It's time to..........

[Bedford Blues]

The crisis with OIL is not the supply but WHO controls it.
There is no need to kill anyone to change things. 30 years ago
the evil USSR (Russia) appeared to be in total control of its population
using totalitarian tactics of force , lies and propaganda. That regime
ended when the population excercised non-violent action to rid itself
of communist domination. We have the means to rid ourselves of
corporate domination. Our democracy is protecting the ruling (corporate)
class and is not serving the needs of most Americans. We have a great
country and political system. The average American must realize
they have more power to change things as a group.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Bush didnt create katrina, we all did. its called global climate change, global warming, etc...

And don't forget nature and our number simply coming up. Sure global climate change and warming has a small part but that what it is, a small part. Hurricanes and Typhoons predated the industrial revolution by a billion or so years...

[fishweewee]

Flap, keep it up and you're going to be investigated by the Secret Service, no joke.

If it's any comfort to you, market conditions now exist where the refiners of oil now have an economic incentive to expand refinery capacity. Does anyone remember when gas was real cheap (below $0.75 a gallon in the '90's) and gas and oil companies were laying people off by the thousands? This is the flip side of that.

Even with added capacity, we have the challenge of rising consumption from China and India to deal with, as their economies are exploding.

For all you Bush bashers, consider this: high oil prices are not good for the economy. Our whole way of life is driven by oil. Higher oil prices act as a tax on us consumers and drives up the cost of doing business. The last four recessions have been preceded by oil going through $40 per bbl. We are experiencing a weird anomaly right now where the economy doesn't seem to be taking a huge hit - yet, from oil that is now at $70 per bbl, largely because economies in most developed countries are growing concurrently.

President Bush would never want the economy to be jeopardized - for obvious political reasons. We are all watching the price of oil, which could literally push us into a recession in three to six months if conditions persist. That is one reason why the President has released strategic reserves, to offset supply disruption from the recent hurricane. The Gulf Coast provides 40% of our gas and oil.

In the meantime, cut your consumption where you can. Oil is a self-correcting commodity. If it goes to a certain level, people just won't buy it. Carpool, use mass transit, switch to more fuel efficient vehicles, or just walk.

[Flaptail]

Ben I know it's no joke. I may have gone overboard but GW should be at least impeached for if anything else incompetence. I see he just inlisted his Dad and Clinton for a sort of Tsunami II relief drive and they have more troops lined up to go in. Now they are talking about the value of rebuilding the city of New Orleans. Seems to me that though the experts say this was a once in a 200 year storm doesn't mean it can't happen again ( is that speculation? ) Should remove the place to higher ground if any exists around there. As you can see GW is not my fav president and neither was the guy before him or before him as well. The real decent smart and deserving individuals who should be our commader and chief won't run and that's a shame, course you need bucks too, loadas of them or friends with it. If I run would you help me financially?

[Flaptail]

Oh and another thing he has not released strategic reserves only loosened epa restrictions on blending.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Gotta agree with John on that one Nebe;
Extreme weather events are part of life (before we were here)
Floods, hurricanes etc.. are only a problem when people are affected; if that happened in an uninhabited jungle it wouldnt have been a big deal;
We created Katrina ONLY in the sense that A. People lived in a city below sea level
B. Leavees were built to handle only a cat 3 hurricane
C. People will build there again.

There is debate that warming has increased the frequency and strength of hurricanes; the data I have seen leaves me skeptical at best for now. Rising sea level has a decent effect; down in the gulf coast sea level is rising faster (actually the land is sinking) than New England. This rise (say ~0.75cm/yr) is nothing when added to a 20ft surge; BUT at that rate, sea level is ~12" higher relative to that region than it was when camille hit.... those numbers are approximate done quote me... but ballpark....

For you guys smart with numbers and economics, will the post labor day decrease in demand off-set the prices at all?

[fishweewee]

Have we ever had a natural catastrophe in recent history that has taken out an entire U.S. City? N.O. was only ONE of several areas drastically hit by this storm. I don't think we have precedent for this, give the prez a break, there's only so much he can do in so little time. This is being billed as the WORST natural disaster in U.S. history!

[fishaholic18]

The end is near! Fish Hard!
And look at the HOTTIE thread!

[Bronko]

I can imagine the ease with which you all would have accepted the current administrations purchase of five thousand rescue boats, a fleet of amphibious personel carriers, floating bridges, rebuilt levies, increased national guard presence in New Orleans and the appropriation of billions of US taxpayer dollars just waiting for a category 5 hurricane to slam into new Orleans. If Bush propsed any of this 6 months ago you would have all been calling for a straight jacket. This administration has many faults, however responding to catastrophic tradgedy is clearly not one of them. (See 9/11, the tsunami, the Sudan and countless other heroic acts of selflessness doled out around the world on a daily basis). I have seen some stupid comments on this board, but blaming the administration for their response to this tradgedy only a few days since the hurricane takes the cake. Save you rabid anti-GW rhetoric for your lay-up arguments like WMD and your gal Cindy Sheehan. This storm has/will cause damage the like of which our country has never seen. To be playing armchair quarterback 72 hours after the fact is borderline insanity.

[Pete_G]

With all the talk of revolution and all, it seems like a good time to post it:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

I agree with Flaptail. Viva la Revolution!

[Iwannakeeper]

Ok....so you say you want a revolution....wwww....eee..llllll...lllll

So we all want a revolution. That should go smoothly. Aside from the sheer number of deaths that would result from both sides. Lets assume the freedom fighters win. Now what....do you think the future political leaders could come to a solution.

One side is still going to lean left, the other right. Sure you might find plenty willing to meet in the middle ground, but I think you might find that people are sort of opinionated.

If I was going to agree to a revolt. I would want to make sure that we went back to our original constitution and original government.

I do not want my $$$ seized through taxation and then redistributed to the less fortunate. If anything was going to cause me to revolt it is the wealth redistribution and most other social programs. I don't want welfare in my new government. I do not want socialized medicine. I do not want any more Socialism in my new government. I want to basically close our borders. I want to be an isolationist. And that is just one example.

Do you think the people of this country could collectively come up with a better system?

[Bedford Blues]

Our present system is welfare for the Rich !!! Tax loopholes etc.

[Pete_G]

It's great to see all the people across the nation who were afraid to speak out coming out of the woodwork.

Not really the best time of course, but it's resulting in some long overdue dialog about what is really going on in this nation.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Iwannakeeper

Ok....so you say you want a revolution....wwww....eee..llllll...lllll

So we all want a revolution. That should go smoothly. Aside from the sheer number of deaths that would result from both sides. Lets assume the freedom fighters win. Now what....do you think the future political leaders could come to a solution.

One side is still going to lean left, the other right. Sure you might find plenty willing to meet in the middle ground, but I think you might find that people are sort of opinionated.

If I was going to agree to a revolt. I would want to make sure that we went back to our original constitution and original government.

I do not want my $$$ seized through taxation and then redistributed to the less fortunate. If anything was going to cause me to revolt it is the wealth redistribution and most other social programs. I don't want welfare in my new government. I do not want socialized medicine. I do not want any more Socialism in my new government. I want to basically close our borders. I want to be an isolationist. And that is just one example.

Do you think the people of this country could collectively come up with a better system?

We have done it a couple times already. National sales tax is long overdue and junk the IRS too many loopholes and tort lawyers. Socialized medicine here could not be compared to countrys who have it and are less fortunate and not as terchnology endowed as we are. It could work and should be. Natiuonal defense is needed more now than ever in the last 60 years but our focus must be on the new conflict not the old military doctrine. Our enemies are invisible and we must find a way to make them visible and when found leave not a trace of thier ever have walked this planet. Religion must be looked at and the affect it has on the minds of those who are easily swayed by preachers in 1000 dollar suits or turbans who seek to control thier very minds and hearts. Respect, kindness and caring for each other must be the national priority not the passages of the bible as defined by tel-evangilists. If I had to say what I believe in most those three things are my guiding light. God or whatever force there is I am sure would agree with those fundemental values as a guide for everyones lives. Pat Robertson and Osama Bin Laden are not really that far apart in thier methodologies.

Above all, the truth plain and simple is what is easily brushed aside in govt. these days.

I do agree that it is now time to close our borders, rethink our national path and put America and Americans first.

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by JohnR

And I'm willing to bet the Flap wouldn't seriously advocate killing the president or go as far as to order the hit. On the other other hand, I simply don't understand any defense of incompetence that is resulting in the loss of fellow Americans. This guy is supposed to work for us. We're not supposed to work for fat cats to go ka-ching

I ain't defending Bush John.I don't really like the guy either...but a person can't around saying that killing the pres. would be good thing even if he's joking.

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

I suppose then you were in favor of slavery? Of two classes of people? Or that our forefathers should necver have started the rvolutionary war and we should all be still under the queen's rule as a colony?

I am not advocating, as John said, a "hit" but if it was to happen I wouldn't shed a tear. The CIA and our govt. has plns to take out other foriegn and domestic threats. In the service when in battle it is known to be commonplace to take out a an officer who was lnown to be incompetent inorder to survive and further someone who is and kinows what they are doing. Your blind my friend and the actions of the administration are blinding you. Wake up and smell the roses. I love this country, my brother lies in a cemetary in Worcester cause he loved it too and went off to fight in a jungle for a cause sold to us by a previous corrupt president and administration and at 19 came home after only 11 days in a glass covered box where my mother could not touch his face one last time and they would not tell us if his entire body had been found. Now we buy tee shirts at Old Navy made in that country we once said was going to cuase a domino effect and turn the world red. We got sold the same bill of goods in Iraq. He has to go and by any means nescesary and the people of this counrty have to stand up and do whatever we need to do to get the economy back in line as the spiral has started, equal healthcare for all, adequate living conditions, racial harmony and respect in the world. The muslim world is not our world or our culture. The tribal system and islam will never really embrace our view of democracy and they will always be fighting one another for control of thier destiny.

You live with blinders on, it must be nice to be oblivious, your just the kind of guy GW and his crew dream about. That's not what made this country great it's whats tearing us apart. Have a nice day! Your fellow American, Flaptail

Of course I don't support slavery.What a dumb thing to ask.

You just don't get it chief.I don't support Bush in any way,shape or form.The only thing I'm pointing out to you is that you've made several statements in support of the non-accidental death of the president and that's just wrong and shows that you don't think before you speak.Now you recant and say you don't advocate that yet you wouldn't shed a tear if he did get assasinated.
Do you think the assasination of Kennedy was a good thing?No.Well why not he is the president who put us in Vietnam.

Let me ask you this:If you had personal knowledge of an assasination plot against the president would you do anything to prevent it?Think before answer this one.

BTW.If you think the only people reading these politcal discussions are just us fisherman you be the one living with blinders on.Take FWW's advice.The net is one way the the Secret Service finds people who make dumb statements.

Have a nice day!Your fellow American.

I'm done.

[Flaptail]

Hmmm........... Actually, I think he is doing one hell of a job of killing himself and his party politically. So no need to fear, he is already dead in that vein. America is waking up to the fact as well and thats a good thing. You seem to have all the answers, why don't you run......

[Nebe]

Flap the republicans will be in power forever.... can you say voting machines with no paper trail

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Hmmm........... You seem to have all the answers, why don't you run......

You need to go fishing because you're struggling real hard to comprehend what I'm getting at here chief. I'm tryin' to help you out.So one more time......

You can't make statements supporting,even in joking,the non-accidental death of the president.Why?Because you'll end up in the clink and what good can become of that?I'll tell you...not much.

Why would I say that?Read my previous posts.I don't like the guy.I'm so tired of death and destruction it makes me sick.And yet it would never occur to me to wish death upon the president.Isn't there enough death already,why keep adding to it?

As far as running for president...no thanks.With people like you out there I wouldn't even take the chance as I like being alive and able to fish.

[stripersnipr]

Revolution........hmmm, sounds like the opportunity to wipe out Liberalism for good. Lets go for it.

[CANAL RAT]

hey im a tree hugger

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by fishweewee

Have we ever had a natural catastrophe in recent history that has taken out an entire U.S. City? N.O. was only ONE of several areas drastically hit by this storm. I don't think we have precedent for this, give the prez a break, there's only so much he can do in so little time. This is being billed as the WORST natural disaster in U.S. history!

Other than maybe Galveston (which has what, maybe a quarter of the population of NO?), there isn't another major US city that could be entirely taken out by a hurricane. Ben, hate to say this, but no hurricane expert anywhere is at all shocked at what happened down there--it's been predicted and modeled for years, and it happened exactly according to the "book".

Camille, the only prior comparable storm in my lifetime, was maybe half as big across as Katrina, and places like Biloxi and Gulfport were in fact devasted back then. As bad as Andrew was, it was a tiny storm in diameter and its swath of devastation was basically from Homestead to Coral Gables. People in Lauderdale or Boca only experienced gale force winds. What has changed since then is, the coastline has become more developed, everywhere. Mississippi being no exception. People bought houses without giving any thought to what would happen if a Big One came ashore.

But, the bottom line is, Nixon did more in a shorter time after Camille for the affected areas than GWB did. Hell, he didn't even cut short his 6 week vacation and fly back to DC until last Wednesday.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by basswipe

You need to go fishing because you're struggling real hard to comprehend what I'm getting at here chief. I'm tryin' to help you out.So one more time......

You can't make statements supporting,even in joking,the non-accidental death of the president.Why?Because you'll end up in the clink and what good can become of that?I'll tell you...not much.

Why would I say that?Read my previous posts.I don't like the guy.I'm so tired of death and destruction it makes me sick.And yet it would never occur to me to wish death upon the president.Isn't there enough death already,why keep adding to it?

As far as running for president...no thanks.With people like you out there I wouldn't even take the chance as I like being alive and able to fish.

Basswipe, I do understand. I guess my frustration at seeing Americans in this sort of predicament is just so hard for me to comprehend. I know I would never really advocate the "taking out" of this guy but right now I cannot see how we as a country, as Americans can abide the incompetence any longer. That guy Brown, the head of FEMA, has had no prior experience in emergency response. He was the head for twelve years of the Arabian Horse Breeders and judges Association and only got the job because he was a college roomate of one of George Bush's campaign advisors. There are no words to describe how dis=heartening that is to me.

I feel sorry in a way for President Bush. Here was a guy who ran on his fathers name and won (?) out of total chaos with the current electoral system and who should have been in for only 4 years in a nondescript presidency. Along comes 9-11. Now he is thrust into a global and political situation that he was neither equipped or prepared for as someone who has the leadership capabilities or the knowledge of current world politics to handle. He just does not have the inteligence, on a personal level, or wisdom for the world arena, maybe business wise on a more local level but not as a world leader or diplomat.

I really do think with him and the current situation at hand that administration that now sits in residence in Washington needs to be removed before his term is over. Impeachment is called for, now, immediately. An unprecidented house cleaning of the presidency, vice presedency. Defense , State and Homeland Security and Fema shoul be immediatly removed and an interim govt. be installed. I knoww the chos that would create. American doller values would crash, the stock market would respond wildly but also the world opinion of what we would have done would also look more favorably on us. We must close our borders and look internally for a period. We must let the world know that we have to attend to our immediate family before we can participate in the global family, which after our house cleaning and our American family healing we will once again become partners with the world as a whole. We have to look to ourselves. To the goal of racial equality, raise the bar to commom standards for every American. Healthcare, decent housing, jobs need to be brought back home from overseas. Corporate greed needs to be curbed. Should the CEO of Levi's really get a 22 million dollar bonus for closing down the last three North American plants and sending them to Asia and latin America with the result of 3000 plus workers getting the pink slip?

It's time for a change before we go down as the romans, the greeks the egyptians and all the great civilization before us did. America was and is still a great experiment who is being watched by the world. The signs are there that we may have reached our Zenith and be headed on the downward side of our flight. We can recover but we need to change things and do it as soon as possible our collective futures and our childrens hang on the very prospect.

[BigFish]

I think the US Government really showed the world their a$$ on this one!

[Mike P]

Steve--you can't impeach a President for incompetence. The Constitution makes it pretty clear---only for "high crimes and misdemeanors" committed while in office.

I think Bush should have asked his old man why Saddam was allowed to stay in power after the first Iraq war, too, before starting up with this one. And maybe listened to his dad more than he listened to guys like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. I blame Rumsfeld most of all for what has happened over there. It was his bright idea that the job could be done with a quarter of the troops we used in '91, and that we'd be welcomed with flowers and open arms as liberators

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Steve--you can't impeach a President for incompetence. The Constitution makes it pretty clear---only for "high crimes and misdemeanors" committed while in office.

I think Bush should have asked his old man why Saddam was allowed to stay in power after the first Iraq war, too, before starting up with this one. And maybe listened to his dad more than he listened to guys like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. I blame Rumsfeld most of all for what has happened over there. It was his bright idea that the job could be done with a quarter of the troops we used in '91, and that we'd be welcomed with flowers and open arms as liberators

Mike, what was the impetus to remove Andrew Johnson after Lincoln was assinated? Wasn't it because he was incompetent? I don't really remember but I thought tht was it. Can a vote of no confidence be had if the commander and chief shows himself to be just that? It would be interesting to know. Can you shed some light on that aspect? Thanks.

[Flaptail]

Sorry typed too fast Lincoln wasn't "assinated" ( maybe in the political cartoons of the time) but assasinated. Sorry carry on.

[Mike P]

Andrew Johnson was impeached on what were basically trumped-up charges. He was, first of all, a Democrat and replaced Lincoln's first term VP, Hannibal Hamblin, to create sort of a "unity" ticket during the Civil War. Secondly, he was a Southerner, from Tennessee. That made him hugely unpopular with the so-called "Radical Republicans" who wanted to punish the Confederacy during Reconstruction. And, they did everything they could to undermine his power.

What led to Johnson's impeachment and trial was that Congress enacted a law (that was probably unconstitutional to begin with) prohibiting the President from firing Caninet and other high level officers without the approval of the Senate, which was solidly controlled by the Republicans. Johnson defied the law and went ahead and fired an official who he felt wasn't following his administration's agenda. He broke the law, so it was easy to claim that he committed a "high crime" or at least a "misdemeanor". He was impeached by the Hosue, but was acquitted at his Senate trial by a single vote. He got to stay on as President but he was really powerless after that.

"No confidence" votes do exist in other democracies that have a Parliamentary system, where the Prime Minister or Premier is the leader of the party that controls the lower house of the Legislature. Not sure on this, but I don't believe they have scheduled elections like we do. A certain percentage of the Legislature can ask for elections or pass a "no confidence" resolution, and the citizens go to the polls shortly thereafter.

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

It's time for a change before we go down as the romans, the greeks the egyptians and all the great civilization before us did. America was and is still a great experiment who is being watched by the world. The signs are there that we may have reached our Zenith and be headed on the downward side of our flight. We can recover but we need to change things and do it as soon as possible our collective futures and our childrens hang on the very prospect.

I'd been afraid to say it (here anyways) but that's kind of how I feel about the country right now.

We need great leaders to make this country great again or we'll fall like our predecessors.

[greenmeanie]

Or how about we regulate your paycheck? I am sure you wouldn't like that now would you?

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Oh yeah and get rid of the I.R.S. and go to a national sales tax. Even a glass eye in a dog's ass could see that they would get less ripped off than they do now by loopholes and people just not reporting all they earn. This country is being dragged through the mud by the dumbest ( he had the lowest IQ score of any president ever tested) president and administration to date. Where's Lee Harvey when you really need him?

Bush--->