NY Times poll shows there's no "war on women", not even close

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I posted that earlier

Here are 2 more:

"Representative Judy Biggert, Republican of Illinois, said, “We should keep our focus on economic growth and jobs, instead of getting sidetracked by issues that divide us.”

Representative Tom Reed, Republican of New York, disagrees with the president’s policy. But he said: “We have clearly staked out our opposition to it. It’s time to move on to other issues, like jobs and the economy.”

First of all, I've never heard of either of these 2, so they're not "leaders of the Republican party". Second of all, neither one of them conceded that there is a war on women.

You said that the Republican leadership views this as a war on women. Nothing you posted even comes close to supporting that.

But I agree, it's crazy to spend so much time talking about consoms, we have bigger issues. But liberals want to focus on this, so that no one is talking about unemployment, debt, or gas prices.

[Jim in CT]

Zimmy and Spence and Likwid...I posted that after the sexual revolution and after the availability of contraception, divorces increased, abortions increased, STD's increased, and kids born out of wedlock increased.

Your response was that rates of those things were also lower when man went to the moon, and before Michael Jackson wrote Thriller.

Most rational folks concede a correlation between the sexual revolution, and those societal ills. Most rational folks concede a correlation between the availability of contraception and the societal ills I mentioned.

I assumed you were theorizing a correlation between space travel and those things I mentioned. I disagree. Now you're making it sound like I'm the one who brought up space travel. I give up...

.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I actually don't know how to respond. It has been entertaining Jim

Zimmy, you, not I, brought up the moon landing.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Most rational folks concede a correlation between the sexual revolution, and those societal ills. Most rational folks concede a correlation between the availability of contraception and the societal ills I mentioned.

Most rational folks understand that STD's used to be rampant.

They also realize that divorce rates have been heavily influenced by women who had no choice but to to stay with their man because they had few employment opportunities on their own...not to mention the stigma of a single woman or single mother.

They also know abortions used to happen unreported, in back alleys and in unregulated facilities.

Do you have any real statistics? I think you're just full of #^&#^&#^&#^&.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I think you're just full of #^&#^&#^&#^&.

-spence

jibberish

noone provides less evidence for their statements than you

I'm worried you are turning into Bill Maher ...or ...Obama where you repeatedly accuse and chastise others for doing things that you will likely be doing minutes from now....

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

noone provides less evidence for their statements than you

Prove it or be silent.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

be silent.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

ohhh....threatening tones now....

-spence[/QUOTE]
Anyone disagree with this? yes....MANY

Regarding the Keyston XL pipeline, it's far from a no-brainer.

3/8/2012 WASHINGTON -- The Senate on Thursday narrowly rejected a GOP provision to fast-track the construction of the Keystone XL crude oil pipeline.

Eleven Democrats bucked President Barack Obama by voting in favor of the amendment. They include Sens. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), Mark Begich (D-Alaska), Kay Hagan (D-N.C.), Mary Landrieu (D-La.), Joe Manchin (D-W. Va.), Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) Mark Pryor (Ark.), Jon Tester (D-Mont.), Jim Webb (D-Va.), Robert Casey (D-Pa.) and Kent Conrad (D-N.D).


“I think we should embrace it and develop a stakeholder-driven system of high standards for doing the work,” Bill Clinton said during remarks at an energy conference in Maryland.

The agency charged with making a formal recommendation regarding the pipeline is the U.S. State Department – which is run by Clinton’s wife, former first lady Hillary Clinton. In issuing its final environmental statement on the project last August, Clinton’s agency concluded that the pipeline would have “no significant impact” on the environment and recommended that it move forward.

Last October, nearly two dozen Democrats led by U.S. Rep. Gene Green (D-Texas) announced their support for the $7 billion project.


Yes, it will create "shovel ready" jobs...but only for 6-12 months. Most of the steel for the project has already been manufactured...in India.
better than Obama's non-existent shovel ready jobs, call it an "investment", not paid for by the taxpayer WAPO Factchecker conclusion "Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle may have legitimate reasons for pushing this project, but they don’t need to oversell it. Imagine if someone actually said: “The company says this project will create an estimated 13,000 construction jobs over two years.”


Transcanada's own research for the US Government indicated the pipeline would actually INCREASE gas prices in the mid-west US and not have any real impact on domestic energy security.

"The line would create a new way to carry Canadian imports outside the Midwest and reduce an oil surplus that’s depressing prices in the central U.S. Spot gasoline was 55 cents cheaper in Chicago than in New York on June 1, the second-highest ever."

you think you are so clever I thought you were FOR redistribution?

"Meanwhile, Clinton said he worries that increased domestic oil and natural gas production could allow many in the U.S. to lose interest in investing in other, newer cleaner forms of energy."

meet the real resistence and the desire for higher prices...call it persuasion

And perhaps worse, the company has already been bullying landowners to sign easements or be sued to have their land taken under eminent domain. there isn't a single MSM report on this which I could locate, you'd think they'd have jumped on this given the attention to bullying and XL these days, would have fit perfectly into the template "BIG OIL BULLYING"..that's got a nice ring

All the Administration asked was for a new route that wouldn't threaten an environmentally sensitive area. Initially they said it would be impossible...then they agreed to do it. "all they were asking for???" gimme a break, that's pathetic, "no matter how imagined"?TransCanada – the company seeking to build the pipeline – first applied for a permit in 2008.


"One of the most amazing things to me about this Keystone pipeline deal is that they ever filed that route in the first place since they could've gone around the Nebraska Sandhills and avoided most of the dangers[/COLOR], no matter how imagined, to the Ogallala [aquifer] with a different route." Bill Clinton.....

huh?..."no matter how imagined"...wonder why he said that? Keystone should have planned for "imagined dangers" when plotting the route?
Read more: Bill Clinton on Keystone XL pipeline: 'Embrace' it - POLITICO.com

If anything, Obama isn't playing politics and is evaluating the cost/benefit tradeoff for the Americans involved. You know where that oil will be going? To refineries in the Gulf Cost where it will be EXPORTED. Obama plays politics with EVERYTHING in case you haven't noticed...it's the "Chicago Way"


-spence[/QUOTE]

love Clinton, he can, as he says, say what he wants now that he's out of office and it might actually contain some truth now....

suggesting that Obama's resistance to the pipeline is anything but political is comical........


so Spence, that was an entire post by you which contained a wealth of claims without anything to back up any it up save for one link that you completely mischaracterized...that's just one post from a prolific poster....imagine the possibilities

probably a bad idea to start your post with...

"Anyone disagree with this?"....especially here

[spence]

I thought you were going to do some homework and present a reasonable case. Perhaps you did but I can't even read your post. I'm guessing not as you don't seem to have found some pretty obvious information...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us...pagewanted=all

Here is a good analysis of Transcanada's misrepresentation on the number of jobs to be created.

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallab...df.pdf#page=13

Yes, they applied in 2008 but environmental concerns persisted especially by people of Nebraska.

They challenged the pipeline...

TransCanada Pipeline Threatened by Proposed Nebraska Re-Routing - Bloomberg

And have worked to get Transcanada to work with the State to mitigate environmental concerns...

Media Advisory - State of Nebraska to Play Major Role in Defining New Keystone XL Route Away From the Sandhills

Obama remarks in denying the fast track legislation by his own words were about the process and not about the merits of the project.

Statement by the President on the Keystone XL Pipeline | The White House

The remarks by Clinton you referenced back up the Whitehouse position that the project needs to be done in a responsible manner.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I thought you were going to do some homework and present a reasonable case. Perhaps you did but I can't even read your post. I'm guessing not as you don't seem to have found some pretty obvious information...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us...pagewanted=all

Here is a good analysis of Transcanada's misrepresentation on the number of jobs to be created.

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallab...df.pdf#page=13

Yes, they applied in 2008 but environmental concerns persisted especially by people of Nebraska.

They challenged the pipeline...

TransCanada Pipeline Threatened by Proposed Nebraska Re-Routing - Bloomberg

And have worked to get Transcanada to work with the State to mitigate environmental concerns...

Media Advisory - State of Nebraska to Play Major Role in Defining New Keystone XL Route Away From the Sandhills

Obama remarks in denying the fast track legislation by his own words were about the process and not about the merits of the project.

Statement by the President on the Keystone XL Pipeline | The White House

The remarks by Clinton you referenced back up the Whitehouse position that the project needs to be done in a responsible manner.

-spence

you've jumped all around with nothing that provides any reason to hold up the pipeline...it's being delayed...and probably killed for purely political and ideaological reasons....pretty sad

WASHINGTON | Fri Nov 11, 2011

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The move to delay a decision on a new oil pipeline from Canada may bolster support among President Barack Obama's liberal-leaning base in 2012 and help offset Republican criticism of his job-creation record.

The State Department said on Thursday it would study a new route for TransCanada Corp's Canada-to-Texas Keystone XL pipeline, delaying a decision to approve or reject until 2013, well after the presidential election in November 2012.

That delay, which came in the wake of large protests by environmentalists, gave Obama and his re-election campaign relief from threats by core supporters they would stay clear of his re-election effort next year.

"Yesterday's announcement ... took a lot of courage and it's that kind of courage that gets people up off the couch, pushes people to go down to campaign offices and volunteer," said Michael Brune, executive director of the Sierra Club environmental group.

The organization, which has 1.4 million members and supporters, said previously a decision in favor of the project would dent enthusiasm among its membership to campaign for the president.

Obama's political advisers took that threat seriously. Although the White House denied that political factors influenced the delay, the outcome reduced concerns the topic would continue making headlines in the middle of a tough re-election campaign.

"He will have to address the issue less, which is what he wants to do," said Hunter College political science professor Kenneth Sherrill.

Labor groups, another key constituency for Obama, a Democrat, were split over Keystone but the issue is unlikely to dent their support for him.

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

you've jumped all around with nothing that provides any reason to hold up the pipeline...it's being delayed...and probably killed for purely political and ideaological reasons....pretty sad

Actually my points were laid out in an organized manner with supporting documentation.

Further...

At the end of last month the Administration approved the southern portion of the pipeline that didn't require State Department approval. This will transport American oil and benefit the economy. He did this at the expense of some left wing support.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/28/sc...e-renewed.html

Your assertion that the pipeline has been killed for ideological reasons has just been evaporated by reality, something you would have known had you put your time in.

Additionally, environmental concerns still remain.

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallab...ine-Spills.pdf

The State Department will need to conclude the new route reduces enough risk, but the project is clearly moving forward...albeit in a responsible manner. Not rushed by Republicans trying to score cheap points.

You should really bone up a little more before getting behind the keyboard.

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

The point being missed is that this oil was being refined here and then on the open market. This wasn't some secret deal w/ Canada that we could buy $100 oil.... it will likely end up in Asia or another market....

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

The point being missed is that this oil was being refined here and then on the open market. This wasn't some secret deal w/ Canada that we could buy $100 oil.... it will likely end up in Asia or another market....

Missed by some, I think I stated it a few times.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

the project is clearly moving forward...-spence

they didn't "approve the southern portion last month", it was already approved but held up by State pending approval of the rest:

The pipeline to which Obama alluded is only being constructed because TransCanada redefined the project to avoid the State Department's regulatory control over the Keystone XL pipeline. "[TransCanada] informed the DOS that what had been the Cushing to U.S. Gulf Coast portion of the Keystone XL Project has its own independent value to the marketplace and will be constructed as a stand-alone Gulf Coast Project, not part of the Presidential Permit process," the company announced two weeks ago.

Obama touts southern half of Keystone pipeline | Campaign 2012 | Washington Examiner


The State Department indicated last month that it would not expedite a review of any new application for the cross-border portion of the pipeline.

this is how you tell people that you approved something while cynically killing it....very Obama like

you should read your own links...P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L


"Opponents mounted two large protests around the White House last year, calling for an end to the project. Mr. Obama tried to finesse the issue by delaying a decision until after the presidential election, but Republicans in Congress forced his hand. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/28/science/earth/keystone-pipeline-permit-request-to-be-renewed.html[/url]






Confusion Surrounds Federal Review of Southern Leg of Keystone XL

Saturday 10 March 2012
by: Lisa Song, InsideClimate News | Report

TransCanada says it has most of the state permits it needs, but no one knows which federal agency will oversee the project's final environmental review.

TransCanada's decision last week to build the southern half of the rejected Keystone XL has raised a tricky question about who will regulate the project review.

The process could be stickier at the federal level. The U.S. State Department was the lead agency on the original Keystone XL because it crossed an international boundary. But so far, no agency has stepped forward to take responsibility for the Gulf Coast Project.

The Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, or PHMSA—a section of the federal Department of Transportation that regulates interstate pipeline safety—will definitely play a role in the review process. But when InsideClimate News asked if PHMSA would lead the project review, we didn't get a direct answer.

"All pipelines must be designed and constructed to meet federal, state and local safety standards," Jeannie Layson, PHMSA's public affairs director, said in a statement. "DOT will help coordinate with federal partners and among state agencies to streamline the process and ensure a safe start to the new pipeline."

Howard said that one of TransCanada's regulatory lawyers has identified the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers as the lead agency.

But Army Corps spokesman Doug Garman said it's too early to speculate on the agency's role. The Army Corps has a responsibility under the Clean Water Act to regulate water permits for pipelines that cross streams and rivers, he said. "[Our] jurisdiction is just for work [concerning] waters of the U.S. and not for the entire pipeline route."

"At the moment, no permit applications have been provided and there have not been conversations with any other federal agencies," Garman told InsideClimate News.

Howard said TransCanada is trying to arrange meetings with the Army Corps to discuss what's needed for the pipeline permits. "It's our hope that we can begin construction this summer, and we're building our plans on that kind of timeframe. But obviously the actual timing depends on certain approvals being in place at certain times."

"At the moment, no permit applications have been provided and there have not been conversations with any other federal agencies," Garman told InsideClimate News.

But TransCanada's Howard said the Gulf Coast Project is a stand-alone pipeline with "its own independent commercial value." The pipeline would help relieve the current glut of oil at Cushing by moving excess crude oil to Texas, where it will be refined.

"We have sufficient contracts in place regardless of what happens" to the northern segment of Keystone XL, Howard said.

Droitsch argues that the Gulf Coast Project needs a comprehensive environmental impact statement, and that it's important to have a lead agency to coordinate the review process.

"If the State Department isn't able to oversee the Gulf Coast segment for obvious reasons, then that does not mean other parts of the Obama administration are off the hook for ensuring compliance with environmental and cultural preservation laws," she said.

The Keystone XL's Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS), published in August, didn't adequately address issues of refinery emissions and pipeline safety, Droitsch said. She also pointed out that the Environmental Protection Agency—which noted significant problems with earlier versions of the EIS—never submitted comments on the final document.

"As far as the environmental community is concerned, that [FEIS] was never completely final," she said.

Howard said the Gulf Coast Project will not require a new environmental impact study. Wanna Bet

"There's been three and a half years of environmental review on the entire pipeline route," he said. "Saying that there needs to be more environmental review on the same route is just a stalling tactic by professional activists."worked on the northern portion

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

.... it will likely end up in Asia or another market....

likely?

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

they didn't "approve the southern portion last month", it was already approved but held up by State pending approval of the rest:

This...

The pipeline to which Obama alluded is only being constructed because TransCanada redefined the project to avoid the State Department's regulatory control over the Keystone XL pipeline. "[TransCanada] informed the DOS that what had been the Cushing to U.S. Gulf Coast portion of the Keystone XL Project has its own independent value to the marketplace and will be constructed as a stand-alone Gulf Coast Project, not part of the Presidential Permit process," the company announced two weeks ago.

And this...

Are contradictory.

And yes, the State Department said they weren't going to expedite a review of the new proposal. That doesn't mean they're dragging their heels...it means they want to do their jobs.

You claim that Obama is trying to "kill" the pipeline for "ideological" reasons...yet the Administration is granting permits for new pipelines to be built, oil production is up and Transcanada is working to mitigate environmental concerns which are a US national interest.

Sounds more like Obama is pretty good at his job.

-spence

[scottw]

Sounds more like Obama is pretty good at his job.

-spence[/QUOTE]

the timeline tells the entire story

[scottw]

WIKI
The Keystone XL extension was proposed in 2008. The application was filed in the beginning of 2009 and the National Energy Board of Canada started hearings in September 2009. ] It was approved by the National Energy Board on March 11, 2010.[14] The South Dakota Public Utilities Commission granted a permit on February 19, 2010

On July 21, 2010, the Environmental Protection Agency said the draft environmental impact study for Keystone XL was inadequate and should be revised, indicating that the State Department's original report was "unduly narrow" because it didn't fully look at oil spill response plans, safety issues and greenhouse gas concerns.

The U.S. Department of State in 2010 extended the deadline for federal agencies to decide if the pipeline is in the national interest.
The final environmental impact report was released on August 26, 2011. It stated that the pipeline would pose "no significant impacts" to most resources if environmental protection measures are followed, but it would present "significant adverse effects to certain cultural resources."

In the summer and fall of 2011, protests brought the challenge to the White House, leading ultimately to the President's November, 2011 postponement of the decision until 2013.

The final environmental impact report was released on August 26, 2011. It stated that the pipeline would pose "no significant impacts" to most resources if environmental protection measures are followed, but it would present "significant adverse effects to certain cultural resources."

In September, 2011, Cornell ILR Global Labor Institute released the results of the GLI KeystoneXL Report which evaluated the pipeline's impact on employment, the environment, energy independence, the economy, and other critical areas. (where Senator Bernie Sanders is apparently a frequent and admired speaker).

McKibben and other activists moved toward a new oppositional approach which coalesced in August with over 1000 nonviolent arrests at the White House. They promised to continue to challenge President Obama to stand by his 2008 call to "be the generation that finally frees America from the tyranny of oil" as he entered the 2012 reelection campaign.

On November 7, 2011, several thousand environmentalist supporters, some shouldering a long black inflatable replica of a pipeline, formed a human chain around the White House to try to convince Barack Obama to block the controversial Keystone XL project.

On November 10, 2011, four days after twelve thousand people encircled the White House, the culmination of months of protests, President Obama announced "the decision on the pipeline permit would be delayed until at least 2013, pending further environmental review".

On November 10, 2011, TransCanada stated they have spoken with the U.S. Department of State and will have conversations to discuss next steps. TransCanada pointed out fourteen different routes for Keystone XL were being studied, eight that impacted Nebraska. They included one potential alternative route in Nebraska that would have avoided the entire Sandhills region and Ogallala aquifer and six alternatives that would have reduced pipeline mileage crossing the Sandhills or the aquifer.

On November 22, 2011, the governor of Nebraska signed two bills that enacted a compromise agreed upon with the pipeline builder to move the route, and approved up to US$2 million in state funding for an environmental study.

On November 30, Senate Republicans introduced legislation aimed at forcing the Obama administration to approve the Keystone XL pipeline within 60 days, unless the president declares the project is not in the national interest.

In December 2011, Congress voted to give the Obama Administration a 60-day deadline to make a decision on TransCanada's application for the construction of the Keystone XL Pipeline.

On January 18, 2012, President Obama rejected the application, stating that the deadline for the decision had "prevented a full assessment of the pipeline's impact.

February 9, 2012 REUTERS The State Department’s inspector general has found no conflict of interest or improper political influence in the agency’s review of the disputed Keystone XL pipeline project.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 CALGARY/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - TransCanada Corp said on Monday it will build the southern leg of its $7 billion Keystone XL oil pipeline first, skirting a full-blown U.S. review

Feb 27, 2012(USA TODAY) -- The Obama administration, eager to tamp down the Keystone XL oil pipeline as a 2012 election issue, saluted news today that a Canadian company will proceed with part of the project.

POLITICO 3/8/12 Senate sends message to Obama on Keystone
Thursday’s squeaker of a Senate vote on the Keystone XL pipeline serves both as a warning to President Barack Obama that a majority of both houses of Congress supports the pipeline. Obama had personally lobbied Senate Democrats with phone calls urging them to oppose an amendment to the highway bill that would fast-track the Canada-to-Texas oil pipeline. And as it turned out, he needed every bit of their help.
In all, 11 Democrats joined 45 Republicans to support the pipeline. Only the fact that 60 votes were needed for passage saved the White House from an embarrassing defeat.


here's a great question...how many Obama voters were arrested in 2011????

[spence]

Read through your own timeline again, it refutes your own argument.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Read through your own timeline again, it refutes your own argument.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I guess you read and interpreted it in much the same way that you read and interpret our founding documents.