When did America, go to Hell

[Joe]

When you talk about rise of morality and civility, you're really only referring to a brief slice of American history, roughly 1900-1965 (with timeouts for some major wars) at best.

Even then, this morality and civility were only extended to some white people. It was not a good time to be anything other than a white male. We've always been a wild society prone to violence and greed and the protection of our interests above all else.

[tynan19]

I agree with Clammer.

[justplugit]

Joe, i liked your comments.

I can only comment back to the 40's as that is what i remember. In the 40's and 50's churches couldn't be built fast enough, neighbors knew and helped each other, a man's word was as good as his bond, there was very little divorce,no one would think of suing over minor things, people respected the opinion and advice of older people because they knew they had experienced life.

However, as you mentioned the early 1900s, i do remember reading that the 20s weren't the most moral of times.

Tamminy Hall, Al Capone, prohibition, the speculation and crash of the market. But from what i remember my Dad and many others of that period saying, people were by far ,the salt of the earth and could be trusted. The shaking of a hand was a contract.

The 30s and 40s united the country during the wars, which you mentioned, citizens made personal sacrafices for the sake of freedom.

People would work a full time job, and come at night and work in the war plants. Volunteer for any effort to help. So America had a purpose to defend freedom and still went by a moral compass.

The change i saw, which was very dramatic, between the 60s and 70s ,was the outlook of the country changing from a united purpose to a "me generation". It has never looked back.

You are right, human greed always has, and always will be there. But our morals balance it out. Imho, we need moral beliefs and purposes as individuals and as a country.

As they say, " if you don't believe in something, you fall for anything."

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by striperman36

Just like the Roman's

Where are our Huns?

In the Whitehouse

[Raven]

were completely negative.... except for the ingenuity of southenors

who built stills to make their own... and that created faster and faster rum running cars
to out run the cops which lead us to nascar racing.

the lesson of prohibition were not learned and the agency of the ATF
was formed and they didn't figure out how to make cars to run on alcohol then....
a huge mistake ! now we are back pedaling

instead they just spilled the alcohol onto the ground and polluted the environment ...

they could have begun making bio diesel then but because of the ATF
nobody could make any fuel ..... i just read about a guy who runs his
car on vegetable oil and the government tried to tax him to death...

basterds ....fuel and energy has to come from somewhere...

the hitch hiking bugs alone from imports (on/in containers)
are costing us billions of dollars every year.

[zimmy]

1492

[stripersnipr]

If America is Hell what would you call North Korea, Cuba, Haiti, Somalia and the Sudan?

[Raven]

North korea is the basement in Hell
(but they have movies)
Cuba is the bathroom in the basement in hell
Haiti is the portapotty in the basement in hell (kinda melted)
(actually it's leaning to one side from the heat and it's nearly full)

Somalia is just a french drain pit with dead people floating in it

Sudan is in back of the pit next to the bathroom in the basement of hell

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by Raven

North korea is the basement in Hell
(but they have movies)
Cuba is the bathroom in the basement in hell
Haiti is the portapotty in the basement in hell (kinda melted)
(actually it's leaning to one side from the heat and it's nearly full)

Somalia is just a french drain pit with dead people floating in it


Sudan is in back of the pit next to the bathroom in the basement of hell

[Ed B]

I think society as a whole throughout time is constantly improving. Granted there are ebbs and flows of all sorts of issues across the spectrum but on things of major importance like disease, public health, safety, war fatality, modern society is constantly improving.

There is no comparison between now and a century ago in terms of what we perceive as unacceptable loss on the battlefield. Not just the losses of WWII and WW I, but look at what happened in the Civil War. Americans vs Americans, 10,000- 30,000 dead after a battle and that many more would die from injuries and disentary. Lawlessness everywhere and the furthur back you traveleled in time the worse it was. What is happening now in the third world countries was more common around the planet.

Granted you won't catch me walking through the tough side of an inner city with a lot of cash now, but I don't think there was ever a time when that was a smart thing to do. I am optimistic for the future as I think if you look past the fog of our day to day aggravations we have it better now than ever before.

[slow eddie]

i do agree with the start of the end in the 60's, but for a different reason. i do believe that when the mother had to go to work to make ends meet was the downfall of the family as a unit.look around at all of the kids getting out oof school and going home to a parentless house. there is absolutely no disipline being done to these kids today. see it in my grandkids all the time. just grit my teeth and move on. when was the last time that you saw kids playing ball in a vacant lot without adult supervision of any kind.
politicians really get my goat. 500 lobbiest for the state of r.i. one making 600 large a year. if you believe that there doing what they do to help the common worker, i've got some nice oceanfront propiety in olnyville with a view. my .02

[Raven]

i think Hollywood has alot to do with it... just my .02 cents

all this SICKO glamourization is taking it's toll
(I just saw this ad that said "we need someone to look up to"
and the movie is about ( i dont know ) another jason flick in the hockey mask P.O.S.

all this special effects serial killing crap ... i detest it all...

although there were terrible murders going on from the sixties onward

i don't recall ever hearing about babies being taken (stolen)from a mothers womb (cut out of her)
while she was still alive
until the last few years...
and i consider that as the holy grail of nastiness...
child pornography should totally be shut down and is more
of a threat than terrorism imo to the average american
and shouldn't be protected by the first amendment at all imo

the ten year old kid that got sentenced in florida for trying to kill
the homeless man... and they are getting that thrill of the kill from TV
or computer games.... it's not a random idea or just decided to do it.
thing................it's copy cat........

["uffah!!"]

Originally Posted by Clammer

When the {white man came here / & f #$%^& the indians & everyother thing in this Country ><><><

THIS IS THE ONLY CORRECT ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[StripinLine]

Nos es Habenae
Nos es hic iuvo vos
Nos teneo quis optimus vobis

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by slow eddie

i do agree with the start of the end in the 60's, but for a different reason. i do believe that when the mother had to go to work to make ends meet was the downfall of the family as a unit.

I see that too as another contributing factor. Imo,Women's Lib was for all the right reasons in allowing women to be equal to men in pay and promotion.

However, i think alot of women took it to the extreme in wanting it all- career,marriage, children, and i'm not so sure in the 60s, women did it to make ends meet as much as wanting to have it all. Today most do it to make ends meet, but man, having to have new cars, flat screen tv, and a million other material things is not making ends meet.

Having been involved in helping to bring up my Grandkids in 2 parent working families i've seen first hand the damages to the family.

Parents getting up 5am to get their kids off to day care, or to their grandparent's, working to 6pm, picking up the kids, cooking, cleaning, getting the kids to bed, getting ready for the next day.

Two ships passing in the night, no time for communication. Then filling alot of nights and weekends with kid's activities and taking them out to dinner to spend time with them.

It's insane, i've seen the frazzled looks and physical exhaustion.
I gotta beleive that pschycotropic drugs are not the second most prescribed drugs for nothing.

Just not the way a family is intended to be.

[Trunky]

Not long after the WHITEMAN stepped on shore

[Swimmer]

Just my two cents, but when parents decided that being a childs best friend/buddy and not a parent, such as they were prior to the 60's, to me is the precursor to todays current problems. This repeal of heavy-handed parenting, and the general relaxation of moral/legal standards within and without the family structure has lead to where we are today. Our government is only a reflection of our current needs and desires. At least in the blue states.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Just my two cents, but when parents decided that being a childs best friend/buddy and not a parent, such as they were prior to the 60's, to me is the precursor to todays current problems.

Boy, i've seen alot of that. One thing everyone needs is boundaries, especially kids.
A parent should be just that,a parent, showing by example what proper and improper behavior is.


Go to any kid's competitive event and see how the parents act on what they consider a bad call.
No restraint, so how are the kids going to act any different?


When parents back the kid with a problem in school rather then the teacher, how do they learn respect?


If they're not taught manners, values and morals in the home, where are they going to learn it?


Imho, i think some parents are afraid if they're not their kid's best friend they won't like them.


It's not about liking, it's about teaching and setting good examples and boundaries to prepare them for life.

[Raven]

the catch phrase

wait til your father comes home

no longer has any meaning....

now a days the kids can just divorce their parents


what the hell is up with that

sad to say this...

but in todays world ...i'm glad i don't have kids.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Raven

the catch phrase

wait til your father comes home

no longer has any meaning....

Ya Rav, and it wasn't because he spanked ya,

although i had more than one sore butt i deserved ,

it was because he demanded and got respect.

[ROCKFISH]

me thinks you need to go back a bit further. it all started in a garden, with a man and a woman and a snake, under a fruit tree. its been downhill ever since.

[Raven]

the fruit was a magic mushroom

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by ROCKFISH

me thinks you need to go back a bit further. it all started in a garden, with a man and a woman and a snake, under a fruit tree. its been downhill ever since.

[Backbeach Jake]

It started going to hell, when we stopped looking one another in the eye and say hello as we pass on the street. Even strangers. It started when kids couldn't play outside after dusk playing hide and seek and catch fireflies, unsupervised. It started when we began being punished for something we MIGHT do and then let off the hook when we DID do it. It started when the first working stiff was let go after 20 years just to keep profits up, not save the company.It started when stores started thinking "who's this arsehole" instead of saying" how can I help you today?" It started with pictures on the cash registers instead of numbers. It started when we the people started accepting injustice, unfairness and just a general lack of care for each other. In my opinion this Country is no more than an echo of what it once aspired to, the idea is still there, we say all the right words, but in reality, we're full of it. Our execution is just lame across the board. My rant for the day..

[spence]

All this bad stuff you guys mention has been around for ever.

Yea, kids can't go out alone...but how much of that is due to increased danger vs paranoia? You don't think there were peds working the streets 50 years ago? Of course there were...but as a society we ignored the topic becuase we couldn't deal with it. Now it's a hot topic, it's our perception that's changed.

Laying off an employee in the name of profit. You don't think this hasn't been going on since the beginning of time?

Wanna go back to a time where the women were kept barefoot, pregnant and uneducated, it was ok for a father to beat his son in the name of dicipline?

I don't.

-spence

[JohnR]

Lots of good & great points here! It has been touched on but I would say the change occurred when parents stopped REALLY teaching their kids right & wrong, honor & respect, cause & effect. I've seen it in my own family growing up, myself, I've seen it with various kids in Day Care to Public Schools.

Everything flows down from childhood. That is the root. How that root is mentored by the family makes a tremendous difference. Sometimes that mentoring is negative because of people, sometimes because of circumstance. But more often than not, bad parenting will turn out a troubled kid and that troubled kid, more often than not, won't be up to snuff in parenting. Sure, some kids "Get it" and change themselves but the trend is probably the other way...

As mentioned many times, the sad lack of respect. Respect for parents, teachers, authority, the law, the environment, learning, etc...

Respect, 9 times out of 10, is developed in one place - at home with the family!

[Swede]

I was born in 1957. We could roam for miles, but had to be home when the streetlights came on. No fear of being dragged into a car and being molested. I loved Matchbox cars and if I got a new one every 2 months I was in Heaven! My Nephew has 100+. I got hit a few times by my Pop and after that all my Mother had to say was do I have to call your father at work?? Time out? what the h@@l is that? If you give your kid a smack now and its reported at school YOU can get arrested! (not that I would'nt have used that to my advantage!). You respected your Parents and other Adults!

IMO Computers, and Video games are the biggest problem.. Molesters can get all the arousal they want from the Net AND find the cities and the neighborhoods where the most children are. Violent video games and video games and general are what kids want to play these days. My 11 year old Nephew just got one of those hand held video games and he would sit all day playing the damn thing if he didn't have a time limit...

Computers were not available, we were outside playing everyday after school, and had a blast!! Computers and Video games have changed the way kids grow up, and not for the better..

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Everything flows down from childhood. That is the root. How that root is mentored by the family makes a tremendous difference.

Absolutely, and today with the divorce rate at 50% and most parents both working the kids get short changed,
not in material things but in one on one quality time.

I know there are alot of guys on this site that work, to be "PC"- mentor, kids. Some work with the Boy Scouts , supporting fishing programs, taking kids fishing, sports programs and i'm sure alot of others.
Alot of these programs allow time to spend with their own kids as well. God bless all of you! I know the ones who do it are rewarded in many ways.

I've been doing volunteer work with kids since the early 70s, alot of one on one, ages 12-17yrs.
The changes i've seen with the kids problems since starting is mind boggling. The things these kids face every day would blow your mind.

When they start to trust you and open up ,you can see what they face and how much guidance they really need. Violence, drugs, family problems right down the line. It's EVERYWHERE.

Best thing any parent can do is spend a complete day in their kids school and see first hand what goes on . Mind opening.



Working with the kids can help some,
but the Absolute best case senario is when they have at least one parent or granparent they can go to who really understands them.

But that person really has to spend ALOT of time listening and getting down in their shoes to begin to understand what they face and go through.

In addition, really understanding and advising, they have to reinforce, "Do the right thing".

[fishpoopoo]

history ebbs and flows.

this country will really be in thet toilet when the something-for-nothing crowd, which wants to put equality before freedom, takes over.

[GonnaCatchABig1]

when MTV started playing nothing but rap and hip hop. and preached great values like "money is everything" "power is everything" "it's ok to kill a few people to get those two". and then forced it down the throats of every middle class kid in the country so they could turn a profit. aka the 90's