Hamas - Time for a dialogue?

[Swimmer]

Likwid you almost had me there with thrunting until I looked it up. Mrs. Webster said it aint a wurd. But if it was a word I would use it to describe a powerless Iranian figurehead also. I just get a little disenfranchised when people start talking/posting about the disproportionate response with the Israelis are taking with Hamas. One has to admit that if Hamas behaved then all would be much better in Gaza.

[sean curry]

I have been to Israel. Jews and Arabs do live in peace there. 24% of the Israeli population in Arab. I am not including Gaza and the West bank. They live, work, go to school together, just like here. My cousins neighbor is an Arab, and serves in the IDF (Army). For Jews service is manditory, for non Jews is is not.

The United States has been by far the largest supporter of the Palistinian people. We have given 2.4 Billion dollars in aid since 1993. No Arab country even comes close to that. We have built Schools, Hospitals, water treatment plants. We have not done everything right, but we have put our tax payer money where our mouths are. No other country has done better.

It is kind of funny that some of the Arab countries have enough extra dough to build Islands in the ocean in the shape of palm trees.......Gee, I wonder if some of your poor cousins in Gaza could use a hand???

Most Jews in Israel are just like us. 99% of my relatives are moderate. I must admit that one of my cousins and his children, are what we would call in this country, "religious nut jobs". We were all at my cousins wedding in Philly this fall. It was almost impossible to have a political conversation with them. They really belive they are the "chosen people"! I just gigilled and told them that the U.S.A. was,......just look at the last 100 years.

I asked how they viewed the U.S. and George Bush? Their anwser was very negative. I am a liberal democrat, but, he is my president, and the majority on my countryman voted for him! Yeah Right! America Sucks!!!!!!......, except when you compare it to everywhere else!!!!!

I don't know how to fix this. I wonder if anyone does? I think it boils down to hatred. I think you have to be taught from birth or while young, that all people,.... Arabs, Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asian, Hispanic, Native Peoples, Men, Woman, Etc. are equally intelligent, just, and need to be respected. Once you really believe that in your heart, the rest will be easier.

Just look at America...., We are the most ethnically and religiously deverse people in the world. We are also the strongest, most productive, most free.

Funny how that works.

sean

[Swimmer]

Nice unbiased post Sean, well-said. Thank you

[afterhours]

ditto what frank said

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

What do you think is a reasonable end state for all of this? Two-state solution? Israel taking everything? Return to the 69 borders?



-spence

Don't know, they've had 60 years to figure it out.

I have a feeling Israel will take this to the limit this time ,militarily, to have the best upper hand possible in wahtever comes.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by spence

Underdogs often get to play by different rules.

-spence

Exactly. "Free socieities" must be necessarily constrained by their own civilized faculties - the rule of law, due process, human rights - when engaged in warfare against "terrorists". An Israeli judge framed it this way: "in defense of our way of life we sometimes have to fight with one hand bound behind our back, but let there be no question as to who has the upper hand".

[Joe]

All that type of rhetoric does is inspire another person to strap on a suicide belt and hop a bus.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by Joe

All that type of rhetoric does is inspire another person to strap on a suicide belt and hop a bus.

...so whats the solution, is it more hellfire missiles and M84s in response to suicide bombers.

[justplugit]

Hate is hate, and there is no permanent solution until people are willing to forgive unconditionally.

When generation after generation learns and teaches hate there is no chance of a solution of peace.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The problem with Hamas is that they were able to get a lot of much needed money from outher countries to help build infrastructure...Probably from Iran...

Hamas = Sunni
Iran = Shi'a

oops.

Try Saudi Arabia, our nice friends.

[likwid]

This is for you Swimmer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/op...lidi.html?_r=1

January 8, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
What You Don’t Know About Gaza
By RASHID KHALIDI

NEARLY everything you’ve been led to believe about Gaza is wrong. Below are a few essential points that seem to be missing from the conversation, much of which has taken place in the press, about Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip.

THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice. The majority of the 1.5 million people crammed into the roughly 140 square miles of the Gaza Strip belong to families that came from towns and villages outside Gaza like Ashkelon and Beersheba. They were driven to Gaza by the Israeli Army in 1948.

THE OCCUPATION The Gazans have lived under Israeli occupation since the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel is still widely considered to be an occupying power, even though it removed its troops and settlers from the strip in 2005. Israel still controls access to the area, imports and exports, and the movement of people in and out. Israel has control over Gaza’s air space and sea coast, and its forces enter the area at will. As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.

THE BLOCKADE Israel’s blockade of the strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006. Fuel, electricity, imports, exports and the movement of people in and out of the Strip have been slowly choked off, leading to life-threatening problems of sanitation, health, water supply and transportation.

The blockade has subjected many to unemployment, penury and malnutrition. This amounts to the collective punishment — with the tacit support of the United States — of a civilian population for exercising its democratic rights.

THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.

WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Rashid Khalidi, a professor of Arab studies at Columbia, is the author of the forthcoming “Sowing Crisis: The Cold War and American Dominance in the Middle East."


That last quote, how hitler-esq.

[likwid]

During the late 2008 early 2009 Israel attack on Gaza, The Times alleged that M825A1 WP shells were used in bombardments on Gaza. The Times published a photograph to support its claim. An Israeli Defence Forces spokesperson stated that the M825A1 shells being used were empty, containing neither explosives nor white phosphorus.

Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch called for Israel to desist using the controvertial munitions in densely populated civilian areas stating "Clearly it is [white phosphorus], we can tell by the explosions and the tendrils that go down [and] the fires that were burning".

Qattar based international broadcaster Al-Jazeera, the only international news media with reporters and camera crews in Gaza during the conflict, has reported that Israel may be using white phosphorous rounds against civilian areas and has repeatedly challenged Israeli spokesmen and women to repudiate this claim. An Israeli government spokesman said he would look into and reply to these claims and referred Al-Jazeera to the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) spokeswoman.

However, when questioned, the Israeli army spokeswoman refused to confirm or deny the reports, saying only that all its munitions complied with the law. The Israeli army also said operational secrecy prevented disclosure of its weaponry, but emphasised it "only employs weapons permitted by international law".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_p...3Gaza_conflict [

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by likwid

to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). .

If that number were Zero we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Its a "Cease" Fire not a "Can You Take it Down a Notch" Fire.

There's no doubt there are issues with both sides but if you can get to a point where both sides agree to stop....and then actually stop, you might see some progress in that area, Until then this will continue happening over and over.

[spence]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

There's no doubt there are issues with both sides but if you can get to a point where both sides agree to stop....and then actually stop, you might see some progress in that area, Until then this will continue happening over and over.

Here's the rub...please define "stop".

While Israel claims it was the Hamas rocket attacks that provoked this current military engagement, Hamas would argue that the rocket attacks were in response to Israeli blockades of Gaza that were restricting essential supplies.

In response to a push for democratically elected leadership the people of Gaza reject the corrupt Fatah and (freely mind you) elect Hamas...only to be told that your freedom of choice resulted in a bad choice so you get a blockade instead.

Because of these restrictions, the same tunnels Hamas uses to smuggle rockets into Gaza also transport food, medical supplies and toilet paper.

Sounds sort of like Iran in the 1950's. The people freely support socialistic leadership as the best method to share oil wealth, and in response the CIA helps deliver a coup...you know that Domino Theory and all...democracy sure is great, as long as you agree with us.

Palestine was partitioned under UN mandate and I'm thinking that International control of the situation might be the only way to get lasting peace. Take the small percentage of terrorists and militant Zionists off of the table and most everybody else simply wants the violence to end.

-spence

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by likwid

This is for you Swimmer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/op...lidi.html?_r=1


WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

“The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

That last quote, how hitler-esq.

It is easy to say that all of the people killed (700) were Palistinian civilians, because HAMAS has no uniform. They hide themselves for the most part in amongst the civilian population. When in fact most of those killed, with the exception of the UN school bombing have been fighting members of HAMAS. Israelis have begged HAMAS to stop. Warn them they have day in and day out. Stop the missiles, but what happens. Since the last time Israel sent troops into Gaza 6400 missiles have been shot at Israel, with not much of a response militarily.

Why doesn't HAMAS stop rocketing Israel and negotiate. I think that it is great idea.

And yes, the residents of Gaza are a conquered nation. They were forced/pushed to live where they do by the Israeli's in 1967-68. During peaceful times though, when the borders into Israel are open, because Hamas or when it was just Fatah, is behaving well the Gazans are allowed to work in Israel and their economy flourishes. They are not being kept as captives. Look how many have emigrated here.

About ten years ago we had this awful neighborhood problem that went on for seven or eight years. Everybody in the neighborhood ganged up on this one guy. He was the perfect target in a way. Former druggie, drinker, mood swings galore. They gave him the chit and he gave it right back. I talked to him on the phone probably 100 times over the years. He told me many personel things about himself, because he needed someone to talk too. I asked him to be completely honest with me, and I asked him a question. The question was, M&%^$, tell me the truth, do you remember the first thing that happened that started this whole thing going in the neighborhood? Honestly tell me who did what first, him or them? He couldn't answer, because he didn't know.

So as it turns out that all the petty little things that were taking place in the neighborhood were all being done, caused by, this old lady who had a real bad alcohol problem. She would stay up all night drinking while her husband was sleeping and egg somebodies house, let air out of tires, pull reflectors at the edge of the road out of the ground, pull bushes out of the ground, dig up flowers, just did stuff that would drive you bananas.

I am amazed these ten families didn't all go after M. Because they all thought M was doing it to them. So they all did chit to M to get him back. So M was getting it from the ten neighbor families and the drunk old lady too. To end this story, old lady was taken to court and found guilty of doing some stuff, she and her husband moved. But still thier was animosity from the 10 families diected towards M, becasue of the embarassment they all suffered from because of thier misdirected anger.

M called me at the station one day, and we talked again for quite awhile. He said to me they wont even let my kid drive across this semi-open right of way on his ATV with the other kids and ride around in the woods out behind all the houses. I suggested to M that he walk across the street, show some humility, even though most of what happened had nothing to do with him and stick out his hand, then ask if we could put this all behind us. He did and we haven't had a call to the neighborhood in two years. It took a tremendous amount of courage for M to do that, because of his histroy of personel probems. It shows how he has grown and healed, got himself straight, and moved on.

Well anyway, it might do everyone in the middle east to do the same.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

It is easy to say that all of the people killed (700) were Palistinian civilians, because HAMAS has no uniform.

I've never heard of Hamas members being counted as civilian deaths. I have heard credible numbers that 1/3 of those killed have been children.

International law dictates that the impact to civilian populations must be taken into account during warfare. Considering the civilian toll this action appears to be taking, and how so few really expect it to lead to anything productive, one could certianly argue that while Israel has the right to defense, the proportion of Israel's response is illegal.

They hide themselves for the most part in amongst the civilian population.

There certainly do appear to be credible reports of Hamas using human shields, which is immoral and criminal to say the least. I'm sure there are also legitimate examples where Israel has returned fire and unknowingly killed civilians.

That being said, to argue that "yea, but they were hiding behind civilians" is not an excuse.

When in fact most of those killed, with the exception of the UN school bombing have been fighting members of HAMAS.

You can't assert this as fact because you don't know it is fact.

Israelis have begged HAMAS to stop.

Israel doesn't "beg" anyone to do anything. They are in a near complete position of authority when they want to be.

Warn them they have day in and day out.

What are you %$%$%$%$ing YODA?

Since the last time Israel sent troops into Gaza 6400 missiles have been shot at Israel, with not much of a response militarily.

And how many Israelis have been killed as a result? The rockets didn't really begin until the blockade of Gaza. And yes, Hamas didn't act in the best interest of their people when they broke from Fatah after the election, but that's an issue for the Palestenian people to resolve...ideally with outside help, otherwise we just have more tit for tat.

Why doesn't HAMAS stop rocketing Israel and negotiate. I think that it is great idea.

Negotiate with what as leverage? Hamas is a tool of the neighboring states and mostly the people suffer. Israel enables Hamas by asserting itsself against all Palestenians.

The bottom line, as I've said all along, is that both sides are to blame as is the United Nations.

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by likwid

This is for you Swimmer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/op...lidi.html?_r=1

January 8, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
What You Don’t Know About Gaza
By RASHID KHALIDI

THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.

I love this paragraph. Does anybody else see something wrong with this?

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Since the last time Israel sent troops into Gaza 6400 missiles have been shot at Israel, with not much of a response militarily.

Ok, now you're straight up lying.

[spence]

Originally Posted by likwid

Ok, now you're straight up lying.

To call it a lie means you know he knows it's not true, which I don't think we have any evidence to assert.

Sounds more to me just like the conventional wisdom of many here in the US, that Israel is just trying to get along in peace and those pesky Arabs keep attacking them 'cause they hate Jews.

-spence

[likwid]

[stripersnipr]

Sometimes when a peoples attempt at genocide fails they lose land in the process.

[eastendlu]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Sometimes when a peoples attempt at genocide fails they lose land in the process.

Guess they should of claimed Germany?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Sometimes when a peoples attempt at genocide fails they lose land in the process.

Genocide? And all the time I thought it was fueled primarily by rage...

Silly Otto.

Here are two scenarios:

A) Yes young Ahmed, you should strap a bomb to yourself and get on that bus because your lot in life is to kill all the Jews.

or

B) Yes young Ahmed, the Zionists did take away your fathers farmland, they do make you go through 5 checkpoints and keep you for hours just to get to school, they did detain your brother for 15 years because he was suspected of throwing rocks and they do turn a blind eye to militant Jews who want to settle in our neighborhood. You have no future but to eek out an existance on UN aid and pray you're not struck by a tank round during a peaceful demonstration. And there's nothing you can do about it, because you're powerless. Or, perhaps you're not?

Doesn't make it right, but a little understanding can go a long way.

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Genocide? And all the time I thought it was fueled primarily by rage...

Doesn't make it right, but a little understanding can go a long way.

-spence

Yes, Rage usually is a component to Genocide. Doesn't make it right or excuse it. Understanding does go a long way but at some point you need to come to a conclusion.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Yes, Rage usually is a component to Genocide. Doesn't make it right or excuse it. Understanding does go a long way but at some point you need to come to a conclusion.

Doesn't mean you come to a wacky conclusion like it's a failed "genocide" just because you need a conclusion.

Perhaps that's your issue, you just need to think about it a little more

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

B) Yes young Ahmed, the Zionists did take away your fathers farmland, they do make you go through 5 checkpoints and keep you for hours just to get to school, they did detain your brother for 15 years because he was suspected of throwing rocks and they do turn a blind eye to militant Jews who want to settle in our neighborhood. You have no future but to eek out an existance on UN aid and pray you're not struck by a tank round during a peaceful demonstration. And there's nothing you can do about it, because you're powerless. Or, perhaps you're not?


-spence

or perhaps young Ahmed, you can look to your Arab brethren, you know the ones. They spend millions to finance terrorism and use your plight as justification for jihad? You know the ones, making trillions from oil, building massive hotels and having some of the largest GDP in the world. They point to your situation as a fault of the West while no one, not one single person, looks to them to help negotiate, fund your needs or help relocate your people. Allah be praised! Good thing they have you Ahmed, or else the world may really see the Arab nations for what they are, the richest nations in the world who have the lowest civil rights, yet always fall under the radar due to the focus on Isreal.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

or perhaps young Ahmed, you can look to your Arab brethren, you know the ones. They spend millions to finance terrorism and use your plight as justification for jihad? You know the ones, making trillions from oil, building massive hotels and having some of the largest GDP in the world. They point to your situation as a fault of the West while no one, not one single person, looks to them to help negotiate, fund your needs or help relocate your people. Allah be praised! Good thing they have you Ahmed, or else the world may really see the Arab nations for what they are, the richest nations in the world who have the lowest civil rights, yet always fall under the radar due to the focus on Isreal.

You're missing the point.

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Doesn't mean you come to a wacky conclusion like it's a failed "genocide" just because you need a conclusion.

Perhaps that's your issue, you just need to think about it a little more

-spence

So the deep thinker has concluded that a failed genocide has not occurred. Now we know where you stand.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

You're missing the point.

-spence

You ever stop to think that maybe just once, it's you missing the freakin point?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

So the deep thinker has concluded that a failed genocide has not occurred. Now we know where you stand.

If it was a "failed" genocide why are they still fighting? At the very least you'd classify it as a struggling genocide still in progress.

-spence