Interesting

[RIJIMMY]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/04/beck.iraq/index.html

[buckman]

I think Glen Beck is right on 90% of the time. We can only hope he is on this time as well. Interesting for sure. And bad news for the dems if he is right. Which way do you think Obama is hoping? Interesting.....

[Nebe]

Of course Iraq is fine now. We gotta go into Iran next..You guys haven't got the memo yet? Iraq is fine just fine.. nothing to see here folks move along.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Of course Iraq is fine now. We gotta go into Iran next..You guys haven't got the memo yet? Iraq is fine just fine.. nothing to see here folks move along.

We can all hope it doesn't get to the point we have to go into Iran. I'm sure Obama can talk them out of their nukes. But if he doesn't and Iran starts a nuclear war in the mid east you will blame Bush for not doing enough. It's sad that the Dems have positioned there party as, whats bad for America is good for the Democrats.

[Nebe]

Do you really think anyone would start a nuclear war? Nukes are tools of fear and bartering chips.. nothing more. In the dark ages, Man created gods to make 'the people' live in fear so they could be easily controled... in todays age we live in fear of nuclear war.. It will never happen.. the losses are too great.

We need to get our asses out of the middle east, let isreal take care of themselves and stop s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g off the tit of foreign oil and have a self sustaining energy policy. Who ever is thinking like that is going to get my vote

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Do you really think anyone would start a nuclear war? Nukes are tools of fear and bartering chips.. nothing more. In the dark ages, Man created gods to make 'the people' live in fear so they could be easily controled... in todays age we live in fear of nuclear war.. It will never happen.. the losses are too great.

We need to get our asses out of the middle east, let isreal take care of themselves and stop s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g off the tit of foreign oil and have a self sustaining energy policy. Who ever is thinking like that is going to get my vote

No, these are rational terrorist we have here.But if your wrong....

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Do you really think anyone would start a nuclear war? Nukes are tools of fear and bartering chips.. nothing more. In the dark ages, Man created gods to make 'the people' live in fear so they could be easily controled... in todays age we live in fear of nuclear war.. It will never happen.. the losses are too great.

Don't like to get into this crap but I gotta say this: Are ya nuts?

When you believe god gives you permission...anything is possible.ANYTHING.Tools of fear you say but won't ever be used?This isn't the cold war.These people don't fear nuclear war,if anything they may very well may be living for it.Give a jihadist a nuke and the means to deliver it and he WILL use it.Losses don't matter to these people.Dark ages...the middleast is living theirs' right now.

Nebe I like and respect you but your statement is without a doubt one of the most naive ever made.Ever.You would try to tell me that if Al-Queda,Hamas etc. got a hold of a viable nuclear warhead and the means to deliver it that they would not use it out of fear of nuclear war?If you expect me to believe that you are nuts bro.And I only say nuts if that's what you expect me to believe.

I would end this with the statement that I don't base my beliefs on politics in any way shape or form but simply on an open-eye,realistic view of our planet and its people.

[buckman]

I wasn't confusing the two..but thanks for setting be straight..I'm sure we'll all feel better when New York becomes inhabitable. And yet why don't they like us? Jealosy, our God is not theirs, I guess the Taliban were very understanding of other cultures, We do more good in the world then any other country and yet I never here some of the America haters mention that. like I said.... pathetic

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I wasn't confusing the two..but thanks for setting be straight..I'm sure we'll all feel better when New York becomes inhabitable. And yet why don't they like us? Jealosy, our God is not theirs, I guess the Taliban were very understanding of other cultures, We do more good in the world then any other country and yet I never here some of the America haters mention that. like I said.... pathetic

A dirty bomb woudn't make New York inhabitable, and I'm not sure the point of the Taliban reference, but it's pretty clear why we were attacked.

You seem to be very confused as to what's really what in the world. Perhaps that's why everything looks pathetic?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

A dirty bomb woudn't make New York inhabitable, and I'm not sure the point of the Taliban reference, but it's pretty clear why we were attacked.

You seem to be very confused as to what's really what in the world. Perhaps that's why everything looks pathetic?

-spence

Enlighten me . Why were we attacked? It's always good to hear from someone who has such a grasp on the reality of a bunch of murdering cowards.I can't even fathom being able to undestand that mentallity. Enlighten us, What was going through their heads as they crashed those planes?

Everything isn't pathetic to me. Just the way you people are always condemning America first. Blame us for being attacked. I'm guessing you didn't feel that way on 9/10 or on 9/11

[Joe]

I would not call the jihadists cowards - they are formidable and willing to lay down their lives without question.
Moreover, they are waging war against the U.S. the only way it can waged: unconventionally, through terrorist tactics.
Terror is the only option to anyone who wishes to confront the U.S. militarily. To confront the modern U.S. military head on using traditional military tactics - is suicidal. If you line up your troops in places where we can get a GPS fix them, then you end up like Iraq's Republican Guard: dead on day one.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Enlighten me . Why were we attacked? It's always good to hear from someone who has such a grasp on the reality of a bunch of murdering cowards.I can't even fathom being able to undestand that mentallity. Enlighten us, What was going through their heads as they crashed those planes?

Everything isn't pathetic to me. Just the way you people are always condemning America first. Blame us for being attacked. I'm guessing you didn't feel that way on 9/10 or on 9/11

We were attacked because a group well financed militant Muslims felt the US was:

1) Behind the Saudi Royal Family who's been very oppressive of their own people (Muslims)
2) Supporting Isreal who's oppressing Palestinian Muslims
3) Ignoring Russia who's oppressing Chechen Muslims
4) Militarily positioned on holy ground

al Qaeda believes the US is the primary hurdle to the establishment of a true Islamic state (in their eyes) and so 9/11 was another in a series of attacks over the past decade to try to get us to but out of the Middle East.

It's really that simple, it's all about our foreign policy. Not because we can have our fries "super sized" and let gay people get hitched.

Bin Laden's indictment of the USA contains a lot of truths, and as such it's been fairly easy for him to gather support from the moderate Islamic base.

To assess reasons why our policy has hurt us is a pragmatic and reasonable action. Perhaps with hindsight we would have done some things differently, and perhaps some of our choices have ultimately let to a net gain for the US and even the World as a whole.

But to call this "blaming America" is really ignoring reality and is simply foolish.

There should be no place for divisive election rhetoric in a real policy discussion, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the current GOP and Administration have done a hundred times over in seek of a permanent republican majority.

And Joe is right, these guys were not cowards. Once again a statement meant only to distract from the real issues.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

We were attacked because a group well financed militant Muslims felt the US was:

1) Behind the Saudi Royal Family who's been very oppressive of their own people (Muslims)
2) Supporting Isreal who's oppressing Palestinian Muslims
3) Ignoring Russia who's oppressing Chechen Muslims
4) Militarily positioned on holy ground

al Qaeda believes the US is the primary hurdle to the establishment of a true Islamic state (in their eyes) and so 9/11 was another in a series of attacks over the past decade to try to get us to but out of the Middle East.

It's really that simple, it's all about our foreign policy. Not because we can have our fries "super sized" and let gay people get hitched.

Bin Laden's indictment of the USA contains a lot of truths, and as such it's been fairly easy for him to gather support from the moderate Islamic base.

To assess reasons why our policy has hurt us is a pragmatic and reasonable action. Perhaps with hindsight we would have done some things differently, and perhaps some of our choices have ultimately let to a net gain for the US and even the World as a whole.

But to call this "blaming America" is really ignoring reality and is simply foolish.

There should be no place for divisive election rhetoric in a real policy discussion, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the current GOP and Administration have done a hundred times over in seek of a permanent republican majority.

And Joe is right, these guys were not cowards. Once again a statement meant only to distract from the real issues.

-spence

And they don't oppress their own? They kill other Muslims for not following their version of Islam. The Talban weren't oppressive? How about Saddam, was he oppressive? So we should cave in to Bin Laden and do what he wants us to do? Everyone knows how to sprinkle some truths into an arguement to sound like your correct. Thats what I do.

I think what they do, Strapping bombs on young,kids and women is cowardly. I think boarding a plane and crashing it into a building is cowardly.I think hiding in a cave and letting your group membrs blow them selfs up all over the world to proof a point that you want to make is cowardly. These people have nothing else and that is why they join with the terrorist. Just like the gangs in America. Most of them just do what their told. For 72 virgins, real rational..

[RIJIMMY]

I think its funny that Spence beleives that Bin Laden is fighting for "opressed" people.
He is fighting for his "god given" right to oppress others based interpretations of his religion. He wants to oppress women, free speech, education, trade, culture, etc. I agree with your reasons for 9/11, but you leave out the US reasons for creating those situtaions. We have interests and allies we need to protect.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I think its funny that Spence beleives that Bin Laden is fighting for "opressed" people.
He is fighting for his "god given" right to oppress others based interpretations of his religion. He wants to oppress women, free speech, education, trade, culture, etc. I agree with your reasons for 9/11, but you leave out the US reasons for creating those situtaions. We have interests and allies we need to protect.

I'm not trying to justify US policy, much of which is easy to justify. But a direct or indirect result of much of that policy has been suffering, this is impossible to deny.

Here's the key.

America being the root cause of the suffering isn't the issue, rather it's that we stand in the way of fundamentalist Muslims ability to solve the problems in their chosen manner, namely to eastablish an Islamic state.

If you get hung up on the fact that militant fundamentalists are often oppressers themselves, you loose sight of the motive!

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

America being the root cause of the suffering isn't the issue, rather it's that we stand in the way of fundamentalist Muslims ability to solve the problems in their chosen manner, namely to eastablish an Islamic state.

-spence

You're right, we shouldnt have stood in the way of the establishment of the Ariyan nation either, Let them solve their own problems

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

You're right, we shouldnt have stood in the way of the establishment of the Ariyan nation either, Let them solve their own problems

You're obviously having some difficulty thinking critically.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

You're having some difficulty thinking.

[spence]

No, that comes quite easily.

What's hard is to fully fathom the complexity of some of our challenges. This isn't as simple as good vs evil.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

\ This isn't as simple as good vs evil.

-spence

sure it is.. bush said so. they are the "evil doers" and we are "the good guys"


At least hitler was a good public speaker. What we have now is a lunatic who cant pronounce 'nuclear'

[WoodyCT]

NO! Our human created god and the associated religions will never allow it.

NO! We, the USA, have taken it upon ourselves to play global cop so that we can help ourselves to the world's resources.

NO! We, the USA, are lead by a political system that disregards the wishes of the common man in favor of big business and its money.

NO! Political instability drives up profits, all be it at the expense of the people who can least afford it.

HATE IS PROFITABLE

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

sure it is.. bush said so. they are the "evil doers" and we are "the good guys"


At least hitler was a good public speaker. What we have now is a lunatic who cant pronounce 'nuclear'

This is the sort of BS that makes any argument you make, suspect and proofs what most people think. Anything you say is based on your hatred of Bush.

[RIJIMMY]

you guys are so misguided its painful. I can't even respond.

I guess the difference is that my paycheck comes from a "big business", you'd rather have one from the governement.
Maybe a little education will help.
Big business provides you with your electricity, your phones, computer, fuel, shipping and discrtibution of your food and supplies, your medical needs, books and entertainment. Big Business is owned in most cases by....shareowners. Shareowners are individuals who own stocks, mutual funds, 401ks, pensions plans (all pension assets have significant assets in stocks). So ultimately big business is owned is some fashion by.... the common man! Now these big profits that are so evil, are funnelled into other investments, of course the big evil profit machine wants more money. So what are these other investments? They are investments in other countries. US investors (or through their pension plans) fund investments in the electricity in Brazil, medicine in Thailand, dam construcion in Indonesia, etc. Where do you think the money comes from? Do these big business invest to make a profit? Yes, but does it have MASSIVE benefit to the world economy, YES.
Now, what else does evil big business do? It pays the majority of the US workforces salary and benefits, either directly or through vendors that rely on the other firms.
So to conclude,
The evil profits of big business fund our retirement plans, fund investment in emerging countries, fund personal investments, fund pensions plans, and ultimatley pay our salaries. Our salaries in turn fund our Fed tax, our local tah, schools etc? Make sense?
So the Dem philosopy of tax, tax, tax, is more efficient. It cuts out the "middle man" and takes the profits and gives them to the governement. In this case, it cuts out any investment in all the things I noted before! It lowers economic growth domestically and internatinally and puts more people in need of government. You dont realize how much the "evil" profits benefit you directly or indirecty.
rant over

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

you guys are so misguided its painful. I can't even respond.

I guess the difference is that my paycheck comes from a "big business", you'd rather have one from the governement.
Maybe a little education will help.

Thanks, I had no idea my 401K was tied to the free market

Who are you directing to this anyway?

-spence

[Nebe]

I dont think anyone said that 'bug business' profits were a bad thing Jim.

The issue is that there is a disconnect from profits, versus pay out.

how much did the CEO of exxon mobile make last year? dont you think that half of that should have gone to dividend payouts?

were all getting screwed by the 1%

[spence]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I dont think anyone said that 'bug business' profits were a bad thing Jim.

The issue is that there is a disconnect from profits, versus pay out.

how much did the CEO of exxon mobile make last year? dont you think that half of that should have gone to dividend payouts?

Yea, but that's just a drop in the bucket.

The oil companies are not evil, and while certainly very profitable their margins are not that far above average.

A windfall profit tax is perhaps one of the Dem's more stupid ideas as it's only going to drive gas prices even higher.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

A windfall profit tax is perhaps one of the Dem's more stupid ideas as it's only going to drive gas prices even higher.

-spence

I agree. If the govt. takes a windfall tax the oil companies will raise prices to make up for it.

The oil companies make approx. 4%/gal and the govt gets 15%/gal, as is.

Let's face it, the higher the price/gal the more $$ the govt. takes in.
The govt. would rather take in 60 cents/gal. at $4.00/gal, than 30 ct. at $2.00/gal.

They got a win /win situation going on us here.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Let's face it, the higher the price/gal the more $$ the govt. takes in.

Additionally the more profit the oil companies make the more revenue is generated in the form of corporate taxes.

I believe Exxon pays something like a 46% tax rate.

-spence

[Joe]

You read, 4% profit and you think, "Well in comparison to other industries, that's really not a profitable business." But the math on that is tricky. You have to take into account the scale of the goods purchased and the amount people spend per year on the product, and the fact that people buy continually as prices rise.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

Lots of unaccounted for billions over there:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7444083.stm

No mention that Halliburton is the only company that can handle most of the work that they are bidding on. We had our own "American Union" unaccounted for billions over here too. It was called the Big Dig.