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Old 05-25-2022, 03:01 PM   #31
Jim in CT
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Only gun dealers with a Federal Firearms License are required to do a background check before selling a gun in Texas, not private sellers. Texas has NO state requirement for more comprehensive background checks when purchasing a firearm. Therefore, persons prohibited from owning firearms can easily obtain a gun - on the internet, at a gun show, even from a private seller out of the trunk of a car.
In states like Texas with no state-required background check, research has shown that 57% of private gun sales were done with no background check.
Around 80% of all firearms acquired for criminal purposes are obtained through transfers from unlicensed sellers. Including the purchase of his firearm by the Odessa/Midland mass shooter.
Texans overwhelmingly (79%) support universal background checks.

But itís a mental health problem
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what would the background check have shown in this case? cause to deny him a gun?

Chicago has tough gun laws. Howís that working out?

iím not saying we do nothing.
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Old 05-25-2022, 05:07 PM   #32
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what would the background check have shown in this case? cause to deny him a gun?

Chicago has tough gun laws. Howís that working out?

iím not saying we do nothing.
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Jim all guns in Chicago start out as legal guns.

Access and quantity are the big issues and the next are weapon types

Why does only the United States have this gun violence problem?

There is a reason and Mental heath isnít that reason
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Old 05-25-2022, 05:12 PM   #33
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Nobody believes (or at least I donít) no mass shootings happen elsewhere, but it really is unique to the US in terms of the numbers, we are well over 200 deaths for the year. Way too many guns and way to easy for anyone to get their hands on one. Both sides of the isle really need to figure this out or this disconnected society will continue to kill our own children.
Do you have a number above which guns are the problem and below which guns are not the problem?
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Old 05-25-2022, 05:41 PM   #34
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Why does only the United States have this gun violence problem?


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According to Newsweek, "In 2018, the homicide rate in Mexico hit a record high of 35,964, spiking 12 percent from the year before, according to the country's National Institute of Statistics and Geography. Of those murders, at least 20,005 were carried out with guns." And the murders continued to rise at the time this article was written.

The numbers are similar or worse in other countries south of our border. And much worse in parts of Africa.

Are all those numbers, which are way worse than in the U.S., a result of the weapons (mostly guns)?

With 393 million guns owned by U.S. citizens, you'd think that those guns would be killing a way lot more people than they do.

Maybe most of the guns don't want to kill anybody?

We should outlaw the guns that want to kill people.
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Old 05-25-2022, 06:17 PM   #35
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Jim all guns in Chicago start out as legal guns.

Access and quantity are the big issues and the next are weapon types

Why does only the United States have this gun violence problem?

There is a reason and Mental heath isnít that reason
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i agree access and quantity are a big issue. i agree 100%.

what do we do about it? i honestly donít know. we canít confiscate hundreds of millions of guns. literally hundreds of millions. which makes
me wonder what gun laws will
do.

i donít know why you canít concede that mental health is part of it. i guess because the dnc hasnít ordered you to believe it.

weíre a free country of 330 million people. thereís a very small number of very sick
folks, and a ton of guns.
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Old 05-25-2022, 06:29 PM   #36
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i agree access and quantity are a big issue. i agree 100%.

what do we do about it? i honestly donít know. we canít confiscate hundreds of millions of guns. literally hundreds of millions. which makes
me wonder what gun laws will
do.

i donít know why you canít concede that mental health is part of it. i guess because the dnc hasnít ordered you to believe it.

weíre a free country of 330 million people. thereís a very small number of very sick
folks, and a ton of guns.
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Any one who kills children has MH issues thatís obvious and not up to debate

Please donít go down the confiscate nonsense the right loves to preach

But when an 18 year old buys 2 ARs and 350 rounds over 3 days and thereís no red flag or waiting period in Texas .. these are basic laws needed

But In the state of Texas, a mandatory 24-hour waiting period is required for all abortions. The waiting period begins at your in-office consultation and ultrasound visit. A mandatory ultrasound is also required by law under

Texas Priorities are clear
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Old 05-25-2022, 08:52 PM   #37
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In 2008 Justice Antonin Scalia introduced another interpretation that gun proponents seize on to argue against gun control. He wrote the Supreme Court decision that individuals have the right to own firearms. But Scalia also stated, ďLike most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.Ē He approved of ďlaws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.Ē
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There can be some qualifications, but the default should be shall issue unless there is a reason not to.

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Originally Posted by wdmso View Post
Only gun dealers with a Federal Firearms License are required to do a background check before selling a gun in Texas, not private sellers. Texas has NO state requirement for more comprehensive background checks when purchasing a firearm. Therefore, persons prohibited from owning firearms can easily obtain a gun - on the internet, at a gun show, even from a private seller out of the trunk of a car.
In states like Texas with no state-required background check, research has shown that 57% of private gun sales were done with no background check.
Around 80% of all firearms acquired for criminal purposes are obtained through transfers from unlicensed sellers. Including the purchase of his firearm by the Odessa/Midland mass shooter.
Texans overwhelmingly (79%) support universal background checks.

But itís a mental health problem
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It's a Mental Health AND a Culture Problem.

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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
what would the background check have shown in this case? cause to deny him a gun?

Chicago has tough gun laws. Howís that working out?

iím not saying we do nothing.
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Doesn't work in Chicago.

RI did one thing sensible, they recently changed it to the town where you live runs the background check, not the town where the shop is.

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Jim all guns in Chicago start out as legal guns.

Access and quantity are the big issues and the next are weapon types

Why does only the United States have this gun violence problem?

There is a reason and Mental heath isnít that reason
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Lots of stolen guns in Chicago but it is NEVER the criminal's fault.

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Old 05-25-2022, 10:16 PM   #38
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In 2008 Justice Antonin Scalia introduced another interpretation that gun proponents seize on to argue against gun control. He wrote the Supreme Court decision that individuals have the right to own firearms. But Scalia also stated, “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.” He approved of “laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
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The problem I have with what Scalia said with his double negative, "not unlimited" is that he cops out from saying directly that it is limited. So why doesn't he say that "most rights are limited"?--that is the positive result of the double negative. And the double negative coming from his inclusion of it in an Court interpretation leaves the decision open to entirely voiding the 2A. For if there is no absoluteness to it, then it cannot claim any absolute immunity from being denied by some interpretation of the need to protect society.

If he cannot tell us in what way it is absolute, then it is not guaranteed, and can be eliminated if five Justices so decide. Saying that it is "not unlimited" without pointing out in what way it is unlimited, is saying that it is not an unalienable right, but rather a right or privilege granted by government, and can be limited or made void at the whim of government. Which is not what the framers of the Constitution said in the text of the Amendment.
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Old 05-25-2022, 11:28 PM   #39
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There can be some qualifications, but the default should be shall issue unless there is a reason not to.

If there can be a reason to, and the 2A does not clearly spell out the reasons, then the reason will be left up to those in government power and on the SCOTUS to spell out and enforce.

If the reason for voiding the protection provided by the 2A is left up to government, then the Amendment is not an unalienable right.


It's a Mental Health AND a Culture Problem.

I agree. The more nihilistic our culture becomes, the less life has meaning or value--and the more that destruction of life will be an attraction, an amusement, a source of power, to those who see or feel no, for lack of a better word, no sacredness, no concrete foundation, no reliable, predictable, believable reality or truth. Where all is relative, even your body can be shaped or transformed into ways that defy that which connected you to some semblance of reality. So the power you had as an individual in a structured society with coherent beliefs and customs becomes essentially frivolous. The excitement of succeeding in a prescribed society becomes a joke. Any accomplishment within the joke has fleeting value or purpose as it can be voided of meaning or importance with waves of new superficial attractions. The only believable reality is the power to participate in the joke in whichever way you choose. And the most significant thing, maybe the only significant thing you can do, the most powerful thing you can do, is just blow the whole joke up. And thus being something of actual importance to those meaningless people around you. And, for the moment, they can recognize that you are the most important thing in their existence

Lots of stolen guns in Chicago but it is NEVER the criminal's fault.
It's only their fault if they're a white supremacist.
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Old 05-26-2022, 04:01 AM   #40
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There can be some qualifications, but the default should be shall issue unless there is a reason not to.



It's a Mental Health AND a Culture Problem.



Doesn't work in Chicago.

RI did one thing sensible, they recently changed it to the town where you live runs the background check, not the town where the shop is.




Lots of stolen guns in Chicago but it is NEVER the criminal's fault.

Itís always the criminals fault

Itís never a criminals fault is just a conservatives 2a talking point

And I agree Mental Health AND a Culture Problem. Plus an a availability problem

In Texas you need to be 21 for a hand gun but 18 for any long rifle

The majority of responsible gun owners want better gun control but for some reason Republicans ignore those poll?

Have as many guns as you like they should all be registered. And have a purchase history or come with a title

Only 11 States Require Gun Owners to Report Stolen Weapons to Police

California
Connecticut
Delaware
District of Columbia
Illinois
Maryland (handguns and assault weapons only)
Massachusetts
Michigan (thefts only)
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island An DC

This 11 could be more this was dated 2017. But I doubt it


researchers at Harvard and Northeastern universities estimated that as many as 380,000 weapons are lost or stolen each


More children died by guns than car crashes in 2020, for the first time in decades

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...n-car-crashes/


Clearly this study canít blame it all on just mental health.

People who shoot up schools or serial killers yes Mental heath is a huge factor in their crimes I donít think thatís debatable but some how the weapons the use isnít debatable for many on the right as even a factor in their crimes?
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Old 05-26-2022, 05:15 AM   #41
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There can be some qualifications, but the default should be shall issue unless there is a reason not to.



It's a Mental Health AND a Culture Problem.



Doesn't work in Chicago.

RI did one thing sensible, they recently changed it to the town where you live runs the background check, not the town where the shop is.




Lots of stolen guns in Chicago but it is NEVER the criminal's fault.
no, it sure isnít working in chicago.

We all need to get better at admitting what works, and expand in that. And admitting what doesnít work, and either adjusting or doing away with what doesnít work.

What Guiliani did in NY with gun violence not only worked, it was practically a miracle. But a lot of people wonít admit that, because they donít like the party heís in and that he likes Trump.

At the same time, some conservatives need to admit the 2a isnít limitless. James Madison who wrote it, later banned firearms on campus at the university of VA when he was school president. Which means the guy who wrote it,,meant for the right to be limited. But again ,,if there are 400 million guns already out there, we need to concede that future gun control can at best have a limited impact because we arenít confiscating them

We all need to set ideology aside, and just look at results honestly. Itís not hard.

and we need to admit that the constitution might be in the way of some things weíd like to do, and thatís ok.
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Old 05-26-2022, 05:56 AM   #42
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It's only their fault if they're a white supremacist.
Stupid statement by you both, so what no criminals go to trial, itís the standard right dodge ďguns donít kill peopleĒ. Take all the assault rifles out of the picture since they became available and what is the reduction of the death rates and how many children are able to grow up.
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Old 05-26-2022, 07:20 AM   #43
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Stupid statement by you both, so what no criminals go to trial, itís the standard right dodge ďguns donít kill peopleĒ. Take all the assault rifles out of the picture since they became available and what is the reduction of the death rates and how many children are able to grow up.
I agree that weapons that look like the AR-15 are disproportionately used in mass shootings. I'm convinced the look of those rifles fuels the fantasies of some very sick folks. But we tried an assault weapons ban, it didn't work. They let it lapse. Doesn't mean it wouldn't have some benefit today, but how do you get rid of the ones already out there?
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Old 05-26-2022, 07:31 AM   #44
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The majority of responsible gun owners want better gun control but for some reason Republicans ignore those poll?

I'm going to pull this one quote because this is really where things distill from.

First and foremost, eff off for your statement that insinuates that only the firearm owners that agree with your requirements are responsible. Way to bridge the divide. But your statement there is just a mini version of the left's overall approach; marginalize and demonize the right.

A lot of Republicans want better gun control, but they do not want what the left brings. I'm willing to work for better legislation that would actually make a difference but no matter what goals or concession the right is willing to work on, it will never be enough as the left will want more and consume more. Want to know what would have worked here? A proper and well regulated Red Flag law. Why can't we have a Red Flag law that keeps firearms out of the hands of people that should not have them while respecting the rights of the significant majority of people?

The left wants no guns and the major effort made is to take the guns out of the hands of law abiding people. The left wants a UNIFYING topic they can rally support around to make Republicans Bad People, regardless of the facts on the ground. The left spends BILLIONS of dollars per year to get "assault rifles" banned for the 300-400 per year killed by them and you don't hear a fcking peep about the 15000 murders in America's cities every year. Gun homicides increased in cities by THIRTY-SEVEN PERCENT in 2020 over 2019. Over Fifty percent of gun deaths are suicide, 45 percent are violent crime. Of that violent crime, a tiny amount are these "Mass Shootings". It is still too much, and most instances of those Mass Shootings are mental health.

The left moves the needle with "Common Sense" Gun reform. Everything from the Left is "Common Sense" and it is stated enough by politicians and a compliant and willing media, they believe it. But it entirely misses the problem, mental health.

I will not accept the lefts targeting of Legal Gun owners rather than targeting the people likely to commit the crime. We could work on that but we don't because the Left doesn't want that, they want to break those that don't agree with them.

So, no, I will give in to your demands. I will not accept your "common sense" and more kids are going to die because we can't work together because YOUR side demands changes that won't resolve anything at the problem level while directly impacting the rights of those that are not the problem.





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Stupid statement by you both, so what no criminals go to trial, it’s the standard right dodge “guns don’t kill people”. Take all the assault rifles out of the picture since they became available and what is the reduction of the death rates and how many children are able to grow up.
Take "assault weapons" out of the picture and 2020's 46,000 gun deaths comes way down to about 45,700.

So, no, "assault weapons", the major target of the dems and, cough, Common Sense Gun Laws people, cough, is responsible for much less than 1% of annual gun deaths.





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Old 05-26-2022, 07:46 AM   #45
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I'm going to pull this one quote because this is really where things distill from.

First and foremost, eff off for your statement that insinuates that only the firearm owners that agree with your requirements are responsible. Way to bridge the divide. But your statement there is just a mini version of the left's overall approach; marginalize and demonize the right.

A lot of Republicans want better gun control, but they do not want what the left brings. I'm willing to work for better legislation that would actually make a difference but no matter what goals or concession the right is willing to work on, it will never be enough as the left will want more and consume more. Want to know what would have worked here? A proper and well regulated Red Flag law. Why can't we have a Red Flag law that keeps firearms out of the hands of people that should not have them while respecting the rights of the significant majority of people?

The left wants no guns and the major effort made is to take the guns out of the hands of law abiding people. The left wants a UNIFYING topic they can rally support around to make Republicans Bad People, regardless of the facts on the ground. The left spends BILLIONS of dollars per year to get "assault rifles" banned for the 300-400 per year killed by them and you don't hear a fcking peep about the 15000 murders in America's cities every year. Gun homicides increased in cities by THIRTY-SEVEN PERCENT in 2020 over 2019. Over Fifty percent of gun deaths are suicide, 45 percent are violent crime. Of that violent crime, a tiny amount are these "Mass Shootings". It is still too much, and most instances of those Mass Shootings are mental health.

The left moves the needle with "Common Sense" Gun reform. Everything from the Left is "Common Sense" and it is stated enough by politicians and a compliant and willing media, they believe it. But it entirely misses the problem, mental health.

I will not accept the lefts targeting of Legal Gun owners rather than targeting the people likely to commit the crime. We could work on that but we don't because the Left doesn't want that, they want to break those that don't agree with them.

So, no, I will give in to your demands. I will not accept your "common sense" and more kids are going to die because we can't work together because YOUR side demands changes that won't resolve anything at the problem level while directly impacting the rights of those that are not the problem.







Take "assault weapons" out of the picture and 2020's 46,000 gun deaths comes way down to about 45,700.

So, no, "assault weapons", the major target of the dems and, cough, Common Sense Gun Laws people, cough, is responsible for much less than 1% of annual gun deaths.




Red flag laws MIGHT have stopped Sandy Hook. That poor kid was well known as being horribly broken. But it's also very easy to see red flag laws abused, where certain people would spend all day calling the cops, telling them that everyone they don't like, is too dangerous to own a gun. Very ripe for abuse.

Very, very tough.

"you don't hear a fcking peep about the 15000 murders in America's cities every year."

This is exactly true, and it's irrefutable proof that this isn't about saving lives, it's about demonizing the other side to win elections. If you actually want to save lives, you'd immediately implement stop and frisk in every single big city. We know that worked. We san see what New York looked like before, during, and after. But ideology is what matters here, not results.

You never get this worked up. Tough times. And getting worse.
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Old 05-26-2022, 07:56 AM   #46
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I'm going to pull this one quote because this is really where things distill from.

First and foremost, eff off for your statement that insinuates that only the firearm owners that agree with your requirements are responsible. Way to bridge the divide. But your statement there is just a mini version of the left's overall approach; marginalize and demonize the right.

A lot of Republicans want better gun control, but they do not want what the left brings. I'm willing to work for better legislation that would actually make a difference but no matter what goals or concession the right is willing to work on, it will never be enough as the left will want more and consume more. Want to know what would have worked here? A proper and well regulated Red Flag law. Why can't we have a Red Flag law that keeps firearms out of the hands of people that should not have them while respecting the rights of the significant majority of people?

The left wants no guns and the major effort made is to take the guns out of the hands of law abiding people. The left wants a UNIFYING topic they can rally support around to make Republicans Bad People, regardless of the facts on the ground. The left spends BILLIONS of dollars per year to get "assault rifles" banned for the 300-400 per year killed by them and you don't hear a fcking peep about the 15000 murders in America's cities every year. Gun homicides increased in cities by THIRTY-SEVEN PERCENT in 2020 over 2019. Over Fifty percent of gun deaths are suicide, 45 percent are violent crime. Of that violent crime, a tiny amount are these "Mass Shootings". It is still too much, and most instances of those Mass Shootings are mental health.

The left moves the needle with "Common Sense" Gun reform. Everything from the Left is "Common Sense" and it is stated enough by politicians and a compliant and willing media, they believe it. But it entirely misses the problem, mental health.

I will not accept the lefts targeting of Legal Gun owners rather than targeting the people likely to commit the crime. We could work on that but we don't because the Left doesn't want that, they want to break those that don't agree with them.

So, no, I will give in to your demands. I will not accept your "common sense" and more kids are going to die because we can't work together because YOUR side demands changes that won't resolve anything at the problem level while directly impacting the rights of those that are not the problem.







Take "assault weapons" out of the picture and 2020's 46,000 gun deaths comes way down to about 45,700.

So, no, "assault weapons", the major target of the dems and, cough, Common Sense Gun Laws people, cough, is responsible for much less than 1% of annual gun deaths.




Do the math on mass shootings only, I'm betting it's a different picture and you just keep putting ignorant statements up one after the other. The "left wants no guns", so no left gun owners, no left hunters, no left owners of guns to protect their homes, what a crock John.
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Old 05-26-2022, 08:02 AM   #47
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Do the math on mass shootings only, I'm betting it's a different picture and you just keep putting ignorant statements up one after the other. The "left wants no guns", so no left gun owners, no left hunters, no left owners of guns to protect their homes, what a crock John.
Not a crock, Bob. Receipts Bob, I bring receipts. The difference between me and you on this topic is that I have at least done some homework and you are reacting to the feels.


https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...hs-in-the-u-s/
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Old 05-26-2022, 08:06 AM   #48
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Red flag laws MIGHT have stopped Sandy Hook. That poor kid was well known as being horribly broken. But it's also very easy to see red flag laws abused, where certain people would spend all day calling the cops, telling them that everyone they don't like, is too dangerous to own a gun. Very ripe for abuse.
A Red Flag law that has serious provisions to protect people's individual rights - current ones don't - and are written to mitigate bad faith manipulation - yeh, I can get behind those.

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Old 05-26-2022, 08:29 AM   #49
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A Red Flag law that has serious provisions to protect people's individual rights - current ones don't - and are written to mitigate bad faith manipulation - yeh, I can get behind those.
agreed. THATS common sense.

and institute stop and frisk to address garden variety city gun violence.
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Old 05-26-2022, 08:31 AM   #50
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agreed. THATS common sense.

and institute stop and frisk to address garden variety city gun violence.
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I am mixed on Stop and Frisk because THAT has impacts on the person's rights. There needs to be Just Cause, yada yada yada, to search someone by Gov officals.

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Old 05-26-2022, 10:18 AM   #51
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eff off for your statement that insinuates that only the firearm owners that agree with your requirements are responsible.


Now your hearing things ..

The public is getting sick and tired of the 2a crowd and their my way or the highway mentally.. so you have a choice participate in crafting gun laws or Keep ignoring the problem sooner or the later the public is going to fix the problem. And all gun owners wonít like the resultsÖ
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Old 05-26-2022, 10:21 AM   #52
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Hereís a start

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/defaul...2018%20(1).pdf
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Old 05-26-2022, 10:24 AM   #53
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eff off for your statement that insinuates that only the firearm owners that agree with your requirements are responsible.


Now your hearing things ..

The public is getting sick and tired of the 2a crowd and their my way or the highway mentally.. so you have a choice participate in crafting gun laws or Keep ignoring the problem sooner or the later the public is going to fix the problem. And all gun owners wonít like the resultsÖ
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I chose to participate in gun laws, I will support gun laws that are properly crafted and focus on the problems, not the boogeymen brought out. As I stated this morning:

A Red Flag law that has serious provisions to protect people's individual rights - current ones don't - and are written to mitigate bad faith manipulation - yeh, I can get behind those.


And THIS ^^^^ might have prevented 2 days ago, Parkland, Newtown, Buffalo, and half a dozen others.

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Old 05-26-2022, 11:24 AM   #54
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A bunch of police officers standing outside the school, while the shooting is going on, parents pleading for them to go in, pretty much demolishes the argument about the good guy with a gun saving anyone.
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Old 05-26-2022, 11:44 AM   #55
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An important thing to understand is that most people who have murdered large numbers of human beings were not mentally ill in any way
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Old 05-26-2022, 01:12 PM   #56
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A bunch of police officers standing outside the school, while the shooting is going on, parents pleading for them to go in, pretty much demolishes the argument about the good guy with a gun saving anyone.
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So the inability of police to reduce crime to 0, means there's no argument to support the existence of the police?

You do this a lot, to shoot down right wing ideas, you point out that those suggestions aren't guaranteed to be flawless. Can you name many liberal policies which you support, which we can't find a specific case showing them to be imperfect?

I notice you never hold liberal suggestions to the same standard, liberal suggestions don't need to be prefect. "Good" is good enough for liberal ideas, but conservative ideas are "demolished" if they are imperfect in any way.
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Old 05-26-2022, 01:14 PM   #57
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and institute stop and frisk to address garden variety city gun violence.
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In 2012, the NYPD made more than 532,000 stops, each of which could progress to a frisk or to a full search. The police found guns only 715 times. In other words, guns were found during 0.1 percent of stops.
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Old 05-26-2022, 01:29 PM   #58
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I think Herschel Walker wants to expand MH funding and do some other things. If anyone needs a job maybe they can apply to "look at young men that's looking at women, that's looking at their social media?"

We need to get into what happened to him, why, by putting money in mental health. Have people thought about that?" Walker said, referring to the 18-year-old alleged shooter in Uvalde, Texas. "We've gotta get back into prayer. People thinking now praying is bad. No, it's not bad. We need to pray for things like that. We need to continue to go out and fight, continue to take your constitutional rights away, and I think we can't do that."

Fox & Friends" co-host Brian Kilmeade asked Walker where he stands on gun control measures such as universal background checks or raising the age to buy assault weapons from 18 to 21.

"Well, you know, it's always been an issue, because as I said earlier on, they wanna score political points . People see that it's a person wielding that weapon, you know, Cain killed Abel," Walker said. "And that's the problem that we have. And I said, what we need to do is look into how we can stop those things.

"You talk about doing a disinformation," Walker continued, "what about getting a department that can look at young men that's looking at women, that's looking at their social media? What about doing that, looking into things like that, and we can stop that that way?"

Walker also mentioned "putting money into other departments rather than the department that's wanting to take away your rights," but did not specify any agency.
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Old 05-26-2022, 01:29 PM   #59
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In 2012, the NYPD made more than 532,000 stops, each of which could progress to a frisk or to a full search. The police found guns only 715 times. In other words, guns were found during 0.1 percent of stops.

If the cops weren't doing anything else at that specific time, removing 715 illegally carried guns in one year, seems like a worthwhile use of time. Until the bad guys start wearing signs that announce their intentions, unfortunately we need to cast the net pretty wide. What's a more efficient way to get illegal guns of the street? Ask criminals to pretty please turn themselves in? Chicago and DC in recent past had very tough restrictions on gun ownership, did that help gun crime more than the things Rudy did?

Put stop and frisk, specifically, aside. Did murder rates drop meaningfully during Rudy's tenure Paul? Did he do a great job with violent crime? In the 5-6 years begore Rudy was sworn in, NYC had about 2500 murders a year. By the time he left, it was under 1,000 a year. Rapes went from 5,000 per year to 3,500. Robberies from over 100,000 per year to under 40,000. Total violent crimes from over 200,000 per year to under 100,000.

Maybe stop and frisk had zero impact. But obviously in aggregate, the things he did, helped. Why in Gods name would we willfully choose to ignore that, because we don't like the party he is affiliated with?

We would all (conservatives included) do well to put ideology aside, focus on results. Look at what has worked, and do more of that. Look at what doesn't work, and stop doing it. Why is that so hard?

https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

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Old 05-26-2022, 01:45 PM   #60
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If the cops weren't doing anything else at that specific time, removing 715 illegally carried guns in one year, seems like a worthwhile use of time. Until the bad guys start wearing signs that announce their intentions, unfortunately we need to cast the net pretty wide. What's a more efficient way to get illegal guns of the street? Ask criminals to pretty please turn themselves in? Chicago and DC in recent past had very tough restrictions on gun ownership, did that help gun crime more than the things Rudy did?

Put stop and frisk, specifically, aside. Did murder rates drop meaningfully during Rudy's tenure Paul? Did he do a great job with violent crime? In the 5-6 years begore Rudy was sworn in, NYC had about 2500 murders a year. By the time he left, it was under 1,000 a year. Rapes went from 5,000 per year to 3,500. Robberies from over 100,000 per year to under 40,000. Total violent crimes from over 200,000 per year to under 100,000.

Maybe stop and frisk had zero impact. But obviously in aggregate, the things he did, helped. Why in Gods name would we willfully choose to ignore that, because we don't like the party he is affiliated with?

We would all (conservatives included) do well to put ideology aside, focus on results. Look at what has worked, and do more of that. Look at what doesn't work, and stop doing it. Why is that so hard?

https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
Murder (and all crimes) dropped across the whole US - not only in NY. Rates started to fall before stop and frisk and continued to fall after S&F was stopped. Criminologist argue over the reasons with probably 10 -15 being listed. Some that people agreed on previously have been called into question. One that is lately getting more study is the decrease in lead in gas. There is/was no smoking gun that is an answer.
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