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Old 02-23-2018, 10:29 PM   #91
Sea Dangles
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If they can't prevent such a happening,what do you think could given the current restrictions?
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:31 PM   #92
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Multi-tasking.

I almost changed couldn't to wouldn't but thought it was pretty much the same thing considering it was his sworn duty.
Can you think of a fairer word than coward?
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:19 PM   #93
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Ok, got it. Can you provide evidence that armed persons would prevent mass shootings? There are at least two cases where armed persons at schools didn't, let alone assassinations by snipers, etc.
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The article I linked gave examples of mass shootings that were either prevented or ended before more could have been shot. For some, that is evidence that, under similar circumstances, many, if not most, mass shootings would either be prevented or cut short. For you, that is not evidence.

BTW, even a sniper was foiled from further damage in that Republican baseball game in June 1917 by two armed guards using hand guns.

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Old 02-23-2018, 11:29 PM   #94
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If they can't prevent such a happening,what do you think could given the current restrictions?
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I think the point that gun-controllers would make is that the only thing that would totally prevent mass shootings would be the outlawing of rifle or pistol semi- automatic guns--actually the ELIMINATION of such guns or even other guns since criminals would not be stopped from getting guns merely by making them illegal.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:42 AM   #95
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I think the point that gun-controllers would make is that the only thing that would totally prevent mass shootings would be the outlawing of rifle or pistol semi- automatic guns--actually the ELIMINATION of such guns or even other guns since criminals would not be stopped from getting guns merely by making them illegal.
Gun control does not equal Prevention of Crime no more than a only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy can stop Mass shootings

people think Family values are to Blame and use the past as examples
but leave out what was missing (the availability of weapons and how differently they were marketed )


current / 1950
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:02 AM   #96
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Gun control does not equal Prevention of Crime no more than a only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy can stop Mass shootings

people think Family values are to Blame and use the past as examples
but leave out what was missing (the availability of weapons and how differently they were marketed )


current / 1950
Handguns can be used quite effectively in mass shootings, ask major Hassan and the 13 families of his victims. Handguns were available back in the heyday if family values, yet mass shootings didn’t happen with this regularity.

It’s not just family values, and I never said it was. That’s one piece. Availability of sexy looking guns is another, guns whose loooks fuel the dark fantasies of a very small number of very sick people. Mental health issues, the internet, crappy parenting, lack of religion. And the violence we bombard our kids with, all play into it. And you’d have to be next generation thoughtless, to truly believe that trained, armed guards wouldn’t help just because of a recent failure. Reagan was shot in 1980, and no one was silly enough to say we don’t need the secret service.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:34 AM   #97
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I have to laugh at the blatant stupidity that gets shared here. Wayne,is your implication that the president of the country should not have armed security because Reagan got shot? Or is this more ramblings from the lunatic fringe? Perhaps they should just hug it out and make them promise not to shoot again.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:52 AM   #98
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I have to laugh at the blatant stupidity that gets shared here. Wayne,is your implication that the president of the country should not have armed security because Reagan got shot? Or is this more ramblings from the lunatic fringe? Perhaps they should just hug it out and make them promise not to shoot again.
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Correct, they are saying that because having armed guards isn't 100% foolproof, that it's therefore not a good idea. Perfect is now the enemy of good.

No one idea is fool-proof. Gun control sure as hell isn't.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:04 AM   #99
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Correct, they are saying that because having armed guards isn't 100% foolproof, that it's therefore not a good idea. Perfect is now the enemy of good.
I think you're reading that completely wrong.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:10 AM   #100
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Spence and Wayne, it's easy to be an armchair quarterback in situations like this,but seriously, instead of mocking Trump what would be your suggestions in how this can realistically be fixed? Obama had 8 years as president,what improvements did he make that made you feel safer?
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:18 AM   #101
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Why is it the responsibility of the POTUS to stop mass shootings?
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:56 AM   #102
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For you, that is not evidence.
No, it is that I didn't see your link. You tend to write so often and so much nonsense that I typically skim or skip your posts. My bad. Thanks for the evidence.
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No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:18 PM   #103
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No, it is that I didn't see your link. You tend to write so often and so much nonsense that I typically skim or skip your posts. My bad. Thanks for the evidence.
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Lmao !!!
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:39 PM   #104
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I have to laugh at the blatant stupidity that gets shared here. Wayne,is your implication that the president of the country should not have armed security because Reagan got shot? Or is this more ramblings from the lunatic fringe? Perhaps they should just hug it out and make them promise not to shoot again.
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No my implication is as it always been there are many parts to this problem. . Trump's is on the side of whom ever his audience is at the time
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:57 PM   #105
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Spence and Wayne, it's easy to be an armchair quarterback in situations like this,but seriously, instead of mocking Trump what would be your suggestions in how this can realistically be fixed? Obama had 8 years as president,what improvements did he make that made you feel safer?
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I think there's a lot you could do. Ensure schools have the proper security mechanisms so shooters can't get in, police guards, make high velocity weapons like the Ar-15 much harder to buy, integration of background checks with other data systems, Congressional appropriations to actually collect good data to study the issues including making it a requirement for states to pass data to the feds, better health studies on the impact of violence in media, buy backs etc... etc....not all of this is easy to implement I understand.

The 2ndA doesn't need to be repealed, people can still have plenty of guns for self protection and sport. You may not be able to get them immediately and there may be some that are really hard to get. But we can be doing a hell of a lot more than we are now.

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Old 02-24-2018, 04:00 PM   #106
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No argument here, but using your logic the police guard idea is bad because of the coward who refused to do his job.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:08 PM   #107
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No argument here, but using your logic the police guard idea is bad because of the coward who refused to do his job.
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Trump called him a coward not me. Police guards could still be effective if you can ensure there's limited modes of ingress. I know I can't get into my kids schools without being buzzed in through the front door. Not sure how the FL shooter managed to get inside.

The other thing to do is not treat all gun violence as the same. Suicides aren't the same as gang violence as mass shootings. We need to compartmentalize the issues for what they are and address accordingly.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:24 PM   #108
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It's not bad logic that says it's a bad idea to arm teachers it's actual data that makes the suggestion . And even trained officers have their challenges. Linear, thinking needs to change

The FBI’s analysis of active shooters between 2000 and 2013 has another relevant data point: “Law enforcement suffered casualties in 21 (46.7%) of the 45 incidents where they engaged the shooter to end the threat.” These are people trained to do this kind of thing full time, and nearly half were wounded or killed.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:39 PM   #109
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It's not bad logic that says it's a bad idea to arm teachers it's actual data that makes the suggestion . And even trained officers have their challenges. Linear, thinking needs to change
I read that the NYPD did a study and found even their own officers only hit their targets 18% of the time during real incidents.
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Old 02-24-2018, 05:40 PM   #110
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Trump called him a coward not me. Police guards could still be effective if you can ensure there's limited modes of ingress. I know I can't get into my kids schools without being buzzed in through the front door. Not sure how the FL shooter managed to get inside.

The other thing to do is not treat all gun violence as the same. Suicides aren't the same as gang violence as mass shootings. We need to compartmentalize the issues for what they are and address accordingly.
Jeff,any person leaving your sons school would most likely hold the door open for an intruder. Getting in is most likely easy for anybody with the desire. If you use your common sense you will conclude that it is not quite as easy as you may think. This pile of #^&#^&#^&#^& got thrown on Trumps lap,let's hope he takes steps to help fix things,unlike his predecessors. It's a problem that warrants broad discussion more than your typical party blame game. I understand the suicide part but how does gang violence differ from mass shootings,isn't the intent the same?
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Old 02-24-2018, 05:52 PM   #111
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Jeff,any person leaving your sons school would most likely hold the door open for an intruder. Getting in is most likely easy for anybody with the desire. If you use your common sense you will conclude that it is not quite as easy as you may think. This pile of #^&#^&#^&#^& got thrown on Trumps lap,let's hope he takes steps to help fix things,unlike his predecessors. It's a problem that warrants broad discussion more than your typical party blame game.
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I've been in that situation many times and nobody has held the door for me or nor have I. Regardless if that's the only entrance and you have an officer or someone inside you have another layer. School start and stop are more open but that's just another facet.

I still don't understand how he was able to enter the building with a long-gun. Lots of layers of failure here but his easy access to the weapon and access to the building seem key alongside the FBI #^&#^&#^&#^& up.
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Old 02-24-2018, 06:15 PM   #112
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I've been in that situation many times and nobody has held the door for me or nor have I. Regardless if that's the only entrance and you have an officer or someone inside you have another layer. School start and stop are more open but that's just another facet.

I still don't understand how he was able to enter the building with a long-gun. Lots of layers of failure here but his easy access to the weapon and access to the building seem key alongside the FBI #^&#^&#^&#^& up.
You are sketchy looking so I am not exactly shocked. But if your wife is getting buzzed into the school and a kid who looks like he is a student runs up behind her to enter while wearing a long coat.......
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:35 PM   #113
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PARKLAND, Fla. — Broward County deputies received at least 18 calls warning them about Nikolas Cruz from 2008 to 2017, including concerns that he "planned to shoot up the school" and other threats and acts of violence before he was accused of killing 17 people at a high school.

The warnings, made by concerned people close to Cruz, came in phone calls to the Broward County Sheriff's Office, records show. At least five callers mentioned concern over his access to weapons, according to the documents. None of those warnings led to direct intervention.

In February 2016, neighbors told police that they were worried he “planned to shoot up the school” after seeing alarming pictures on Instagram showing Cruz brandishing guns.

About two months later, an unidentified caller told police that Cruz had been collecting guns and knives. The caller was “concerned (Cruz) will kill himself one day and believes he could be a school shooter in the making,” according to call details released by the Sheriff's Office.
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:18 AM   #114
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Can we at least agree that a shooter would target a gun free zone before a school that chose to have armed defense?
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:53 AM   #115
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Can we at least agree that a shooter would target a gun free zone before a school that chose to have armed defense?
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I don't think it matters at all. Mass shooters seem to pick their targets because of an emotional connection not because it seems easier. Additionally gun free zones don't mean their are no guns...there are plenty of exemptions.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:59 AM   #116
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Additionally gun free zones don't mean their are no guns...

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brilliant
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:10 AM   #117
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Can we at least agree that a shooter would target a gun free zone before a school that chose to have armed defense?
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Gun free zone have very little to do with how theses people plan their attacks, that's more speculation from the gun lobby .. they are not rational people . I suggest he was familiar with the school and they expelled him and how he gained access he fit in he used the same thing when he left most kill out of anger and they possibility of death isn't a much of a factor

It will be interesting once the investigation concludes how much was planned and how much was spontaneous . Seeing he's sadly alive to talk to investigators.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:28 AM   #118
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[QUOTE=scottw;1138130]PARKLAND, Fla. — Broward County deputies received at least 18 calls warning them about Nikolas Cruz from 2008 to 2017, including concerns that he "planned to shoot up the school" and other threats and acts of violence before he was accused of killing 17 people at a high school.

The warnings, made by concerned people close to Cruz, came in phone calls to the Broward County Sheriff's Office, records show. At least five callers mentioned concern over his access to weapons, according to the documents. None of those warnings led to direct intervention.

In February 2016, neighbors told police that they were worried he “planned to shoot up the school” after seeing alarming pictures on Instagram showing Cruz brandishing guns.

About two months later, an unidentified caller told police that Cruz had been collecting guns and knives. The caller was “concerned (Cruz) will kill himself one day and believes he could be a school shooter in the making,” according to call details released by the Sheriff's

The NRA and 2nd supporters would have pitched a fit if they took his guns over instargram, or Internet posts yelling confiscation or FREEDOM of speech. .. they are now blaming everyone else . To insulate them from the laws they supported which gave assistance and legal standing for Cruz to have what he had .... law enforcement was toothless until he committed a crime ...
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:31 AM   #119
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The NRA and 2nd supporters would have pitched a fit if they took his guns over instargram, or Internet posts yelling confiscation or FREEDOM of speech. .....
ummmm....no
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:40 AM   #120
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In Ms. Deschamps’s 911 call, she told the dispatcher that Mr. Cruz already had about eight guns that he kept at a friend’s house and that he had just been thrown out of the house after the tantrum in which he punched the walls, hurled things around her home and got into a fight with Rock, her 22-year-old son.

“He got pissed off and then he came in the house and started banging all the doors and banging in the walls and hitting the walls and throwing everything in the room,” she said. “And then my son got in there and he said, ‘Stop it,’ and he didn’t want to stop.”

She added: “It’s not the first time he put a gun on somebody’s head.” Ms. Deschamps made it clear that her new houseguest was obsessed with firearms and had threatened both his mother and his brother. “That’s all he wants is his gun,” she said. “And that’s all he cares about is his gun. He bought tons of bullets and stuff and I took it away from him.”
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