Last nights speach

[buckman]

Good morning,

Well what did you think? He's the magic man right? He's going to save us and there is nothing we can do.

Petty bringing up Bush's little trillion dollar deficit to a huge round of cheers.

A pathetic group of children we have in there right now. You must be proud

[spence]

I thought it was pretty good overall. He certainly made the liberal argument quite well at the end.

I liked that he left the door on tort reform open (even if just a little) and stated in no uncertain terms the deficit spending wasn't an option. Even if this isn't very feasible, it will force the Dems to cut costs or face their own words come election time.

What I found much more interesting was the Republican response. Quite tame compared to the town hall chaos, and seemed to be more of a road map for how the GOP was ready to compromise.

If that's all indeed the case, this speech could go a long way towards a bill that actually makes some sense.

-spence

[spence]

This guy scored some major dip %$%$%$%$ points...

Lawmaker?s ?You lie? outburst denounced - Health care reform- msnbc.com

-spence

[justplugit]

Good speech, can't take that away from him. Starts with 2 sob stories
and ends with 1 playing on emotion. But you can't let emotions rule your thinking.

Not any details as to how this program is going to pay for itself without
adding to the deficit. His cost of 900 billion sounds oh so much better than a Trillion
which will end up being a lot more than a Trillion, guaranteed.
Sounds like pie in the sky.

If it's possible to find 900 billion in costs cuts why now and not before? As he said,
significant details need to be ironed out.

Two things i didn't like, a public option which will allow employers to
drop health care onto the public option, making for what will become a
large government program. Second the fact that you will be required
to have HC. Another Freedom taken away from the American people.

The funniest thing i saw was Pelosi's face and how fast she reached for
her copy of the speech when he said the plan would not include illegal aliens.

All in all pretty good speech with what appeared to leave a crack open
for negotiations.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

If it's possible to find 900 billion in costs cuts why now and not before?

Bush was too busy increasing the size of the entitlement

I think you need some reforms that can offset the impact of just cutting costs. This, if done right, might gain efficiencies that can offset the cuts without hurting the level of service.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Bush was too busy increasing the size of the entitlement

I think you need some reforms that can offset the impact of just cutting costs. This, if done right, might gain efficiencies that can offset the cuts without hurting the level of service.

-spence

Obama's HC will be one of the biggest entitlement plans ever and at the same time will take away another of your Freedoms of Choice by requiring you to have it.
While i didn't agree with a lot of Bush's policies, especially the spending, your
It's getting old. I thought we were turning a new page? Where is the CHANGE in spending?

Obama has had 8 months to cut spending, and the only thing he's done is spend, spend, spend.
Where are the cuts??? Spending cuts are more important now,
with the economy the way it is, then ever before.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

This guy scored some major dip %$%$%$%$ points...

Lawmaker?s ?You lie? outburst denounced - Health care reform- msnbc.com

-spence

"This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill," Wilson said. "While I disagree with the President's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility." WILSON

..this is an honest apology for a momentary lapse



"Because this has been ratcheting up and I helped contribute to ratcheting it up, I want to make clear that in my choice of words I unfortunately gave an impression that I was maligning the Cambridge Police Department or Sgt. Crowley specifically and I could have calibrated those words differently."

"My sense is you've got two good people in a circumstance in which neither of them were able to resolve it the way the wanted to resolve it," Obama added..

..this is a lying weasel sort-of not really an apology for a calculated "calibrated" remark...

saying "acted stupidly" gave the impression that he was maligning the Cambridge police?? no way....how could anyone have gotten the wrong impression?


Obama was lying...Crowley was not acting stupidly

it is frightfully disingenuous for Obama or anyone in leadership to suggest that they would not like to provide healthcare or any other government services to illegals or anyone else...of course they do...if they can't grant amnesty they'll be trying to figure out every conceiveable way to lump them on the pile of government dependents...it's who they are

it may have been inappropriate but it's about time someone stood up and called this clown a bleepin' liar....

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

"This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill," Wilson said. "While I disagree with the President's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility." WILSON

..this is an honest apology for a momentary lapse

A lot of Republicans are pissed about this. But, I guess even the cheerleaders kept cheering when the Dolphins went 1-15; you've obviously been practicing your spirit fingers. If the situation was reversed and someone had done this a year ago, you'd be all over them.

it may have been inappropriate but it's about time someone stood up and called this clown a bleepin' liar....

Actions like that make him and the rest of his party look like a bunch of assclowns. This isn't the British Parliament. Actions like that aren't acceptable here.

[fishbones]

He's a great speaker who had most of the people in that room swooning over every word. I can't remember in my life another president who came across so well when reading prepared statements. He definitely has a knack for getting people excited and bringing them together, whether he can deliver on his promises or not.

One confusing part for me was saying that healthcare will not be funded by taxes, but then compares it to public colleges and universities. Public colleges and universites are funded by taxes. I guess it doesn't matter anyways. If he says it, it must be true.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Actions like that make him and the rest of his party look like a bunch of assclowns. This isn't the British Parliament. Actions like that aren't acceptable here.

I think he made himself look bad, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he made his party look like a bunch of "assclowns". Especially since all of the Republicans I saw interviewed about it condemned what Wilson did.

[Bronko]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

A lot of Republicans are pissed about this. But, I guess even the cheerleaders kept cheering when the Dolphins went 1-15; you've obviously been practicing your spirit fingers. If the situation was reversed and someone had done this a year ago, you'd be all over them.



Actions like that make him and the rest of his party look like a bunch of assclowns. This isn't the British Parliament. Actions like that aren't acceptable here.

I thought he was out of line and it was totally innapropriate. His foolish outburst did however, bring about THE most notable moment of the night. Nancy Pelosi's face following the outburst was absolutely amazing. If she could have, she would have had Wilson killed on the spot. It's that type of raw emotion that tells so much about a person. You get a brief glimpse (unless you have DVR and watch it over and over again) at what any angry and treacherous louse she is. It was great theatre.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

A lot of Republicans are pissed about this. But, I guess even the cheerleaders kept cheering when the Dolphins went 1-15; you've obviously been practicing your spirit fingers. If the situation was reversed and someone had done this a year ago, you'd be all over them.



Actions like that make him and the rest of his party look like a bunch of assclowns. This isn't the British Parliament. Actions like that aren't acceptable here.

JD...I absolutely love your way with words..hey, how do you think Obama would actually handle speaking in the British Parliament?...without his teleprompter?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

A lot of Republicans are pissed about this. But, I guess even the cheerleaders kept cheering when the Dolphins went 1-15; you've obviously been practicing your spirit fingers. If the situation was reversed and someone had done this a year ago, you'd be all over them.



Actions like that make him and the rest of his party look like a bunch of assclowns. This isn't the British Parliament. Actions like that aren't acceptable here.

I can remember seeing Ted Kennedy asleep at Bush's speaches and the disrespect by Pelosi was there for anyone willing to look. You people have short memories.

While I hate to see the office direspected it's a little late for the left to be concerned with this. Joe was just calling it like it is.

900 billion $$ and no tax money or deficit spending.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

This guy scored some major dip %$%$%$%$ points...

Lawmaker?s ?You lie? outburst denounced - Health care reform- msnbc.com

-spence

Hmmmm.......think the former Editor of the Harvard Law Review has figured out that there is nothing in this bill to prevent illegals from enrolling in the public option? Of course he has. He's a Liar.[/B] Wilson is a Patriot.

WASHINGTON, July 22 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- As estimates of the costs of President Obama's national health care overhaul soar into the trillions of dollars, the powerful House Ways & Means Committee rejected an amendment last Friday that would have limited the taxpayers' liability by ensuring that illegal aliens would not qualify for the bill's health care benefits. In a straight party line vote, the committee's 26 Democrats rejected an amendment
offered by Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nev.) to the America's Affordable Health Care Choices Act, H.R. 3200.

The Heller amendment would have required the federal government to use the database set up by the federal government for states to determine eligibility for welfare benefits to also ensure that illegal aliens do not enroll in the government-run public health insurance plan. It would also have barred illegal aliens from qualifying for tax credits to subsidize the purchase of private health insurance coverage.

The defeated Heller amendment would have required applicants for government provided or subsidized health care to demonstrate eligibility through the Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) systems. Similarly, people seeking affordability credits from the government to subsidize the purchase of private insurance would also need to verify their eligibility through IEVS and SAVE.
These provisions would have effectively barred illegal aliens from receiving taxpayer funded health care benefits.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

I thought it was pretty good overall. He certainly made the liberal argument quite well at the end.

I liked that he left the door on tort reform open (even if just a little) and stated in no uncertain terms the deficit spending wasn't an option. Even if this isn't very feasible, it will force the Dems to cut costs or face their own words come election time.

What I found much more interesting was the Republican response. Quite tame compared to the town hall chaos, and seemed to be more of a road map for how the GOP was ready to compromise.

If that's all indeed the case, this speech could go a long way towards a bill that actually makes some sense.

-spence

Man, one of the best spence-isms I've read in awhile!
- stated in no uncertain terms the deficit spending wasn't an option.
- Even if this isn't very feasible

You applaud him for saying something, then in the next line say its not feasible!

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Man, one of the best spence-isms I've read in awhile!
- stated in no uncertain terms the deficit spending wasn't an option.
- Even if this isn't very feasible

You applaud him for saying something, then in the next line say its not feasible!

It clearly was a calculated line, but ultimately it's a move towards the middle...and that's what counts.

-spence

[buckman]

fact: Illegal aliens will covered, they have health care now and that won't change. Unless they become 20 million more dem. voters when they pass the McCain/Kennedy bill. In which case Obama didn't lie, there won't be any illegal aliens.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

fact: Illegal aliens will covered, they have health care now and that won't change.

Did you guys read the label on the bottle your drinking from?

(Sec. 246) titled "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS,"

The Heller amendment would be impossible to enforce without a National ID Card. Not having stronger measures doesn't mean the bill is covering something it explicitly excludes!

Today, and in the future an illegal can walk into a hospital and get care. But the plan as proposed won't provide "coverage" to illegals unless they break the law.

-spence

[scottw]

Steven Camarota, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies, "The legislation states illegals won't get the affordability credits [to pay for their healthcare]. But Wilson's comment is correct in that the normal enforcement mechanism was excluded from the bill. I think that's the fundamental question."


Camarota's organization has estimated that due to the lack of enforcement provisions — which were specifically excluded from the legislation when it was being drafted — healthcare reform would benefit 6.6 million illegals at a cost of some $31 billion.


"In that sense it is disingenuous," says Camarota, "to argue that the bill is excluding illegal immigrants. I'm not going to say lie. It's disingenuous. It's not entirely correct. And that's a big deal."


Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., had offered an amendment that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized healthcare under the proposed plan.


The House Ways and Means Committee nixed the Heller amendment by a 26-to-15 vote along straight party lines.

Many states give illegals drivers licenses, which will be sufficient to get free healthcare under the plan.


Critics also contend that millions of illegals already have counterfeit Social Security cards or other fraudulent documents. There also is no enforcement mechanism in the legislation to prevent illegals who use fake IDs from also obtaining taxpayer-subsidized health insurance.


GOP representatives introduced the amendment to provide a way to weed out non-citizens from the program.


A description of the amendment on Heller's Web site states, "The underlying bill is insufficient for the purpose of preventing illegal aliens from accessing the bill’s proposed benefits, as it does not provide mechanisms allowing those administering the program to ensure illegal aliens cannot access taxpayer-funded subsidies and benefits."


The Heller amendment would have required that individuals applying for the public healthcare option would be subject to two systems used to verify immigration status already in use by the government: The Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program.


The two systems cross-reference Social Security numbers and employment information to establish whether an individual is a U.S. citizen.


I believe the fact that they are "illegals", as you put it indicates that they are already breaking the law....

it is hilarious to hear this administration and leadership argue that they have no intention of insuring illegals....gimme a break

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

Many states give illegals drivers licenses, which will be sufficient to get free healthcare under the plan.

Health insurance under the plan would either be paid for, or subsidized through tax credits.

How many illegals do you know who file a tax return?

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Health insurance under the plan would either be paid for, or subsidized through tax credits.

How many illegals do you know who file a tax return?

-spence

I thought the rich were paying for it ?...


how many illegals currently get countless government services that they are not supposed to get, thanks to the dems and advocates, sanctuary cities etc...?


"the plan"

which plan Spence?...Obama was running around yesterday talking about "his plan"..."my plan this...my plan that"...is Obama's plan in writing? can you show me this in writing or are we supposed to trust the word of a liar?

....and we know that dems love to sneak things in at 3am when noone has the chance to read them and then immediately run a vote through....

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

How many illegals do you know who file a tax return?

-spence

Exactly, they work under the table, never contribute or pay their fair share.

[buckman]

They will be covered... it will effect more then 5% of us.....it will add to the deficit....it will add to the tax burden, maybe not for you, but for others, I guess your ok with that....It will mean the Feds deciding on what you get and don't get.

I drink Crown Spence. Unless I want to put on a media circus to boost my ego and settle a race war. Then I drink Bud..

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

They will be covered... it will effect more then 5% of us.....it will add to the deficit....it will add to the tax burden, maybe not for you, but for others, I guess your ok with that....It will mean the Feds deciding on what you get and don't get.

Perhaps you should try reading the actual proposals rather than just the GOP talking points.

The Obama proposal doesn't apply to illegals.

The House bill doesn't provide taxpayer funded subsidies to illegals.

About the only way illegals could get more free health benefits with this reform is by expanding Medicaid through existing law (the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act) signed by Ronald Reagan in 1986.

-spence

[FishermanTim]

When they sneak thru the McCain/Kennedy bill, there won't be any "undocumented aliens" AKA illegal immigrants.

What I really find insulting is the repeated attempts to rush through legislation that no one has the time to read (without an interpreter).
If these measures were truly "for the best" they'd give people a chance to read these documents.
I think these "bills" are finely orchestrated events, where the documents are loaded with so much crap that no one can understand them without a translator.
If I wanted to pass a bill/law quickly, I'd do the same thing: make it next to impossible for anyone to contradict the document because no one had time to dscipher it in time.

I keep waiting for Obama's nose to start growing like Pinocchio's

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Perhaps you should try reading the actual proposals rather than just the GOP talking points.

The Obama proposal doesn't apply to illegals.

The House bill doesn't provide taxpayer funded subsidies to illegals.

About the only way illegals could get more free health benefits with this reform is by expanding Medicaid through existing law (the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act) signed by Ronald Reagan in 1986.

-spence

Then why shoot down GOP amendments that prohibit Illegals from free health care? It will be in the bill Spence. They will be covered. Obama's not going to miss this opportunity to add voters to his herd.
Believe it or not. Your choice, fairy land or reality.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

Then why shoot down GOP amendments that prohibit Illegals from free health care? It will be in the bill Spence. They will be covered. Obama's not going to miss this opportunity to add voters to his herd.
Believe it or not. Your choice, fairy land or reality.

There is no way illegals with be *included* in the bill.

How about this... if there is explicit inclusion of illegals in the bill, food and beers for you and me at the Chieftain, my treat. If it's not, tuna trip on your boat?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

There is no way illegals with be *included* in the bill.

How about this... if there is explicit inclusion of illegals in the bill, food and beers for you and me at the Chieftain, my treat. If it's not, tuna trip on your boat?

you are right....the bill will probably only cover undocumented immigrants...no illegal aliens...

hey, maybe Acorn should take the reigns of signing everyone up for Obamacare...they are doing a bang up job with home loans and tax advice for hookers....

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

There is no way illegals with be *included* in the bill.

How about this... if there is explicit inclusion of illegals in the bill, food and beers for you and me at the Chieftain, my treat. If it's not, tuna trip on your boat?

They just won't be illegals by then or they just won't be excluded. You know how the games played JD. We heard the same thing about Mass Health. "it will only cost 100million" now it's almost a billion. "We wont cover illegals" we do. No rationing health care" it's rationed

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Then why shoot down GOP amendments that prohibit Illegals from free health care? It will be in the bill Spence. They will be covered. Obama's not going to miss this opportunity to add voters to his herd.
Believe it or not. Your choice, fairy land or reality.

Illegals can't vote.

If "they will be covered" why does both the House bill and draft Senate bills contain explicit legislation that they are not?

-spence