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Old 10-10-2018, 11:19 AM   #1
Pete F.
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The Corrosion of Conservatism

In his new book, The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right, Max Boot goes further than the handful of other prominent Republicans who have stood against Donald Trump and reconsiders the conservative movement writ large. He sat down to discuss his epiphany with Washington bureau chief David Corn for the Mother Jones Podcast. This is an edited and condensed transcript of that conversation.

David Corn: You were a golden boy of conservative punditry. You joined the Wall Street Journal editorial page in 1994 at 24. You were the op-ed editor four years later. You became a contributing editor to the Weekly Standard and a blogger for Commentary. You were in neocon heaven—a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, an adviser to John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012. You were one of the major voices in favor of the Iraq War. And in your forthcoming book, you write with great introspection and humility, “I can finally acknowledge the obvious: It was all a big mistake. Saddam Hussein was heinous, but Iraq was better off under his tyrannical rule than the chaos that followed. I regret advocating the invasion and feel guilty about all the lives lost.” I mean, Max, this is almost, maybe it is, an apology. What brought you to that point?

Max Boot: Well, it’s basically that I could not deny reality indefinitely. Anybody looking around Iraq today can see it is not the democratic paradise that George Bush and Dick Cheney and others promised in 2003. I’m certainly not the only one who has confessed their errors here. John McCain did before his death. But many right-wingers have stuck to their guns rather stubbornly. And I think the only way you’re going to improve US foreign policy and set a sound course for the future is if you’re willing to look back at what went wrong before. One of the lessons I draw from the Iraq War is be pretty darn careful about launching preventative conflicts. And that’s not a lesson that everybody has learned. For example, John Bolton, before he became national security adviser, was arguing in favor of preventative military action against both Iran and North Korea, which I think is crazy. I certainly got a big one wrong in the case of Iraq.

“A general danger of punditry is that there’s very little incentive to change your position or admit error.”
DC: Well, let me pick at the scab a little. What do you think the original sin was?

MB: There were two assumptions. One was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, and I think that was an honest error, although I do think policy#^&makers in the Bush administration were not willing enough to engage with contrary points of view. But from that honest mistake, very dubious conclusions were drawn. I was certainly one of those who imagined because Saddam was such an evil dictator that we could vastly improve life for people in Iraq and throughout the Middle East by toppling him. In hindsight, containment was a much better option. Underlying my assertion was a naive and hubristic faith in American power. I fled the Soviet Union as a child. And some of that naive faith was based on the experience of Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union, where we saw these democracies develop. Of course, if we had waited a little bit longer, we would have seen how fragile even those democracies are today in places like Hungary and Poland. But in 2003, a lot of people, including me, had this naive faith that democracy was the wave of the future, and that the United States was at the vanguard, and that we could do good for humanity, and good for America’s strategic interests, by getting rid of Saddam Hussein. And obviously those assumptions have not been borne out.

DC: Why do you think it’s so hard for people now to concede they got it wrong?

MB: Well, a general danger of punditry is that there’s very little incentive to change your position or admit error. If you reverse your position, the people who backed you before will be unhappy, but a lot of the people who now agree with you will still pillory you. I’ve gotten that on Twitter; I’m called a war criminal and told that I’m being opportunistic in renouncing the Iraq War. And so these people on the left are basically saying, “Too late. You can’t renounce your beliefs.” There’s very little incentive, from a political economy standpoint, for people to reverse field. And a lot of disincentives. You see that now with Trump, who claimed the handling of Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico, where 3,000 Americans died, was a tremendous success. And he’s rewarded for that by his followers. I mean, the Trump theory is that if you admit error then you’re showing weakness and you’re going to get destroyed politically. You can argue that could be correct, as a matter of politics. Obviously, as a matter of intellectual honesty and accuracy, it’s an appalling standard by which to hold yourself.
DC: You’ve been moved to reconsider much more than just Iraq. You wrote, “I am now convinced that coded racial appeals—those dog whistles—had at least as much, if not more, to do with the electoral success of the modern Repub#^&lican Party than all of the domestic and foreign policy proposals crafted by well-#^&intentioned analysts like me. This is what liberals have been saying for decades while accusing the Republican Party of racism. I never believed them. Now I do.” When did Boot become woke?

“I think a lot of my fellow conservatives are in denial about the state of modern America.”
MB: I’m ashamed to admit that it took the emergence of Donald Trump. I was in my conservative bunker, and I thought this was a gross libel against the Republican Party to claim that we were catering to racism, or that it was a libel on America to claim that America was a pervasively racist society. And then Trump came along and I realized, “Wait a second. There is a much larger constituency for racism and xenophobia than I had realized.” And it made me think, “Oh, my goodness. This is why a lot of people were voting Republican.” It wasn’t because they loved supply-side economics. It wasn’t because they supported NATO. It was because they were looking for a candidate who would champion the interests of white people. And Donald Trump did that more unabashedly and more unapologetically than previous Republican candidates had done. That was a wake-up call. And then of course I saw other examples of racism coming to the fore in ways that were undeniable, like all these videotapes of police officers killing and abusing African Americans. The evidence is right there, on the tape. You can’t deny it. African Americans have been saying for years that they have been the victims of racist police, but I tended to believe the police officers. Same with the #MeToo movement, which made me realize, “Hey, feminists have a point when they talk about the abuses of patriarchal society and the suffering that women endure in America.” To be clear, I’m not buying into some kind of anti-American worldview. We have made real progress, but I think we have a long way to go. I think a lot of my fellow conservatives are in denial about the state of modern America.

DC: To me, this part of your book is fascinating. Because the Iraq War, it’s a policy mistake. But race is really one of the fundamental debates and divides we have. And it’s been an article of faith, on the conservative side, that they have been libeled on this front. We see a hue and cry anytime Republicans are confronted with this issue. Why this inability to see at least a portion of this?

MB: I can talk about my own blindness. I thought, “I’m not racist. And I’m a Republican. So it seems like a gross libel to accuse Republicans and conservatives of being racist if I personally am not racist.” And what I’ve realized is there are a lot of racists that the Republican Party is appealing to. There’s also been a disconnect between what Republicans do in office and what they do on the campaign trail. Because going back to 1964, when the parties basically switched positions on civil rights, Republicans have been appealing for white votes with coded racial appeals. Whether it was Nixon’s Southern strategy, or in 1980 Ronald Reagan kicking off his general election campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, or the Willie Horton ad from George H.W. Bush. You can point to all these examples. But when you look at the actual Republican presidents and leaders, I think they were actually decent people who weren’t delivering on this white-power agenda that a lot of their supporters might have been led to think they would deliver on. And so you had a disconnect between the Republican Party on the campaign trail and the Republican Party in power. Trump exploited that, because he has no compunctions about doing in office the kind of things that previous Republican standard-bearers only hinted at on the campaign trail. And he is tapping into frustration in ranks with what they see as being RINOs, as Republicans in Name Only. What I think they mean by that is candidates who did not deliver on the kind of racist, xenophobic, white-power agenda that a lot of Republicans would actually like to see. Before Donald Trump, the Republican Party was a majority conservative party with a white nationalist fringe. Now it’s a white nationalist party with a conservative fringe.

“What we’ve seen consistently since Trump came into office is there is no separation: The Republican Party is now the Trump party.”
DC: You saw people lining up behind Trump when he got the nomination. It seems to have prompted a crisis of faith within you.

MB: Yes, it has. I wrote in 2016 that Donald Trump was a character test. And sadly, almost the entire Republican Party has failed. I am appalled to see people who I think are essentially decent, like Paul Ryan or George W. Bush, still campaigning for Republican candidates. They somehow disassociate ordinary Republicans from Donald Trump. But what we’ve seen consistently since Trump came into office is there is no separation. The Republican Party is now the Trump party. As John Boehner said, the real Republican Party is off taking a nap somewhere. This is the Trump party. They’ve basically made a Faustian bargain, where they say, “Give us judges and tax cuts and we’ll look the other way, at your racism, your xenophobia, your insanity, your attacks on our allies.” They’ve basically sold out for the judges and for the tax cuts. And for me it’s an appalling bargain.

DC: Is there any difference now between conservatism and Trumpism?

MB: There is a small group of “Never Trump” conservatives. But it is a small group, and I’ve actually been surprised that there are not more of us. There’s enough of us for a dinner party, not a political party. I wish there were more. Within the grassroots, a lot of people really love the Trump message, the racism, the xenophobia, the nonstop insults against liberals. That’s actually what they like most about him. And in Washington, there are a lot of cynical people who say, “Well, Trump has the support of 84 percent of Republicans, so we can’t get on his bad side.” These people that I used to admire have sold out their principles. Nobody’s more shocked and surprised than I am. This is a movement to which I dedicated my whole life. And now I realize, what the hell was that about? Who were these people? They’re not who I thought they were.

DC: But what does it mean for you, personally, to be untethered in this way?

MB: It makes me realize how much of American politics is tribal and how little of it has to do with principles or ideas. The reason why so many people are Republicans is because they hate Democrats; the actual substance of what Republicans stand for almost doesn’t matter. And that’s been a shocking realization. I re#^&registered as an independent the day after the election and no longer think of myself as a member of that community. On a personal level, it’s been a difficult experience because much of my identity was tied up in the conservative movement. And it’s hard for me to talk to a lot of my friends—the gap between us is so wide. But I’ve also realized the extent to which I had tailored my public statements to what the movement would find acceptable. I didn’t say anything I didn’t believe in, but there was a lot of stuff that I just didn’t comment on. I think it’s crazy that Republicans are opposed to all gun control when we have such a rampant problem with gun violence. But I just never tackled it. Or when Republicans deny climate change, which is a scientific fact, I didn’t deal with it. I just stayed in my lane, foreign policy and national security policy, and ignored the craziness all around me. I went with the tribe. I took the path of least resistance, and now it’s making me realize, no, I’ve got to think for myself, and that’s something very few people do, because being part of one of these political tribes, as much as anything, is a substitute for thought. So it’s been both chastening and liberating to escape from that stifling orthodoxy.

DC: In the book, you write, “Only if the GOP as currently constituted is burned to the ground will there be any chance to build a reasonable center-right political party out of the ashes.” So your position now, Max, is burn, baby, burn. It sounds like the old Marxists.

I’ve always believed in America and the goodness and greatness of America—that’s really been my greatest faith, and that faith has been battered.
MB: I respect some of my friends trying to work on reforming the Republican Party, but at least for the time being, I think it’s a lost cause. So my hope is that the Republican Party will suffer massive and repeated drubbings at the ballot box. That’s why I urge everybody to vote straight-ticket Democratic even though I have a lot of disagreements with Democrats. I’m not a Democrat; I’m an independent. But for the health of our republic, I think we need to destroy the Republican Party. We need congressional oversight of Donald Trump, which you’re never going to get out of Republicans. I think you need to punish the Republicans for taking these appalling positions, abusing minorities, championing white nationalism, isolationism, protectionism. The only way to wean them from that is to punish them electorally.

DC: As a man without party, a man without ideology, with maybe fewer friends than you used to have, are you feeling hopeful or more in a despairing sort of mindset?

MB: I am a lot less optimistic or, if you like, Pollyannaish about the future of America than I used to be. I was this immigrant kid who came here in 1976 from the Soviet Union, and I’ve always believed in America and the goodness and greatness of America, and that’s really been my greatest faith. And that faith has been battered. This is a country that could elect Donald Trump. People like me kind of arrogantly assumed it can’t happen here, that there’s something in the water in America that renders us immune from this kind of threat to our democracy. And lo and behold, we’re not immune. We could easily go the way of countries that are backsliding from their democracy. I don’t think that’s inevitable, and I think the checks and balances in our system are stronger than in other countries. I’ve been cheered to see the way the press has taken on Trump. I’ve been cheered to see what the Democrats have done even as a minority in Congress, and the courts, and also the federal bureaucracy—even some of Trump’s own appointees. If Trump could get away with it, I’m sure he would love to emulate Putin and impose a dictatorship of his own. But, mercifully, we’ve had over 200 years of democratic tradition, and we do have pretty strong institutions. But we’re not as different from the rest of the world as I had previously thought, and so I’m no longer as optimistic about America. And I am pretty pessimistic about the survival of the American-led world order that we created in 1945. I mean, if you’re an American ally, why would you ever trust America again?

DC: I suppose all our moods will be severely impacted by what happens on Election Day.

MB: Absolutely. If Republicans hold on to the House and Senate, Donald Trump will see that as a green light to do the worst. Within a couple of days, he’s going to fire Sessions, Rosenstein, Mueller. He’s going to pardon Manafort and everybody else. It’s going to be a catastrophe without precedent for American democracy. He may still do that even if Democrats win, but if Democrats can take control of at least one house, there’s going to be some pushback, there’s going to be some subpoenas, there’s going to be some investigation, and basically the American people will be sending a cry and saying, “No, we will not put up with this. We will not allow you to undermine and even destroy our democracy. We’re going to stand up for the principles of 1776.” Every election people say there’s a lot at stake, but this time I really think that’s true.

Pete
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:31 PM   #2
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nobody cares pete....
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:39 PM   #3
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Some of my favorite lines from Max Boot...

"The reason why so many people are Republicans is because they hate Democrats"

Right, not because we like life, individual liberty and responsibility, strong national defense, fiscal responsibility and a robust economy. Nope, it's just because we hate democrats.

"This is why a lot of people were voting Republican...because they were looking for a candidate who would champion the interests of white people."

Black unemployment at an all time low, that fact was celebrated by the GOP at the State of The Union, while all the democrats sat on their hands, miserable. But Republicans are racists.

"If Trump could get away with it, I’m sure he would love to emulate Putin and impose a dictatorship of his own."

All kinds of evidence to support this accusation!

"They somehow disassociate ordinary Republicans from Donald Trump"

Yes, we are all Donald Trump. There's nothing more fair or democratic, than guilt by association!

"I think you need to punish the Republicans for taking these appalling positions, abusing minorities, championing white nationalism"

Yes, we're all racists too.

Great stuff Pete, not even a little bit crazy. Watch how many conservatives here switch parties because of this well thought out, totally rational, not the least bit un-hinged, interview with a guy that no one has ever heard of.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:23 PM   #4
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Here you go, Pete, just to provide a small speck of balance to what you usually post about conservatives. We ain't perfect, not even close. But we aren't what you make us out to be, either, not even close.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/o...21kristof.html
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:42 PM   #5
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nobody cares pete....
Jim cares, he gets very threatened and reacts angrily to any viewpoint that doesn't fit his.
I'm always curious about different viewpoints, especially one's I have not seen before because we all look at things from different directions.

I have a few new quotes for you

“Closed-minded people don’t want their ideas challenged.”
― Ray Dalio, Principles: Life and Work

“I urge you to be curious enough to want to understand how the people who see things differently from you came to see them that way.”
― Ray Dalio, Principles: Life and Work

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Old 10-10-2018, 01:46 PM   #6
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Here you go, Pete, just to provide a small speck of balance to what you usually post about conservatives. We ain't perfect, not even close. But we aren't what you make us out to be, either, not even close.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/o...21kristof.html
And he wrote this also
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/03/o...ype=collection

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Old 10-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #7
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I'm always curious about different viewpoints,
no you aren't...
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:24 PM   #8
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Jim cares, he gets very threatened and reacts angrily to any viewpoint that doesn't fit his.
I'm always curious about different viewpoints, especially one's I have not seen before because we all look at things from different directions.

I have a few new quotes for you

“Closed-minded people don’t want their ideas challenged.”
― Ray Dalio, Principles: Life and Work

“I urge you to be curious enough to want to understand how the people who see things differently from you came to see them that way.”
― Ray Dalio, Principles: Life and Work
"Jim cares, he gets very threatened and reacts angrily to any viewpoint that doesn't fit his."

I respond to your nonsense with common sense and truth. I'm not the least bit threatened by your opinion of Republicans. Why would I be? Have you seen how well the GOP has done since 2008? There's not much more I could ask for, Pete, except maybe here in CT.

You think everyone who responds to you, feels threatened by you?

"“Closed-minded people don’t want their ideas challenged.”

But you don't challenge Republican ideas, all you do is post links to people who say we are horrible racists. That's not challenging our ideas.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:15 PM   #9
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no you aren't...
It’s hard to find your viewpoint since you only have snide remarks
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:24 PM   #10
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"Jim cares, he gets very threatened and reacts angrily to any viewpoint that doesn't fit his."

I respond to your nonsense with common sense and truth. I'm not the least bit threatened by your opinion of Republicans. Why would I be? Have you seen how well the GOP has done since 2008? There's not much more I could ask for, Pete, except maybe here in CT.

You think everyone who responds to you, feels threatened by you?

"“Closed-minded people don’t want their ideas challenged.”

But you don't challenge Republican ideas, all you do is post links to people who say we are horrible racists. That's not challenging our ideas.
Trump is a racist
That a rising tide floats all boats is a given, that immigrants cost Americans is quite simply not quantified so simply.
Without immigrants there would only be native Americans living here
You’ll tell me that is not true because the data sample you want to use is smaller than that
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:29 PM   #11
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You will soon look back and realize why the country needed Trump. The improvements he will make are going to make you ask what took so long.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:30 PM   #12
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"Jim cares, he gets very threatened and reacts angrily to any viewpoint that doesn't fit his."

I respond to your nonsense with common sense and truth. I'm not the least bit threatened by your opinion of Republicans. Why would I be? Have you seen how well the GOP has done since 2008? There's not much more I could ask for, Pete, except maybe here in CT.

You think everyone who responds to you, feels threatened by you?

"“Closed-minded people don’t want their ideas challenged.”

But you don't challenge Republican ideas, all you do is post links to people who say we are horrible racists. That's not challenging our ideas.
Pete lives in a home absent of mirrors.
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:50 PM   #13
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When I post something that perhaps even I disagree with some people squeal like a stuck pig.
There is some truth to what Max Boot posits, you may not like it, but minimally he agrees with what he says and I think more than he think that he, unfortunately is correct.
Perhaps we will find out shortly who agrees
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:45 AM   #14
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You will soon look back and realize why the country needed Trump. The improvements he will make are going to make you ask what took so long.
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what improvements do you speak..


President Trump wrote an opinion article for USA Today on Oct. 10 regarding proposals to expand Medicare to all Americans — known as Medicare-for-All — in which almost every sentence contained a misleading statement or a falsehood.

what a surprise
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:57 AM   #15
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Trump Democrats have pledged to "resist" the Trump Administration at every moment, fueling nasty political discourse and hurting efforts at bipartisanship.

President Trump has been president for 427 days -- and HALF of his nominees still have not been confirmed because of Senate Democrat obstructionists.

Now he needs your help fighting back. https://gop.com/stop-obstructing/Tell Democrats to stop hijacking our government.

Conservative Amnesia seems to happen with facts and history funny how rapant it is but the use of lies and fear are fore front when ever Trump opens his mouth

Our No. 1 priority is to make this president a one-term president,”’ Mitch McConnell,
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:25 AM   #16
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Trump is a racist
That a rising tide floats all boats is a given, that immigrants cost Americans is quite simply not quantified so simply.
Without immigrants there would only be native Americans living here
You’ll tell me that is not true because the data sample you want to use is smaller than that
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so when millions of penniless, unskilled, uneducated immigrants come here, and many aren’t paying income taxes, yet we have to help them with shelter, food, medical care, we have to provide police and fire protection, and we have to educate their children, you aren’t convinced that’s not a drain on our finances? You can’t be convinced of what you refuse to believe, I guess.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:29 AM   #17
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wdmso, dontounreally see no difference between the resistance to trump and the resistance to obama?

i’m not sayingbthe gop wasn’t obstructionist, of course they were. but they nominated sotomayor and kagan, and when they took a pass on garland, they invoked a procedural option to do so, they didn’t try to say he was a serial gang rapist. there was no republican equivalent to antifa, no riots in the streets, no calls to hound democrats in public places tonletnthem know they aren’t welcome anywhere, which is what maxine waters said.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:01 AM   #18
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what improvements do you speak..


President Trump wrote an opinion article for USA Today on Oct. 10 regarding proposals to expand Medicare to all Americans — known as Medicare-for-All — in which almost every sentence contained a misleading statement or a falsehood.

what a surprise
Here's the difference.

When Obama was POTUS, a republican congressman hated him so much, he shouted out "liar" at the state of the union, and it was horribly inappropriate for him to do so.

Compare that to Maxine Waters, who goes in TV and asks voters to hound republican politicians from the public square whenever they are seen, to let them know that "they're not welcome anywhere".

For a decade, democrats fought dirty, and democrats took it for granted that the republicans would simply take the dirty blow and move on. The GOP finally decided to elect someone who was more than willing to take off the boxing gloves and put on the brass knuckles if it came to that, and they can't handle that we are finally fighting back, and not only that, we are pulverizing them. That may change in November, bought for the last 2 years, the democrats have been absolutely pulverized at every turn, and with each defeat, they get angrier and angrier.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:50 AM   #19
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so when millions of penniless, unskilled, uneducated immigrants come here, and many aren’t paying income taxes, yet we have to help them with shelter, food, medical care, we have to provide police and fire protection, and we have to educate their children, you aren’t convinced that’s not a drain on our finances? You can’t be convinced of what you refuse to believe, I guess.
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Find the data that proves what you claim
https://www.thebalance.com/how-immig...conomy-4125413
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5794227/
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...erican-economy
http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu...states-economy
https://www.theamericanconservative....r-immigration/

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Old 10-11-2018, 09:08 AM   #20
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That's one so obvious, I don't need the data, and any data that suggests otherwise, is politically motivated bullsh*t.

People who go on welfare and who have kids in public school, can't be paying their own way. I'm happy to help people who need it, including legal immigrants. But don't try to convince anyone that they are a net gain to the bottom line. That's nonsense.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Here's the difference.

When Obama was POTUS, a republican congressman hated him so much, he shouted out "liar" at the state of the union, and it was horribly inappropriate for him to do so.

Compare that to Maxine Waters, who goes in TV and asks voters to hound republican politicians from the public square whenever they are seen, to let them know that "they're not welcome anywhere".

For a decade, democrats fought dirty, and democrats took it for granted that the republicans would simply take the dirty blow and move on. The GOP finally decided to elect someone who was more than willing to take off the boxing gloves and put on the brass knuckles if it came to that, and they can't handle that we are finally fighting back, and not only that, we are pulverizing them. That may change in November, bought for the last 2 years, the democrats have been absolutely pulverized at every turn, and with each defeat, they get angrier and angrier.
Democrats face death threats and vandalism over healthcare reform bill
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...publican-obama
Delegates face death threats from Trump supporters
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...porters-222302
Congresswoman Maxine Waters Says She Is Facing Increased Death Threats
https://blackamericaweb.com/2018/07/...death-threats/
Lawmakers who proposed gun laws face threats
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ation/1978683/
Vermont's transgender gubernatorial candidate getting death threats
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...hreats-n902851
11 Times Male Politicians Threatened Female Colleagues With Violence
https://www.bustle.com/p/11-times-ma...olence-2979816
Christine Blasey Ford: Kavanaugh accuser 'faces death threats'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45568450

Pete
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:22 AM   #22
Pete F.
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That's one so obvious, I don't need the data, and any data that suggests otherwise, is politically motivated bullsh*t.

People who go on welfare and who have kids in public school, can't be paying their own way. I'm happy to help people who need it, including legal immigrants. But don't try to convince anyone that they are a net gain to the bottom line. That's nonsense.
You just made my point, you have no evidence, just listened to Faux and therefore it is true.
If what you claim is true and immigrants are a drain on society, America would have been getting worse and worse since the Pilgrims arrived. In the eyes of the Native Americans you would be correct.

The same was said about the Italians, the Irish, the Polish, the Asians and all the other groups that came here. It was not true then and is not now.

Pete
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:35 AM   #23
Jim in CT
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Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
Democrats face death threats and vandalism over healthcare reform bill
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...publican-obama
Delegates face death threats from Trump supporters
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...porters-222302
Congresswoman Maxine Waters Says She Is Facing Increased Death Threats
https://blackamericaweb.com/2018/07/...death-threats/
Lawmakers who proposed gun laws face threats
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ation/1978683/
Vermont's transgender gubernatorial candidate getting death threats
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...hreats-n902851
11 Times Male Politicians Threatened Female Colleagues With Violence
https://www.bustle.com/p/11-times-ma...olence-2979816
Christine Blasey Ford: Kavanaugh accuser 'faces death threats'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45568450
Now if I said that Republicans never behave badly, you could refute that with your data. I never said that. There are tens of millions of registered Republicans, and some of them are truly evil. I would never claim otherwise.

I'm talking about elected officials, and popular, influential folks in the media. I'm talking about what's considered 'normal' behavior by each side today.

Pete, what happens when liberal speak at college campuses, and what happens when conservatives speak? Are elected democrats getting forced out of restaurants by angry mobs?

What percentage of politically motivated riots, do you thing are started by conservatives? Seriously, can you answer that question? And how about answering in your own words, instead of going to your vault of liberal gibberish links,
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:51 AM   #24
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Trump is going to fix it all,no worries.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:06 AM   #25
Pete F.
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Now if I said that Republicans never behave badly, you could refute that with your data. I never said that. There are tens of millions of registered Republicans, and some of them are truly evil. I would never claim otherwise.

I'm talking about elected officials, and popular, influential folks in the media. I'm talking about what's considered 'normal' behavior by each side today.

Pete, what happens when liberal speak at college campuses, and what happens when conservatives speak? Are college students elected officials or popular yada yada? Are elected democrats getting forced out of restaurants by angry mobs?
How many? I heard of 5, Cruz, Nielsen, McConnell,rick Scott, now Sarah Sanders was politely asked to leave, that one I would classify in the wedding cake choice category

What percentage of politically motivated riots, do you thing are started by conservatives? Seriously, can you answer that question? And how about answering in your own words, instead of going to your vault of liberal gibberish links,
People in power don't riot, did you miss that part in social studies?
Have the people in power ever rioted anywhere in the world?
Who burned black churches, shot black people, beat people for wearing Obama tee shirts, beat mexicans, tried to deport mexican american citizens of the usa, deported mexican citizens of the us in the Mexican repatriation

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Old 10-11-2018, 10:15 AM   #26
Jim in CT
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You just made my point, you have no evidence, just listened to Faux and therefore it is true.
If what you claim is true and immigrants are a drain on society, America would have been getting worse and worse since the Pilgrims arrived. In the eyes of the Native Americans you would be correct.

The same was said about the Italians, the Irish, the Polish, the Asians and all the other groups that came here. It was not true then and is not now.
I do have evidence, I don't have data. Unskilled immigrants are obviously far more likely to be on welfare because they are unskilled and uneducated. They have children who must go to school, which even liberals know is expensive. And many don't pay income taxes.

This isn't limited to Mexican immigrants, never said it was. I happily concede that European immigrants are also a big financial drain. You have a real habit of "responding" to things that no one has ever said.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:46 AM   #27
Pete F.
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I do have evidence, I don't have data. Unskilled immigrants are obviously far more likely to be on welfare because they are unskilled and uneducated. They have children who must go to school, which even liberals know is expensive. And many don't pay income taxes.

This isn't limited to Mexican immigrants, never said it was. I happily concede that European immigrants are also a big financial drain. You have a real habit of "responding" to things that no one has ever said.
Anecdotal evidence is worth as much as fishing reports
I guess you missed the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act negotiated by Clinton and Gingrich in 1997
A provision of PRWORA made immigrants entering the United States ineligible for federal welfare funds for five years after arriving in the United States.
Illegal immigrants in 2015 paid 23.6 Billion in income taxes and 9 Billion in Social Security that they can never collect, at least that's what the IRS says. Quite a drain
Did you know, Immigrants start roughly half of the new businesses in the US
Here's a few of the big ones for you
Tesla
Google
Yahoo
Chobani
Panda Express

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Old 10-11-2018, 11:26 AM   #28
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Did you know, Immigrants start roughly half of the new businesses in the US
Here's a few of the big ones for you
Tesla
Google
Yahoo
Chobani
Panda Express
How many of these big ones were started by illegal immigrants? Selective, legal immigration, as needed, as they have in Canada and the rest of the world is what Jim would probably be in favor of.
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:33 AM   #29
Jim in CT
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Anecdotal evidence is worth as much as fishing reports
I guess you missed the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act negotiated by Clinton and Gingrich in 1997
A provision of PRWORA made immigrants entering the United States ineligible for federal welfare funds for five years after arriving in the United States.
Illegal immigrants in 2015 paid 23.6 Billion in income taxes and 9 Billion in Social Security that they can never collect, at least that's what the IRS says. Quite a drain
Did you know, Immigrants start roughly half of the new businesses in the US
Here's a few of the big ones for you
Tesla
Google
Yahoo
Chobani
Panda Express
Again, I cannot imagine what point you are trying to make, since no sane person claims that immigrants sit around and do nothing. Of course, many contribute something. Some contribute a ton. The question is, as a group, do they pay their own way? Their answer, of course, is no. Because for every Elan Musk, there are multiple families on welfare, and on Medicaid, with kids in public school, who cost a fortune.

I'm not arguing against immigration, I'm happy to pay taxes to help out law abiding immigrants. The point I am making, which you can't seem to grasp, is that immigration as a whole I snot a source of surplus for us, it's a big financial strain.

The links you posted above talked about the benefits of immigration., They didn't mention the costs - welfare, Medicaid, public housing, and especially, educating their kids. All of that is very expensive.

Nothing you have said on this issue, nothing, even comes close to responding to what I'm saying. I concede there are immigrants who are a bargain for us. But as a group? Very expensive.
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:37 AM   #30
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Again, I cannot imagine what point you are trying to make
I think Panda Express played for the Red Sox briefly
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