Palins Alaska

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

You're mixing issues here.

As a campaigner, Obama did a very good job of articulating his individual positions on policy...this isn't the same as an Administration controlling a complex political dialogue that influences public opinion.

-spence

If he said what he meant, and meant what he said in his campaign,
he shouldn't have a problem in his political dialogue now.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Obama speaks quite often and quite well on his own..

-spence

yeah, that "hostage takers" thing was great...very Presidential..

the good news for ANY future hopeful is that when Obama is done lowering the bar for discourse and denigrating the office, just about ANYone will be a vast improvement...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

You're mixing issues here.

As a campaigner, Obama did a very good job of articulating his individual positions on policy...this isn't the same as an Administration controlling a complex political dialogue that influences public opinion.



Clearly then you don't read very well. You just quoted me being critical of Obama and then in almost the same breadth accuse me of fealty.

-spence

The GOP wins by historic margins, and your "criticism" of Obama is NOT that his agenda was rejected, but that he didn't do a good enough job articulating the "value", as you put it, of his policies.

So it's not that his agenda is ruinous and destructive, no no, it cannot be that. It has to be that tens of millions of regular Americans just aren't sophisticated enough to know what's really good for us.

Spence, can I ask you somehting? Are you aware of what's happening with the European economies right now? Given that those economies are all on the edge of collapse, why should I buy into Obama's view that a huge federal government, funded by European-like tax rates, is the way to prosperity? If that sort of western european socialism is failing everywhere, how is it going to work here?

Or am I wrong? If Obama's view of Utopia is not similar to western European socialism, how is it different?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Obama speaks quite often and quite well on his own. Perhaps there's a dependence or desire for highly refined messages that's distracting...I think that's a reasonable criticism, but to cite it as an intelligence issue doesn't make a lot of sense. There's just too much evidence to the contrary.

Palin of course rarely speaks in sentences longer than will fit on a Tweet, and when in doubt will write secret notes on her hand for reference...what was it again? Energy, Budget Cut, Tax and Lift American Spirits? Man...she much really be speaking from the heart...

-spence

Palin writes notes down on her hand, and she's an idiot.

Obama can't speak to school kids without his teleprompter, and he's a brilliant orator. Without his teleprompter, he once said, on tape, that America has 57 states (which obviously doesn't make him an idiot, it was just a mistake).

Again, you criticize Palin, and your Messiah gets a pass, for the same thing...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

yeah, that "hostage takers" thing was great...very Presidential..

the good news for ANY future hopeful is that when Obama is done lowering the bar for discourse and denigrating the office, just about ANYone will be a vast improvement...

Right. And Obama can claim that he's trying to reach across the aisle to Republicans, yet he can say to the cameras that Republicans have to get "in the back of the bus". That's bridge-building, boy.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Agree, reality TV bothering bears in the wild is akin to talking about Jesus. Excellent point...

-spence

That is the single most ridiculous Internet post I have aver read, and boy that's saying somehting.

Spence, you really, REALLY think that all Rev Wright did was "talk about Jesus"?

When he claimed that the US Government invented the AIDS virus with the specific intent of eliminating blacks from the face of the Earth, where was the Jesus reference?

When he referred to our country as "the U.S. of KKK", where was the Jesus reference?

When he said that we got what we deserved on 09/11 (when he said Americans chickens simply came home to roost that day), where was the Jesus reference?

If all Wright did was talk about Jesus, I don't think it would have been an issue.

"talking about Jesus". That makes about as much sense as boiling down Osama Bin Laden's life mission to merely "talking about Allah, nothing more".

Spence, have you been painting inside with the windows shut? You need to open the windows a bit.

How old are you? Does your Mommy know you're on the Internet?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

The GOP wins by historic margins, and your "criticism" of Obama is NOT that his agenda was rejected, but that he didn't do a good enough job articulating the "value", as you put it, of his policies. yes, when dems lose it's because the idiots out there couldn't understand what they were trying to do for them, to speak in 4th grade language would make more sense

So it's not that his agenda is ruinous and destructive, no no, it cannot be that. no, because he's so brilliant and experienced and articulate It has to be that tens of millions of regular Americans just aren't sophisticated enough to know what's really good for us. correct

Spence, can I ask you somehting? Are you aware of what's happening with the European economies right now? it's America's fault and Obama will fix it with a bailout Given that those economies are all on the edge of collapse, why should I buy into Obama's view that a huge federal government, funded by European-like tax rates, is the way to prosperity? Because a collapsing socialism requires the expansion of socialism, it eats away like a parasite on a host till the host is dead then it looks for another...the socialists solution for failing socialism is to make it bigger, everyone must be forced to join the party(event) If that sort of western european socialism is failing everywhere, how is it going to work here? our socialists are smarter...they're "progressive"

Or am I wrong? If Obama's view of Utopia is not similar to western European socialism, how is it different? that's the OLD socialism...we have neo(Ivy League)- socialists

more money/resources to work with here, we are the last thing standing in the way of Global Governance/Taxation and Regulation by a supreme governing body and world utopian socialism for the little people...ask Soros

[Raven]

Jesus has the BEST weed.

[RIJIMMY]

Man, Jim in Ct is getting fired up. its awesome.
If you're ever in MA, let me know, I like to buy you a few beers!

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

When he said that we got what we deserved on 09/11 (when he said Americans chickens simply came home to roost that day), where was the Jesus reference?


How old are you? Does your Mommy know you're on the Internet?

I can't pass this one up. I know there is a lot of negative, potentially racist comments said by Wright, and make no attempt to justify or applaud/condemn them. BUT... this one was such a talking point with the "Obama hates America crowd' that I can't not paste this. I will add, that as a full blown Agnostic, former Catholic, I know many people who sit in the Catholic church every Sunday but do not believe or agree with every single statement said by the priest/minister, and suspect that is the same for many people of many faiths. However, as an Obama supporter in '08, I don't like the fact, that he just didn't switch churches, however I suspect it was a political move to not lose his base when he was running in Chicago.

As far as it being a tired thread, it has been discussed here in previous posts, and I didn't want to rehash my arguments. Whats next? Birth certificates?


Spence just turned 40. I know because there was a surprise party his former fishing partners 9since he doesn't actually fish anymore) weren't invited to


Below was pasted from a Op-ed by Roland Martin, CNN. Bold emphasis added by me.

"I have now actually listened to the sermon Rev. Wright gave after September 11 titled, "The Day of Jerusalem's Fall." It was delivered on Sept. 16, 2001.
ALT TEXT

One of the most controversial statements in this sermon was when he mentioned "chickens coming home to roost." He was actually quoting Edward Peck, former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and deputy director of President Reagan's terrorism task force, who was speaking on FOX News. That's what he told the congregation.

He was quoting Peck as saying that America's foreign policy has put the nation in peril:

"I heard Ambassador Peck on an interview yesterday did anybody else see or hear him? He was on FOX News, this is a white man, and he was upsetting the FOX News commentators to no end, he pointed out, a white man, an ambassador, he pointed out that what Malcolm X said when he was silenced by Elijah Mohammad was in fact true, he said Americas chickens, are coming home to roost.”"



I guess Edward peck hates America too....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I can't pass this one up. I know there is a lot of negative, potentially racist comments said by Wright, and make no attempt to justify or applaud/condemn them. BUT... this one was such a talking point with the "Obama hates America crowd' that I can't not paste this. I will add, that as a full blown Agnostic, former Catholic, I know many people who sit in the Catholic church every Sunday but do not believe or agree with every single statement said by the priest/minister, and suspect that is the same for many people of many faiths. However, as an Obama supporter in '08, I don't like the fact, that he just didn't switch churches, however I suspect it was a political move to not lose his base when he was running in Chicago.

As far as it being a tired thread, it has been discussed here in previous posts, and I didn't want to rehash my arguments. Whats next? Birth certificates?


Spence just turned 40. I know because there was a surprise party his former fishing partners 9since he doesn't actually fish anymore) weren't invited to


Below was pasted from a Op-ed by Roland Martin, CNN. Bold emphasis added by me.

"I have now actually listened to the sermon Rev. Wright gave after September 11 titled, "The Day of Jerusalem's Fall." It was delivered on Sept. 16, 2001.
ALT TEXT

One of the most controversial statements in this sermon was when he mentioned "chickens coming home to roost." He was actually quoting Edward Peck, former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and deputy director of President Reagan's terrorism task force, who was speaking on FOX News. That's what he told the congregation.

He was quoting Peck as saying that America's foreign policy has put the nation in peril:

"I heard Ambassador Peck on an interview yesterday did anybody else see or hear him? He was on FOX News, this is a white man, and he was upsetting the FOX News commentators to no end, he pointed out, a white man, an ambassador, he pointed out that what Malcolm X said when he was silenced by Elijah Mohammad was in fact true, he said Americas chickens, are coming home to roost.”"



I guess Edward peck hates America too....

ROCKHOUND -

"this one was such a talking point with the "Obama hates America crowd'"

I'm part of that crowd. Obama's spiritual mentor for 20 years, Rev Wright, is a deranged racist who clearly hates this country.

Obama's political mentor, Bill Ayers, is a deranged would-be mass-murderer who clearly hates this country.

Obama's wife said, after he got the nomination, that for the first time in her adult life, she was proud of her country.

If Obama's lifelong pastor, political mentor, and wife clearly have major issues with this country, is it unreasonable to assume he agrees with that sentiment? Throw in his European speech tours where all he did was apologize for all of America's faults, and it gives me more reason to doubt his love for a country, a country for which I buried 2 teenagers who were killed under my command in Iraq.

"I know many people who sit in the Catholic church every Sunday but do not believe or agree with every single statement said by the priest/minister"

I'm a lifelong devout Catholic. I've been to Mass between 30 and 50 times a year for the last 25 years. I have never heard any parish priest consistently say anything as remotely offensive as what that kook preached. So if you want to compare the Catholic faith, to which I have dedicated much of my adult life, to black liberation theology, please provide some support. Otherwise please admit that those 2 "religions" are not remotely comparable. One is based on love and truth, one is based on hate and lies.

"I suspect it was a political move to not lose his base when he was running in Chicago. "

You may be right. And if you are right (that Obama didn't like what Wright was saying, but he wanted people to THINK he liked it), what does that say about Obama?

Either Obama agrees with that crap, or he was pretending to agree with that crap for political gain. There simply is not a third alternative, and both choices say something awful about the man.

If John McCain sat in at Klan rallies for 20 years, but he was just "pretending" to be a member so those guys would vote for him, you'd be OK with that?

"Whats next? Birth certificates? "

I never claimed he wasn't born here. I hate the man, but my hatred is based on truthful things about him, not made up stuff.

"I guess Edward peck hates America too"

I don't know who he is, so I have no basis to conclude anything...

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Man, Jim in Ct is getting fired up. its awesome.
If you're ever in MA, let me know, I like to buy you a few beers!

This is great. I don't even have to post in here anymore. I can sit back and watch someone else make Spence look foolish.

And I'll be happy to buy a few beers, too.

RIJIMMY, where have you been? Seems like you haven't been in here as much lately.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

ROCKHOUND -

"I guess Edward peck hates America too"

I don't know who he is, so I have no basis to conclude anything...

or Roland Martin for that matter...dosen't he have a fishing show on tv?...as an expert on the much maligned cut and paste.. let me say, thanks Bryan, for the most nonsensical cut and paste since the Great Depression...

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

One is based on love and truth, one is based on hate and lies.

I started typing a snarky comment about religion here, but I respect people's beliefs and right to believe what they want, so I am not going to make a joke. In a personal setting it might be humorous, online it is out of context.... My wife's family is DEVOUT catholic, and some of my family is. I respect your beliefs.

Are they comparable? Change my wording to Mormon, or Pentecostal, I don't care, the premise is the same. Do you believe 100% with your religion no questions asked and no disagreements? Do you stay in the church. I am not justifying some of the racial comments made, but I did provide context about the 9/11 line and you didn't even acknowledge that you brought it up out of context. I left out the link by mistake before. It is below.

As far as your time in Iraq, I have more than once responded to your post, with the fact that I 110% respect your service to your country, period.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Either Obama agrees with that crap, or he was pretending to agree with it for political gain.

I think it's the latter. In this land of the separation of Church and State, the fact remains that an Agnostic or Atheist can't get elected president, and people pander and pretend. I believe that 100%. I don't know Obama's actual personal religions beliefs, and I don't care. I don't dislike Sarah Palin or GW Bush for their religious belief, but it does heavily influence their politics. Religion is unfortunately a political issue. Catholic, Baptist, Aqua Buddha... it is a big issues.



http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/2...ts-911-sermon/

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by fishbones

RIJIMMY, where have you been? Seems like you haven't been in here as much lately.

Been slammed at work. Nights, weekends - just a busy time of year. I still come here for comedy relief. I pounded the Rev. Wright drum hard during the election. Thats something I could not get over and I know I posted at the time that if I was anywhere, church, public forum, theatre and someone on stage was spitting out the crap the Wright said, I grab my family and walk out.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I started typing a snarky comment about religion here, but I respect people's beliefs and right to believe what they want, so I am not going to make a joke. In a personal setting it might be humorous, online it is out of context....

Are they comparable? Change my wording to Mormon, or Pentecostal, I don't care, the premise is the same. Do you believe 100% with your religion no questions asked and no disagreements? Do you stay in the church. I am not justifying some of the racial comments made, but I did provide context about the 9/11 line and you didn't even acknowledge that you brought it up out of context. I left out the link by mistake before. It is below.

As far as your time in Iraq, I have more than once responded to your post, with the fact that I 110% respect your service to your country, period.



I think it's the latter. In this land of the separation of Church and State, the fact remains that an Agnostic or Atheist can't get elected president, and people pander and pretend. I believe that 100%. I don't know Obama's actual personal religions beliefs, and I don't care. I don't dislike Sarah Palin or GW Bush for their religious belief, but it does heavily influence their politics. Religion is unfortunately a political issue. Catholic, Baptist, Aqua Buddha... it is a big issues.



Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - The full story behind Rev. Jeremiah Wright's 9/11 sermon - CNN.com Blogs

"Change my wording to Mormon, or Pentecostal, I don't care, the premise is the same."

No, it's NOT the same, not until you can show us a real-life Mormon or Pentecostal minister who said things as offensive as Wright, as consistently as he did. Until you do that, you are making up hypotheticals, much like the "birthers" you mocked before.

"Do you believe 100 percent; with your religion no questions asked and no disagreements?"

Nope. I have minor disagreements over minor things, just like I like the Yankees and my wife likes the Red Sox. Howver, when my church says that I fought for a country that invented the AIDS virus to eradicate blacks, I denounce that chirch in the next nanosecond. Not when it's politically expedient to do so, but in the very next second.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Change my wording to Mormon, or Pentecostal, I don't care, the premise is the same."

Maybe I am generalizing to some degree, and am not trying to put your faith on par with Wrights comments.

But I bet if I had the time and read the sermons of some large churches, maybe not in the NE, where instead of race, it was consistently Anti gay, or Anti Muslim, etc.. and I am not referring to the Westboro whack jobs. You might not view Anti-Gay comments as you do Rev Wright's statements, but some do.

I was simply trying to provide context on one of the posts you mentioned. I don't know the context of the racial comments Wright made, and likely don't agree with them. You also are guilty of providing these without context though. Doesn't mean it changes what he said, I'm just saying.

It doesn't make me rethink my vote from Obama/Biden to McCain/Palin

the problem with the internet and politics, is we all come across as very angry. I'm sure you're a very nice guy, and we have fundamental disagreements. I mean hell, I tolerate RIJimmy enough to teach him my decades of bottom fishing experience. I appreciate having these discussions and your thought out responses. You are obviously a passionate guy.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Change my wording to Mormon, or Pentecostal, I don't care, the premise is the same."

No, it's NOT the same, not until you can show us a real-life Mormon or Pentecostal minister who said things as offensive as Wright, as consistently as he did. Until you do that, you are making up hypotheticals, much like the "birthers" you mocked before.

"Do you believe 100 percent; with your religion no questions asked and no disagreements?"

Nope. I have minor disagreements over minor things, just like I like the Yankees and my wife likes the Red Sox. Howver, when my church says that I fought for a country that invented the AIDS virus to eradicate blacks, I denounce that chirch in the next nanosecond. Not when it's politically expedient to do so, but in the very next second.

I'm pretty sure O eventually disowned the uncle Wright that he could "no more disown than his"...whatever....he was for him before he was against him not very "faithful"

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Maybe I am generalizing to some degree, and am not trying to put your faith on par with Wrights comments.

But I bet if I had the time and read the sermons of some large churches, maybe not in the NE, where instead of race, it was consistently Anti gay, or Anti Muslim, etc.. and I am not referring to the Westboro whack jobs. You might not view Anti-Gay comments as you do Rev Wright's statements, but some do.

I was simply trying to provide context on one of the posts you mentioned. I don't know the context of the racial comments Wright made, and likely don't agree with them. You also are guilty of providing these without context though. Doesn't mean it changes what he said, I'm just saying.
It doesn't make me rethink my vote from Obama/Biden to McCain/Palin

the problem with the internet and politics, is we all come across as very angry. I'm sure you're a very nice guy, and we have fundamental disagreements. I mean hell, I tolerate RIJimmy enough to teach him my decades of bottom fishing experience

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I mean hell, I tolerate RIJimmy enough to teach him my decades of bottom fishing experience. I appreciate having these discussions and your thought out responses. You are obviously a passionate guy.

i think you meant to type "respect and admire" instead of "tolerate"

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Maybe I am generalizing to some degree, and am not trying to put your faith on par with Wrights comments.

But I bet if I had the time and read the sermons of some large churches, maybe not in the NE, where instead of race, it was consistently Anti gay, or Anti Muslim, etc.. and I am not referring to the Westboro whack jobs. You might not view Anti-Gay comments as you do Rev Wright's statements, but some do.

I was simply trying to provide context on one of the posts you mentioned. I don't know the context of the racial comments Wright made, and likely don't agree with them. You also are guilty of providing these without context though. Doesn't mean it changes what he said, I'm just saying.

It doesn't make me rethink my vote from Obama/Biden to McCain/Palin

the problem with the internet and politics, is we all come across as very angry. I'm sure you're a very nice guy, and we have fundamental disagreements. I mean hell, I tolerate RIJimmy enough to teach him my decades of bottom fishing experience. I appreciate having these discussions and your thought out responses. You are obviously a passionate guy.

"You also are guilty of providing these without context though. Doesn't mean it changes what he said, I'm just saying. "

Maybe I'm not smart enough to grasp this "context" thing. Rev Wright said that our federal government invented the AIDS virus to wage biological warfare against blacks. Put that in any context you want, it's inconceivable to me that we'd elect as President a man who would let such a pastor baptize his kids, and perform his marriage.

At the very least, how can you deny that there are valid reasons to wonder what Obama really thinks about this country?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

At the very least, how can you deny that there are valid reasons to wonder what Obama really thinks about this country?

And there is a fundamental difference between us.

I believe he doesn't hate America, you do. we could continually go around.

Context (of the quotes) may have been the wrong word. I need to read them in their entirety I guess is what I meant. The 'chickens come home to roost' comment, it turns out was a direct quote of of former Ambassador to Iraq and Regan cabinet member, not Wrights original idea, and was taken out of context from his sermon. Again, it may not change a thing, that may be the exception, and they may be as racial and %$%$%$%$ty as it sounds, but I try and be critical of what I hear from both sides of the media.

RIJ, I meant what I said. tolerate is the right word

[scottw]

DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE IS AWFULLY HARD WORK...

WIKIPEDIA

Jeremiah Wright Controversy
Main article: Jeremiah Wright controversy
In March 2008 the U.S. Presidential campaign of Barack Obama was affected when videos of sermons by the Reverend Jeremiah Wright, his former pastor at Trinity United Church of Christ, came to media attention. In one broadcast on many media outlets, including ABC News, Wright, on Sept. 16, 2001, referenced an appearance of Peck on Fox News before saying, "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye...and now we are indignant, because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost." Wright attributed to Peck the credit for allegedly "pointing out" that "America's chickens are coming home to roost", a phrase Wright repeated several times. According to PBS Ombudsman Michael Getler, though Peck did cite numerous faults against America and criticized its foreign policy, "Peck never used the phrase about chickens coming home to roost. His answers were more nuanced."[9]

he was also in the CARTER ADMIN(which I could care less about but Bry felt the Regan association quite important to point out) AND...He argues that while Hezbollah could be considered a terrorist organization, it is no more terrorist than Israel or the U.S. itself. He supports a dialogue with Hezbollah.
Peck has also said that he also believes that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

And there is a fundamental difference between us.

I believe he doesn't hate America, you do. we could continually go around.

Context (of the quotes) may have been the wrong word. I need to read them in their entirety I guess is what I meant. The 'chickens come home to roost' comment, it turns out was a direct quote of of former Ambassador to Iraq and Regan cabinet member, not Wrights original idea, and was taken out of context from his sermon. Again, it may not change a thing, that may be the exception, and they may be as racial and %$%$%$%$ty as it sounds, but I try and be critical of what I hear from both sides of the media.

RIJ, I meant what I said. tolerate is the right word

Rockhound, I do enjoy this debate, and I hope my posts are not coming across harsher than I'm intending. My posts tend to do that, unfortunately. You and I don't agree, but you have been very respectful.

"I believe he doesn't hate America, you do. we could continually go around. "

I'm not saying I think he hates America. I'm saying his spiritual mentor, his political mentor, and his wife all dislike this country to varying degrees. Do you agree?

Given that the most important people in his life seem to dislike this country, it seems rational to me to wonder what he thinks. But those who dare to question his patriotism are dismissed as kooky racists by those who worship Obama.

Rockhound, how about economics? I'm no expert by any means, but here's what I think...

(1) the western European nations are more socialist in nature than the US currently is (fact)
(2) those western european nations are in far more economic danger than the US currently is (fact)
(3) given (1) and (2), it's fair to say that western european socialism doesn't seem to be working (my opinion, but reasonable I think)
(4) in order to save themselves, those nations are drastically cutting spending (fact)
(5) Obama's vision of america is one where the federal government is larger than we're used to, with higher taxes to support it (I'd say that's fact, I don't see how you can disagree). In other words, he favors the western European model.

\Given all this, why would anyone in his right mind believe that we should repeat the same mistakes that are currently destroying Western Europe? Why is that form of light socialism going to work here, if it has never worked anywhere else?

I don't like the fact that there are poor folks out there. If someone could build a society where everyone made exactly $125,000, I would want to live there. But there is a reason why, in the history of the planet, no opne has been able to pull it off. It just doesn't work.

Therefore, I am as opposed to Obama's economic policies as I can be. Our economy was doing just fine until the subprime mortgages imploded.

What do you think?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Rockhound, I do enjoy this debate, and I hope my posts are not coming across harsher than I'm intending. My posts tend to do that, unfortunately. You and I don't agree, but you have been very respectful.

"I believe he doesn't hate America, you do. we could continually go around. "

I'm not saying I think he hates America. I'm saying his spiritual mentor, his political mentor, and his wife all dislike this country to varying degrees. Do you agree?

Given that the most important people in his life seem to dislike this country, it seems rational to me to wonder what he thinks. But those who dare to question his patriotism are dismissed as kooky racists by those who worship Obama.

Rockhound, how about economics? I'm no expert by any means, but here's what I think...

What do you think?

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND
I can't pass this one up. ,, it has been discussed here in previous posts, and I didn't want to rehash my arguments. Whats next? Birth certificates?

pasted from a Op-ed by Roland Martin, CNN. Bold emphasis added by me.

did anybody else see or hear him? He was on FOX News, this is a white man,

I guess Edward peck hates America too....
...........................................




it's a little more than that Jim, Bryan has formed his opinion based on a CNN/MSNBC fairytale illusion narrative rather than actual facts...he just proved it by using a story by a CNN unknown, claiming to debunk the Reverend Wright myth claiming that a member of the Regan administration had said exactly the same thing...none of which is true and it turns out that his expert witness sounds exactly like most Obama "friends" and would have actually fit quite nicely in to the Wright Congregation.....it's not a difference of "Opinion"...it's a difference in the ability/willingness to selectively ignore or dismiss basic facts simply because they disagree with his world view and it occurs routinely and results in thin arguments beyond the basic talking points...what sort of debate do you have when facts are completely ignored or dismissed or in this case...invented....you stated this as a liberal trait...it's remarkably accurate...and in an effort to defend WHO?...Reverend Wright?!?!?

someone should tell him, lest he continue to wander in the dark.....you know, about the Peck thing...he's selectively ignoring me...further proof

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Rockhound, I do enjoy this debate, and I hope my posts are not coming across harsher than I'm intending. My posts tend to do that, unfortunately. You and I don't agree, but you have been very respectful.

As have you, which is why I enjoy the discussion. I just got back to this now, I wasn't ignoring the topic, just a busy day! I may come across as a raving liberal, and on some topics I am, but I'm some pseudo Liberal-Ind-Libertarian Mix.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I'm not saying I think he hates America. I'm saying his spiritual mentor, his political mentor, and his wife all dislike this country to varying degrees. Do you agree?

I think there may be aspects of the country they disagree with, but I wouldn't call Wright his political mentor, nor would I call Ayers his political mentor. As far as Michelle, who knows. I do think she is left of her husband, but I think Laura Bush was left of GWB on some topics. This has influence, but ultimately they (the wives) are not the president.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

But those who dare to question his patriotism are dismissed as kooky racists by those who worship Obama.

I don't think you come across as a kooky racist; some who are out there holding signs certainly are.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

(1) the western European nations are more socialist in nature than the US currently is (fact) (2) those western european nations are in far more economic danger than the US currently is (fact) (3) given (1) and (2), it's fair to say that western european socialism doesn't seem to be working (my opinion, but reasonable I think) (4) in order to save themselves, those nations are drastically cutting spending (fact) (5) Obama's vision of america is one where the federal government is larger than we're used to, with higher taxes to support it (I'd say that's fact, I don't see how you can disagree). In other words, he favors the western European model.

1,2,3 I accept as fact. I also think the scale of the economies of those countries is far different than the US, and makes direct comparisons difficult. I also don't see us heading down the socialist path you do. I was a fan of Healthcare for children and the elderly, and having a low-cost option for the rest of America, which is what Obama campaigned on. It remains to be seen if the current plan does that.

Here in lies a major issue. I don't think many people, myself included think that we can continue to raise spending a cut taxes, and this applies to both sides of the aisle. I think the White House dropped the ball with this one, and should have fought harder. The problem now, is that these cuts are probably permanent (maybe not a problem? I like lower taxes as well) but few of the Republicans are actually proposing ways to make the cuts needed. They were continually griping about how we need to extend unemployment, but only if the Democrats find a way to fund it. Where is the same logic with the tax cuts? What will get cut to account for the difference in income for the country.... Probably nothing right now, and nothing when the Republicans take the house.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Therefore, I am as opposed to Obama's economic policies as I can be. Our economy was doing just fine until the subprime mortgages imploded

Are you blaming this on Obama? I don't think you are, but just clarifying....

[RIJIMMY]

Bryan, its all business 101. If a lowly URI business graduate like me gets it, they need to as well!
There is no budget for 2011 is there? If no, you cant say that the tax cuts cost us anything! Tax = Revenue. A budget should be Revenue - expenses = surplus or defecit.
So if the tax rates are extended - Revenue is relatively fixed....on the BOTTOM end. Market goes up, businesses do well, etc....we can take in more revenue.
So all this talk that were funding tax breaks with the defecit is foolish. We need to greatly reduce spending and get this country making money. I know you know this, but just restating.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Bryan, its all business 101. If a lowly URI business graduate like me gets it, they need to as well!
There is no budget for 2011 is there? If no, you cant say that the tax cuts cost us anything! Tax = Revenue. A budget should be Revenue - expenses = surplus or defecit.
So if the tax rates are extended - Revenue is relatively fixed....on the BOTTOM end. Market goes up, businesses do well, etc....we can take in more revenue.
So all this talk that were funding tax breaks with the defecit is foolish. We need to greatly reduce spending and get this country making money. I know you know this, but just restating.

I agree with this, however, show me how the cutting is being accomplished from either side of the aisle right now? It certainly didn't happen under the last administration with unfunded wars and lower taxes....

It is also a good thing to remember, that even without the Bush tax cuts, we are way below historic tax levels.... what was the percentage post WWII? Was it higher than today (to pay for the War???)

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I agree with this, however, show me how this is being accomplished from either side of the aisle right now? It certainly didn't happen under the last administration with unfunded wars and lower taxes....

It is also a good thing to remember, that even without the Bush tax cuts, we are way below historic tax levels.... what was the percentage post WWII? Was it higher than today (to pay for the War???)

I think its the first step. The legislation was pending, it had to be resolved. Next - lets cut spending. I think the tea party leaders were pretty vocal after 11/2 - repubs you're up, what are you gonna do? They better step up. I dont think they'll get free ride.
we had a budget surplus in this country under Clinton, not because of some brillaint budgetary moves, but teh country was cranking with the dot-com market. Lots of capital gains. We need to crank again. Only business can crank, government wanks. Government out of the way. Its the only solution I see.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

As have you, which is why I enjoy the discussion. I just got back to this now, I wasn't ignoring the topic, just a busy day! I may come across as a raving liberal, and on some topics I am, but I'm some pseudo Liberal-Ind-Libertarian Mix.


I think there may be aspects of the country they disagree with, but I wouldn't call Wright his political mentor, nor would I call Ayers his political mentor. As far as Michelle, who knows. I do think she is left of her husband, but I think Laura Bush was left of GWB on some topics. This has influence, but ultimately they (the wives) are not the president.

I don't think you come across as a kooky racist; some who are out there holding signs certainly are.



1,2,3 I accept as fact. I also think the scale of the economies of those countries is far different than the US, and makes direct comparisons difficult. I also don't see us heading down the socialist path you do. I was a fan of Healthcare for children and the elderly, and having a low-cost option for the rest of America, which is what Obama campaigned on. It remains to be seen if the current plan does that.

Here in lies a major issue. I don't think many people, myself included think that we can continue to raise spending a cut taxes, and this applies to both sides of the aisle. I think the White House dropped the ball with this one, and should have fought harder. The problem now, is that these cuts are probably permanent (maybe not a problem? I like lower taxes as well) but few of the Republicans are actually proposing ways to make the cuts needed. They were continually griping about how we need to extend unemployment, but only if the Democrats find a way to fund it. Where is the same logic with the tax cuts? What will get cut to account for the difference in income for the country.... Probably nothing right now, and nothing when the Republicans take the house.



Are you blaming this on Obama? I don't think you are, but just clarifying....

rirockhound -

"but I wouldn't call Wright his political mentor"

I assume you meant to say "spiritual" mentor. You don't consider Wright to be Obama's spiritual mentor. Let's see...Obama sat in that church for 20 years, Wright married the Obamas, Wright baptized both of the Obama girls, what would you call it? You sound like someone who will go to great lengths to avoid reality, if that reality makes Obama look bad.

"As far as Michelle, who knows"

I know what she said. Do you?

Laura Bush? Where is the evidence she might be an anti-American influence on her husband.

You are dodging...

"I also don't see us heading down the socialist path you do."

Based on what? Obama wants the feds to play a bigger role in healthcare, the auto industry, financial markets...He wants to drastically expand the size and scope of the federal government. You say his vision is not the same as western Europe. PLEASE SUPPORT THAT STATEMENT...