Supreme Court hearing Hobby Lobby v Obamacare

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

You have a very vivid obsession with sex with it comes to issues of contraception and homosexuality.

As for proof, I've never been in an HL store and don't even know if there's one in the area. That being said, I'd be willing to wager they sell Chinese products...this isn't rocket science.

-spence

"You have a very vivid obsession with sex with it comes to issues of contraception and homosexuality."

More stupid, baseless insults.

I get concerned when your hero decides he can ignore the parts of the constitution he doesn't happen to like. In this case, it has to do with recreational sex. That's not my obsession, that's the specific wrecking ball Obama is taking to the constitution in this case.

I'm obsessed with homosexuality? Hardly.

"I'd be willing to wager they sell Chinese products...this isn't rocket science."

Having trouble with comprehension today? I didn't say they didn't sell Chinese products. What I said was, (1) that doesn't mean the factory they use is exploitative, and (2) it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The constitution applies to all Americans, even those who sell goods made in China.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I didn't say they didn't sell Chinese products. What I said was, (1) that doesn't mean the factory they use is exploitative, and (2) it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The constitution applies to all Americans, even those who sell goods made in China.

The number one line in their charter - even before value for customers!

Honoring the Lord in all we do by operating the company in a manner consistent with biblical principles.

Do you think the country of China in ANY WAY reinforces biblical principals?

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Do you think the country of China in ANY WAY reinforces biblical principals?

-spence

No I don't. But HL isn't limiting itself to associating with Christians. They have 13,000 employees, many of whom are not Christian.

Again, maybe you can focus on the only thing that matters here...the constitution. Instead of telling us what jerks the people at HL are, please tell me why they don't deserve the same constitutional protections that you enjoy? Try to limit your answer to that topic...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The number one line in their charter - even before value for customers!



Do you think the country of China in ANY WAY reinforces biblical principals?

-spence

As Jim in CT says, Hobby Lobby is not limiting itself to associating only with Christians--neither as employees or customers, nor even with only Christian manufacturers. That would be nearly impossible since all the materials that comprise the products they sell come from diverse and unknown sources. Nor could they actually sell those products without using currencies which are produced by secular agencies which do not reinforce, or operate on, Christian principles.

The owners of Hobby Lobby can only hold themselves responsible for "Honoring the Lord in all we do by operating the company in a manner consistent with biblical principles."

Even Christ himself, in his teaching, had to use resources which were produced by non-Christians. He did not prohibit others from doing the same, but required only that they personally led their life according to his teaching.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Even Christ himself, in his teaching, had to use resources which were produced by non-Christians. He did not prohibit others from doing the same, but required only that they personally led their life according to his teaching.

By that logic, what substantial burden is there on Hobby Lobby to comply with Federal law? The company is using resources (i.e. employees) which may not share the same religious convictions. Then...According to Jesus Christ, as long as the owners of the Hobby Lobby lead their life according to his teaching everything should be all hunky dory…

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

By that logic, what substantial burden is there on Hobby Lobby to comply with Federal law?

The original burden is in the passing of a law. The supreme law is supposed to be the Constitution. If we accept that the Constitution grants the Federal Government the power in all cases to tell individuals and private businesses what they must do, and in detail how they must do it under a penalty for noncompliance, whether that be a tax or imprisonment or death, then we accept that the Federal Government is supreme. That it has an unlimited power to destroy. And if we accept that, then there is no need for a constitution which purports to limit the power of government and holds the individual as sovereign. The progressive system of government has long ago begun the process of transforming our government into this kind of all-powerful leviathan. And if we accept that, we accept total subjugation to it, and are totally at its mercy. These current laws and regulations that are being passed in the name of providing for our welfare are the final touches to the process. That a majority of us are stupid enough to accept its "gifts" forces the rest of us, against our will and conscience, to comply with tyranny. And we are so apparently powerless that there is, as you put it, "no substantial burden" for the government to comply with its own law. It makes law and changes it at will. Why is there any substantial burden on us individuals to comply with such tyranny except by force, by threat of destruction.

The company is using resources (i.e. employees) which may not share the same religious convictions. Then...According to Jesus Christ, as long as the owners of the Hobby Lobby lead their life according to his teaching everything should be all hunky dory…

-spence

The owners of Hobby Lobby are providing a means for people who wish to participate with them in their enterprise and be compensated for their work, which helps the employees to have the things they wish to have. They are not forced to share in the enterprise, nor forced to worship or live as the owners do. How should it be that the employees should be able to force the owners to bend to their will? Is there some sort of suicide pact which must be signed in order to hire employees? If the compensation is not enough, the would be employee need not take the job. If the employer wishes to provide health insurance, must that insurance have clauses which violate the principles by which they personally live? If employees wish to have an assisted suicide, must the employers be compelled to provide the means to do so if it is against their conscience?

Those things employers create including what they provide in compensation are done in respect to who they are and what they believe? Those things are a reflection and a result of who they are. The resources they use are mostly out of their ability to control and not a result or reflection of who they personally are. They don't create or control the lives of the employees. They don't create the coin of the realm. They don't create the products which they sell. If the products they choose to sell are useful and beneficial, that is a reflection on who they are. If those products are harmful and against the principles by which they live, that is also a reflection of who they are.

Jesus Christ, I assume, would approve of them living their life and operating their business in a way which reflects his teachings. If they sold, or provided, in a way which is counter to his teaching, he would probably disapprove.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

By that logic, what substantial burden is there on Hobby Lobby to comply with Federal law? The company is using resources (i.e. employees) which may not share the same religious convictions. Then...According to Jesus Christ, as long as the owners of the Hobby Lobby lead their life according to his teaching everything should be all hunky dory…

-spence

"By that logic, what substantial burden is there on Hobby Lobby to comply with Federal law?"

Of course they have to obey the law. But Congress, and the Courts, must make sure that the laws do not violate the Constitution.

"The company is using resources (i.e. employees) which may not share the same religious convictions."

Correct, the company does not require employees to share their religious views. Hence, the employees are free to fornicate all they want, and get as many abortions as they want. The employees, the way I read the Constitution, are not allowed to force the owners to pay for their choice to engage in recreational sex.

"According to Jesus Christ, as long as the owners of the Hobby Lobby lead their life according to his teaching everything should be all hunky dory"

More simple-minded, petty mockery of that which you disagree with.