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Old 06-20-2018, 12:14 PM   #1
Jim in CT
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Immigration hysteria

I would truly like to know if it's a new thing that kids are being separated form their parents as a result of immigration enforcement, or if what's new is the liberal outrage.

Here is an article from the Huffington Post, heretofore not considered to be a right-wing rag. The article says that in 2013 alone, we deported more than 72,000 parents who claim they had kids born in the US.

Most of the deported parents had been convicted of a crime, but more than 10,000 had not. 10,000 families split up in one year, where no crime was alleged other than the immigration status.

If Trump is Hitler for separating kids from parents, where was the outrage in 2013? The article says Obama was getting some pressure not to split up families, but it didn't refer to Obama as Hitler, the left didn't go berserk.

Is there a meaningful distinction between what Obama did in 2013, and what Trump is doing now? In both cases, children were separated from parents, for the sole reason that the parents weren't legally allowed to be here.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...n_5531552.html
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:25 PM   #2
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Is there a meaningful distinction between what Obama did in 2013, and what Trump is doing now?
Read your article again.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:33 PM   #3
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Read your article again.
Well if that gripping analytical insight doesn't clarify things for you Jim, I don't know what else will

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Old 06-20-2018, 12:55 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
I would truly like to know if it's a new thing that kids are being separated form their parents as a result of immigration enforcement, or if what's new is the liberal outrage.

Here is an article from the Huffington Post, heretofore not considered to be a right-wing rag. The article says that in 2013 alone, we deported more than 72,000 parents who claim they had kids born in the US.

Most of the deported parents had been convicted of a crime, but more than 10,000 had not. 10,000 families split up in one year, where no crime was alleged other than the immigration status.

If Trump is Hitler for separating kids from parents, where was the outrage in 2013? The article says Obama was getting some pressure not to split up families, but it didn't refer to Obama as Hitler, the left didn't go berserk.

Is there a meaningful distinction between what Obama did in 2013, and what Trump is doing now? In both cases, children were separated from parents, for the sole reason that the parents weren't legally allowed to be here.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...n_5531552.html
Since Sessions admitted the current administration changed the policy as a deterrent and Trump has said that they will continue until they get the result “a wall” and is using them as a political pawn, yes there is a difference.
The article says other things about the 10K that you don’t mention
I hear some rumblings that they may walk this back soon.
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:10 PM   #5
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I didn't read the article but it is my understanding that children were not separated from the their parents like they are now. I read a 8 month child has been separated. I think it is an embarassment and shows no morals in using babies as pawns. Cory Lewendowski's attitude is indicative of the type of people in this admin.

That said, I don't disagree w/what Sessions said about amnesty a week or so ago in that it wasn't intented for spousal abuse for example. Unfortunately, with this admin. I think there is a racial element to this as well as many of their policies.
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:15 PM   #6
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Well if that gripping analytical insight doesn't clarify things for you Jim, I don't know what else will
With the level of detail he included, it's impossible for me not to be persuaded by his argument.

You can't even ask an honest question these days, which is truly what I was trying to do. I just want to know what the difference is, and why the outrage didn't exist then.
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:18 PM   #7
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I didn't read the article but it is my understanding that children were not separated from the their parents like they are now. I read a 8 month child has been separated. I think it is an embarassment and shows no morals in using babies as pawns. Cory Lewendowski's attitude is indicative of the type of people in this admin.

That said, I don't disagree w/what Sessions said about amnesty a week or so ago in that it wasn't intented for spousal abuse for example. Unfortunately, with this admin. I think there is a racial element to this as well as many of their policies.
"I didn't read the article but it is my understanding that children were not separated from the their parents like they are now. "

The article says that in 2013, 72,000 illegals who were already here, were separated from their kids, and deported. That's from The Huffington Post, so it's fair to assume it wasn't a hit piece on Obama. Maybe that's not exactly the same as separating kids who arrive with their parents at the border, but in both cases, kids and parents were forcibly separated.

"with this admin. I think there is a racial element to this as well as many of their policies"

Not sure about that.
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:20 PM   #8
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Since Sessions admitted the current administration changed the policy as a deterrent and Trump has said that they will continue until they get the result “a wall” and is using them as a political pawn, yes there is a difference.
The article says other things about the 10K that you don’t mention
I hear some rumblings that they may walk this back soon.
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"Since Sessions admitted the current administration changed the policy as a deterrent "

And Obama did it to families that were already here. So Obama's policy was designed to target people who were already here, Trump's policy is designed to target people trying to get in. I agree the goal is different. The result - kids being taken away from their parents - is the same, as far as I can tell. I am hearing it's wrong to take kids away from parents. Obama did that.
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:13 PM   #9
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From what I read there is a severe labor shortage of skilled and mid level workers, which is only going to get worse. Isolation for the world and our neighbors isn’t going to solve it and for Trump to use kids as ransom to get his fing Wall isn’t going to help him support the 4% growth he predicts will happen.

I’m all for proper vetting, but this now has become just political BS and these kids are just pawns in his ongoing chess game.

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Old 06-20-2018, 02:34 PM   #10
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Rumbling was correct.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:03 PM   #11
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but in both cases, kids and parents were forcibly separated.
That's not what your article says.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:23 PM   #12
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I know - where was the coordinated outrage mob in 2013, 2014?

(BTW - I am against separating the families as I am against illegal immigration - fix immigration laws, enforce those laws, and allow more through the front door LEGALLY).


This outrage mob is the same coordinated bullet-point-knee-jerk-talking-points reaction that was the post Parkland Anti-NRA coordinated bullet-point-knee-jerk-talking-points. I wonder what August's coordinated bullet-point-knee-jerk-talking-point will be??

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Old 06-20-2018, 03:26 PM   #13
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This outrage mob is the same coordinated bullet-point-knee-jerk-talking-points reaction that was the post Parkland Anti-NRA coordinated bullet-point-knee-jerk-talking-points. I wonder what August's coordinated bullet-point-knee-jerk-talking-point will be??
Yea, the Pope, Laura Bush, the entire United Methodist clergy...that mob?
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:49 PM   #14
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I think if folks don't want to be separated from their kids they should not come here illegally.
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Old 06-20-2018, 05:08 PM   #15
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That's not what your article says.
“Children born in the U.S. are given automatic citizenship, regardless of their parents’ immigration status, and a 2013 report by Human Impact Partners estimated that 4.5 million U.S. citizen children have at least one parent who is undocumented. When a parent is deported, their U.S.-born children sometimes leave with them. But some stay in the U.S. with another parent or family member. Some children end up in U.S. foster care.”

This......and the title of the article
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Old 06-20-2018, 05:15 PM   #16
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Yea, the Pope, Laura Bush, the entire United Methodist clergy...that mob?



No the outrage mob - but come to think of it - I don't recall them screaming when Obama era rules were doing it - not like today.

I cracked up (well would have if the topic was less horrible) watching NBC playing the religious card today.

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Old 06-20-2018, 05:28 PM   #17
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“Children born in the U.S. are given automatic citizenship, regardless of their parents’ immigration status, and a 2013 report by Human Impact Partners estimated that 4.5 million U.S. citizen children have at least one parent who is undocumented. When a parent is deported, their U.S.-born children sometimes leave with them. But some stay in the U.S. with another parent or family member. Some children end up in U.S. foster care.”

This......and the title of the article
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So what you’re saying is the kids aren’t forceable separated and the parents are given a choice? They would have time to try and place kids with family? It also notes the US Gov would help with paperwork if the parent wanted to take the child with them.

Big, huge difference.
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Old 06-20-2018, 05:31 PM   #18
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No the outrage mob - but come to think of it - I don't recall them screaming when Obama era rules were doing it - not like today.
Because it wasn’t like today. Under Obama the policy wasn’t perfect but they were prioritizing deportations not weaponzing children.

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Old 06-20-2018, 05:31 PM   #19
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Yeah, kids always trot off to foster care all smiles and sunshine
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:18 PM   #20
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again facts matter

There is no federal law that stipulates that children and parents be separated at the border, no matter how families entered the United States. An increase in child detainees separated from parents stemmed directly from a change in enforcement policy repeatedly announced by Sessions in April and May 2018, under which adults (with or without children) are criminally prosecuted for attempting to enter the United States:


And now Trump created the issue(blamed others) and now he gives himself credit for fixing the issue he created

we didn't even separate kids in the Japanese interment camps ... no one is saying dont stop people crossing illegally or dont detain Them ... the argument that their parents are putting them in Danger is weak compared to where they came from.... They are taking huge risks to improve their children's future and their own.. You cant fault them for trying .. would any of us do any less if we were backed in a corner or in their shoes ???
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:13 PM   #21
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It is our responsibility to protect our borders,you can't fault us for that. Discouraging people from attempting to enter illegally is in our best interests.
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:15 PM   #22
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It is our responsibility to protect our borders,you can't fault us for that. Discouraging people from attempting to enter illegally is in our best interests.
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Those Indians had the right idea back in the day, eh?
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:46 PM   #23
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Fire water
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:29 PM   #24
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again facts matter

There is no federal law that stipulates that children and parents be separated at the border, no matter how families entered the United States.

There is no federal law that stipulates children and parents cannot be separated at the border.

An increase in child detainees separated from parents stemmed directly from a change in enforcement policy repeatedly announced by Sessions in April and May 2018, under which adults (with or without children) are criminally prosecuted for attempting to enter the United States:

AN INCREASE (meaning that it was done before at a lesser rate) was created by a change in enforcement policy (because past policy was not effective enough and there was a big rise in attempts to illegally enter).

And now Trump created the issue(blamed others) and now he gives himself credit for fixing the issue he created

No, he didn't create an "issue." The "issue" was manufactured by media hype trying to make Trump look evil. And the "issue" of large numbers of illegal immigrants existed long before Trump. The illegals themselves created that "issue." There was no serious, sincere, attempt to fix that "issue." Announcing a zero tolerance policy was a serious, sincere, attempt to let it be known that there would be harsh consequences to trying to illegally cross the border. Those who ignored that warning stirred up that old "issue." Schumer demanded that Trump fix the new hyped up issue with an executive order. So Trump did fix the optics "issue" with an executive order, but that ain't good enough for you. Nothing that Trump does is.

we didn't even separate kids in the Japanese interment camps

The whole idea of the Japanese internment camps was wrong. Comparing the prosecution of illegal immigrants to the internment of American citizens without due process, whether the children are separated or not, is stupid. But law breakers who are actually American citizens and are, even temporarily put in detention, are separated from their children--without a fuss from the media or the Democrats.

... no one is saying dont stop people crossing illegally or dont detain Them ... the argument that their parents are putting them in Danger is weak compared to where they came from.... They are taking huge risks to improve their children's future and their own.. You cant fault them for trying

I fault them for going about it the wrong way. And putting themselves and their children in danger while doing so, and disregarding what would happen at the border.

And if you agree that people should be stopped from crossing illegally and that they should be detained and sent back when they try, then what kind, nice, humane way would you do that? That is, what way that actually worked, that actually would deter them from trying?


.. would any of us do any less if we were backed in a corner or in their shoes ???
Well, going up against a zero tolerance policy is backing yourself and your kids into a corner. Not joining forces with the majority of people in your country in order to stop being oppressed by your government or your criminals is surely backing yourself into a corner. Expecting the rest of the world to fix your problems is backing yourself into a corner. Not seeking asylum in the first country you enter after exiting yours (into Mexico from rest of Latin America), breaking the asylum law, is backing yourself into a corner.

Joining millions to illegally enter a country, expecting open loving arms and the gift of education, healthcare, income, at the expense of that countries citizens, while refusing to join together with those millions to make a better life in your home country is not only backing yourself into a corner, but is depriving the rest of your fellow citizens whom you leave behind from creating a better life for all.

As you say, facts matter.

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Old 06-21-2018, 06:11 AM   #25
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Because it wasn’t like today. Under Obama the policy wasn’t perfect but they were prioritizing deportations not weaponzing children.
The article I posted ( if you read it), says that in 2013 alone, if the 70,000 parents separated from their kids, more than 10,000 had not been accused of any crimes.

So how were they “prioritized” before being separated from their children? You are pathetically, desperately, trying to differentiate between the two.
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:12 AM   #26
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again facts matter

There is no federal law that stipulates that children and parents be separated at the border, no matter how families entered the United States. An increase in child detainees separated from parents stemmed directly from a change in enforcement policy repeatedly announced by Sessions in April and May 2018, under which adults (with or without children) are criminally prosecuted for attempting to enter the United States:


And now Trump created the issue(blamed others) and now he gives himself credit for fixing the issue he created

we didn't even separate kids in the Japanese interment camps ... no one is saying dont stop people crossing illegally or dont detain Them ... the argument that their parents are putting them in Danger is weak compared to where they came from.... They are taking huge risks to improve their children's future and their own.. You cant fault them for trying .. would any of us do any less if we were backed in a corner or in their shoes ???
You missed the point. The point was, under Obama kids were also separated from their parents, and people like you and Spence didn’t go berserk, Rachael Maddie didn’t sob on live TV. How come?
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:31 AM   #27
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The article I posted ( if you read it), says that in 2013 alone, if the 70,000 parents separated from their kids, more than 10,000 had not been accused of any crimes.

So how were they “prioritized” before being separated from their children? You are pathetically, desperately, trying to differentiate between the two.
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"Crimes" Jim. Being in the country illegally isn't a crime. There were other criteria being used to prioritize deportations as your article describes.
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:37 AM   #28
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"Crimes" Jim. Being in the country illegally isn't a crime. There were other criteria being used to prioritize deportations as your article describes.
One. Last. Time.

The Huff Post article said that at least 10,000 people were deported, and separated from their children, for no reason other than being here illegally. The article says they "may have fit other criteria". That's good enough for you, to separate 10,000 kids from their families?

Here is my question - why is that OK, but not what Trump is currently doing? If Trump said the adults "may fit other arrest criteria", you expect us to believe that would satisfy you?
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:45 AM   #29
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One. Last. Time.

The Huff Post article said that at least 10,000 people were deported, and separated from their children, for no reason other than being here illegally.

Here is my question - why is that OK, but not what Trump is currently doing?
They weren't forcibly separated from their children. Policy was to give the parents the option to take their kids or place them with family. Families at the border were charged with civil violations and sent back. It wasn't perfect but it was at least somewhat humane.

Trump is now treating all adults as criminals, forcibly removing babies and kids on the spot and shipping them to detention centers and banning media and politicians to even see what's going on with the children.

Even worse they're doing it for political reasons.

Even worse even worse the Administration lied about the protocol for the last two weeks before finally flipping and caving to pressure.

Situations are quite different Jim, that's why there's condemnation from both sides. We need bi-partisan immigration reform but you're not going to see it under Trump. It would undermine his Presidency.
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:48 AM   #30
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One. Last. Time.

The Huff Post article said that at least 10,000 people were deported, and separated from their children, for no reason other than being here illegally. The article says they "may have fit other criteria". That's good enough for you, to separate 10,000 kids from their families?

Here is my question - why is that OK, but not what Trump is currently doing? If Trump said the adults "may fit other arrest criteria", you expect us to believe that would satisfy you?
One used the children as pawns admittedly for political reasons, claimed they had no choice, that others were making them do it and then said: Oh we can save the children with an executive order, look what I did, hooray for me.

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