stop Americans from hiring cheap labor (just like guns we already have laws for that, read about Don the Con and the polish laborers)

I wonder, if unemployed Americans were willing to hire out as "cheap labor," would Americans still hire illegals?

If there is no opportunity far fewer will come
The most aggressive people will migrate they always have, you can see examples of that here in the states
Plenty of anecdotal examples of southern New England factories hiring Vermonters because they were hard workers
The lazy people in many cases stayed on the farm
If we can't stop every single one, it's all a failure.
detbuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 05:16 PM   #41
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles View Post
Pete, all that aside. Do you understand some are legal and others are not?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
You don't understand. Illegals make this country great.
detbuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 08:18 PM   #42
Pete F.
Master tråd morder
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 3,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles View Post
Pete, all that aside. Do you understand some are legal and others are not?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Really?
Did I say that they didn’t exist?
Would it be acceptable to you to have to carry a identity card and show it on demand?
We all lost a tremendous amount of freedom with the Patriot Act
What more do you want to give up?
Get chipped at birth perhaps?
Then ICE could just collect the unchipped illegals.
We have the technology to control people completely more like a science fiction movie than any you have seen
Be careful what you wish for
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pete
In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Pete F. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 09:58 PM   #43
Sea Dangles
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Sea Dangles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,248
I wish for all legal citizens to be happy. Rant all you want but that is my point. I hope you take time to understand what I am saying.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Sea Dangles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 10:40 PM   #44
Ian
Idiot
iTrader: (0)
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 2,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
If we can't stop every single one, it's all a failure.
A great mind once said, “Don’t let good be the enemy of great.”
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The artist formerly known as Scratch59.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 11:23 PM   #45
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
A great mind once said, “Don’t let good be the enemy of great.”
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Excellent advice. It is good to prevent as many illegals as possible rather than just giving up because you can't prevent them all.

Last edited by detbuch; 10-11-2018 at 11:28 PM..
detbuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 06:56 AM   #46
Ian
Idiot
iTrader: (0)
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 2,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
Excellent advice. It is good to prevent as many illegals as possible rather than just giving up because you can't prevent them all.
I think expanding the idea of prevention to include reevaluating the way we consider paths to legal citizenship should be a part of this solution.

While I’m not suggesting anything with regards to people that are currently here illegally, what I am saying is that I believe we have a serious issue with our immigration system when there are legal immigration paths where large well to do companies can internationally recruit people and pay them through the system but small businesses who can’t afford the same are forced to hire “illegal” help where it’s readily available because those people aren’t afforded the same experience with our system.

I’m not sure you agree with me here, but I consider this part of preventing illegal immigrants.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The artist formerly known as Scratch59.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 12:16 PM   #47
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
I think expanding the idea of prevention to include reevaluating the way we consider paths to legal citizenship should be a part of this solution.

While I’m not suggesting anything with regards to people that are currently here illegally, what I am saying is that I believe we have a serious issue with our immigration system when there are legal immigration paths where large well to do companies can internationally recruit people and pay them through the system but small businesses who can’t afford the same are forced to hire “illegal” help where it’s readily available because those people aren’t afforded the same experience with our system.

I’m not sure you agree with me here, but I consider this part of preventing illegal immigrants.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
If there is a way to change the path to legalization which would help to prevent illegal immigration, it certainly sounds like a good idea. My first cautionary reaction is, wait, can we trust bureaucrats to be apolitical in terms of what outcomes they wish to achieve with their crafting of regulations? But, then, that is always a problem with regulatory agencies.

If I understand you correctly, it seems that you are concerned with fairness, and if that can be solved, it will help to lessen illegal immigration. Are you suggesting that small companies should have the same legal ability to import aliens as large companies do? That Joe's hardware should be able to choose Sr. Lopez from Mexico to come work at his store and become a citizen? Or that neither large nor small companies should have a say on who can come here to work and eventually become a citizen?

I suppose that the first of the two options would cut down on the number of those classified as "illegal" since, by law, those chosen by all companies, including small ones, would then be considered legal. So the total number of immigrants who would have previously been considered illegal would then be pared down to those who were not sponsored by a company to come here to work. That's sort of a legal bookkeeping trick of simply moving something from one side of the ledger to the other. And it doesn't fundamentally solve the problem of why other countries can produce workers but the U.S. can't.

If it were purely a matter of fairness, I would prefer the second option. That big companies are reduced to the present status of small companies in their ability to import workers. I would make an exception, as a matter of national interest, that singular genius types, Einstein, bohr, etc., be given a special status.

But, on a more fundamental basis, I prefer the second option because it forces us to deal with the root problem of our current American culture which does not produce the needed workers. Curing that basic problem would better reduce illegal immigration than the first option as well as eliminating the current unfair system.

Last edited by detbuch; 10-12-2018 at 12:37 PM..
detbuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Please use all necessary and proper safety precautions. STAY SAFE Striper Talk Forums
Copyright 1998-20012 Striped-Bass.com