Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

     

Left Nav S-B Home Register FAQ Members List S-B on Facebook Arcade WEAX Tides Buoys Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Right Nav

Left Container Right Container
 

Go Back   Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating » Striper Chat - Discuss stuff other than fishing ~ The Scuppers and Political talk » Political Threads

Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-23-2018, 09:23 AM   #61
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
One thing on this issue I haven't heard mentioned is if you have an armed teacher(s) and there's an active shooter they have to respond to...

...

Who's taking care of that classroom of kids?
A fair and pertinent question. There would need to be a protocol, and there are ways to deal with that. Have a plan where a teacher can't leave his class to engage a shooter until he knows that his kids are in another class first.

Having the military in the school, would also eliminate that concern.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 09:27 AM   #62
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
I believe there have been laws restricting semi automatics and large capacity magazines that have upheld by courts. The laws say the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to semi autos. Don't know if they have been challenged. Maybe Virginia or Maryland?
CT did something pretty aggressive after Sandy Hook, right? Can you still buy an AR-15 in CT?

The courts have long held that the 2nd Amendment isn't absolute. Which is a good thing, I don't want Maxine Waters buying a nuke.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 09:30 AM   #63
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Remember that town hall CNN sponsored after the Kate Steinle killing, when grieving family members of those who had been murdered by illegal aliens were able to question Democrat lawmakers who had voted in favor of sanctuary cities and open borders?

Neither do I.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 10:22 AM   #64
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
A fair and pertinent question. There would need to be a protocol, and there are ways to deal with that. Have a plan where a teacher can't leave his class to engage a shooter until he knows that his kids are in another class first.
Sounds like a recipe for total chaos and inaction. The whole idea is so ridiculously stupid I can't even believe people are talking about it. Trump's remarks yesterday were laughable. I can't believe he really said you might have a teacher who had won a shooting contest so give them a bonus to carry in school.

Hell, even in FL a veteran police officer couldn't engage the shooter. You think a social studies teacher is just going to go all Rambo?

Even worse is taking the wrong actions...it's makes people think something has been done and they get complacent.
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 10:24 AM   #65
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Remember that town hall CNN sponsored after the Kate Steinle killing, when grieving family members of those who had been murdered by illegal aliens were able to question Democrat lawmakers who had voted in favor of sanctuary cities and open borders?

Neither do I.
Probably because illegal immigrants commit much less violent crime than the population as a whole. It's not a top of mind issue like school shootings and mass shootings.
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 10:40 AM   #66
JohnR
Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
iTrader: (1)
 
JohnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 32,538
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso View Post
So please stop the "traditional" family values, argument thats everyones responsibility as a parent
Because everyone is doing such a fine job raising their kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
I want to know why people think that fully automatic ar-15’s are “too scary” for civialian ownership if the argument that banning a semi automatic one is unconstitutional siting the well regulated militia argument. A militia needs military tools that are equal to the tools that our governments soldiers have access too. It does not make sense to me.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Interesting question. From a purely 2A perspective civilians should also have artillery and F22s. 2A as interpreted in Heller -v- DC, allows for firearms and allows for types of firearms for self defense. So based on this we should have access to full auto too. But we don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Hell, even in FL a veteran police officer couldn't engage the shooter. You think a social studies teacher is just going to go all Rambo?

Even worse is taking the wrong actions...it's makes people think something has been done and they get complacent.
That school SRO failed his charges, those kids. Some of those kids acted with far higher guts and integrity than did that SRO.

A lot of different people and organizations dropped the ball on Parkland.

NUMEROUS opportunities to prevent that tragedy where there, some ignored, some not followed through.

~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~

Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers


Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.


Apocalypse is Coming:
JohnR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 11:25 AM   #67
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 16,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
Reports are that a deputy showed up while the shooting was taking place and did not go in. I'm sure all the armed teachers would have taken down the gunman though.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Maybe they would have, maybe they wouldn't. But I can guarantee, with out a doubt, that if they weren't armed the answer is "Wouldn't"
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 11:31 AM   #68
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Sounds like a recipe for total chaos and inaction. The whole idea is so ridiculously stupid I can't even believe people are talking about it. Trump's remarks yesterday were laughable. I can't believe he really said you might have a teacher who had won a shooting contest so give them a bonus to carry in school.

Hell, even in FL a veteran police officer couldn't engage the shooter. You think a social studies teacher is just going to go all Rambo?

Even worse is taking the wrong actions...it's makes people think something has been done and they get complacent.
You’re doing what every other ideologue does. Only talking about one side of the issue. Yes, Spence, there are useless cops out there. That doesn’t mean that police don’t add value. Similarly, armed guards in school can not prevent every death. But they might well save lives.

When evaluating an idea, you consider the pros and the cons. Not just the cons. You never learned that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 11:35 AM   #69
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
Maybe they would have, maybe they wouldn't. But I can guarantee, with out a doubt, that if they weren't armed the answer is "Wouldn't"
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Unless an idea is 100% guaranteed to work in every conceivable situation, the thoughtless ideologues won’t consider it. And because no idea is foolproof, nothing gets done. You cannot talk to these people, it’s not possible. Liberals won’t concede that armed guards might be a godsend in some situations, conservatives won’t concede that we might be better off without bump stocks and high capacity magazines. It’s not possible to talk to these people.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 11:38 AM   #70
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
Interesting question. From a purely 2A perspective civilians should also have artillery and F22s. 2A as interpreted in Heller -v- DC, allows for firearms and allows for types of firearms for self defense. So based on this we should have access to full auto too. But we don't.
It's probably worth noting here that a big reason access to full auto firearms was restricted is because Congress at the time was concerned with their increasing use in violent crime. (and taxes)

It's also probably worth noting here that a big reason you rarely ever see full auto firearms used in violent crime today is because they're hard to get.

Last edited by spence; 02-23-2018 at 11:46 AM..
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 11:43 AM   #71
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
You’re doing what every other ideologue does. Only talking about one side of the issue. Yes, Spence, there are useless cops out there. That doesn’t mean that police don’t add value. Similarly, armed guards in school can not prevent every death. But they might well save lives.

When evaluating an idea, you consider the pros and the cons. Not just the cons. You never learned that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
You're jumping to conclusions. Just because I don't weigh both sides of an argument in a post doesn't mean I don't hold them in my mind.

That being said, when the negatives outweigh the positives 10:1...
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 12:00 PM   #72
JohnR
Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
iTrader: (1)
 
JohnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 32,538
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
It's probably worth noting here that a big reason access to full auto firearms was restricted is because Congress at the time was concerned with their increasing use in violent crime. (and taxes)

It's also probably worth noting here that a big reason you rarely ever see full auto firearms used in violent crime today is because they're hard to get.
It is also worth noting that the vast significant majority of gun owners would not use them maliciously yet those same owners are being told they have blood on their hands in an Orwellian two minutes of hate (much longer actually).

There are enough bad guys (that have no intention of following the law) with fully automatic weapons - in addition to those with semi-auto - to be concerned with them.

~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~

Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers


Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.


Apocalypse is Coming:
JohnR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 12:27 PM   #73
Pete F.
Master tråd morder
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 3,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
It is also worth noting that the vast significant majority of gun owners would not use them maliciously yet those same owners are being told they have blood on their hands in an Orwellian two minutes of hate (much longer actually).

There are enough bad guys (that have no intention of following the law) with fully automatic weapons - in addition to those with semi-auto - to be concerned with them.
John, there have only been 2 homicides with legally held fully automatic weapons since they were controlled, the records are not easy to access. I was wondering how many with illegally held automatics?
No being a lawyer of any type, i wonder why if the 2nd A gives you the right to keep and bear arms you cannot have bombs, cannons, fully automatic weapons, etc.

Pete
Term limits and campaign contribution limits are what needs to happen, take the profit out of politics
Pete F. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 12:41 PM   #74
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
It is also worth noting that the vast significant majority of gun owners would not use them maliciously yet those same owners are being told they have blood on their hands in an Orwellian two minutes of hate (much longer actually).
Blood on their hands is a bit of hyperbole, it may be fairer to say some gun owners are being told they don't need certain weapons or shouldn't have certain weapons.

Quote:
There are enough bad guys (that have no intention of following the law) with fully automatic weapons - in addition to those with semi-auto - to be concerned with them.
So why don't they then? Crime with legally obtained full auto is statistically not even relevant. I haven't seen a stat on illegal full auto weapons but if it's out there it's pretty rare also.
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 01:02 PM   #75
zimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
In a neutral context, I have no problem with asking politicians about the donors they take money from. In that context, the obvious implication is that if Rubio won't reject the NRA, then he has no sympathy for this kid.

Both sides will occasionally weaponize tragedy to advance an agenda. It's repulsive when either side does it. That's what CNN did, they are a complete joke.
Those were victims of this tragedy asking him that. CNN gave them a forum to do it. Not sure Faux news did the same.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
zimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 01:09 PM   #76
JohnR
Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
iTrader: (1)
 
JohnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 32,538
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
John, there have only been 2 homicides with legally held fully automatic weapons since they were controlled, the records are not easy to access. I was wondering how many with illegally held automatics?
No being a lawyer of any type, i wonder why if the 2nd A gives you the right to keep and bear arms you cannot have bombs, cannons, fully automatic weapons, etc.
Some of the more basic readings of 2A would allow that, as well as Constitutional Carry. Nor am I a lawyer.

There are probably more illegally configured full auto than legal NFA firearms. That people willing to pay much more and jump thru more hoops can get on occasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Blood on their hands is a bit of hyperbole, it may be fairer to say some gun owners are being told they don't need certain weapons or shouldn't have certain weapons.


So why don't they then? Crime with legally obtained full auto is statistically not even relevant. I haven't seen a stat on illegal full auto weapons but if it's out there it's pretty rare also.
They are out there but yes the numbers are low, confirmed usage is low, but they are out there.

~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~

Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers


Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.


Apocalypse is Coming:
JohnR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 01:20 PM   #77
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
You're jumping to conclusions. Just because I don't weigh both sides of an argument in a post doesn't mean I don't hold them in my mind.

That being said, when the negatives outweigh the positives 10:1...

"You're jumping to conclusions"

Nope. Responding to your constant, consistent thoughtlessness.

"when the negatives outweigh the positives 10:1"

What are the positives? What might the positives have been, if there was an armed soldier at Sandy Hook and at this school?

You see the lack of perfect guarantee, as a downside. There was no downside to having the useless cop in FL. There was no upside because he failed, but there was no downside, wither. He didn't make it worse.

Let's make it simple Spence. If I propose to put an armed soldier in the schools your kids go to, do you think your kids are more safe, or less safe?

No go onto Rachael Maddow's website and paste her answer as a response...

You are descending further and further into the intellectual abyss.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 01:22 PM   #78
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
They are out there but yes the numbers are low, confirmed usage is low, but they are out there.
Not sure why this matters to the discussion.
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 01:24 PM   #79
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy View Post
Those were victims of this tragedy asking him that. CNN gave them a forum to do it. Not sure Faux news did the same.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
But CNN doesn't let abortion survivors confront Democrats who take money from Planned Parenthood. Nor does CNN let Kate Steinle's family confront Democrats who advocate open borders and sanctuary policies. Only victims whose cause is sympathetic to liberals, get to confront their adversaries on CNN.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 01:29 PM   #80
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
You see the lack of perfect guarantee, as a downside. There was no downside to having the useless cop in FL. There was no upside because he failed, but there was no downside, wither. He didn't make it worse.
Nothing is going to be perfect and I don't think most people have any issue with a trained officer providing school security, but as we've seen even this has to be part of a more comprehensive plan.

I'd assume that the killer in FL very knew the school had armed security and this did nothing to deter his intentions.
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 02:02 PM   #81
Sea Dangles
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Sea Dangles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Blood on their hands is a bit of hyperbole, it may be fairer to say some gun owners are being told they don't need certain weapons or shouldn't have certain weapons.


So why don't they then? Crime with legally obtained full auto is statistically not even relevant. I haven't seen a stat on illegal full auto weapons but if it's out there it's pretty rare also.
Spence, you actually wrote a word "fairer"🤡. Have you been hanging out with Wayne too much?

Also ,it would be fair to say a veteran police officer wouldn't engage the shooter. You used the word couldn't,which is a stretch if speaking truthfully.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
Sea Dangles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 02:04 PM   #82
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Nothing is going to be perfect and I don't think most people have any issue with a trained officer providing school security, but as we've seen even this has to be part of a more comprehensive plan.

I'd assume that the killer in FL very knew the school had armed security and this did nothing to deter his intentions.
People who are suicidal aren't going to be deterred by an armed guard. But they can be stopped by an armed guard.

You don't know what he knew, yet you leap to the conclusion which supports your side's ideology, and I for one am shocked, you never do that.
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 03:03 PM   #83
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles View Post
Spence, you actually wrote a word "fairer"🤡. Have you been hanging out with Wayne too much?

Also ,it would be fair to say a veteran police officer wouldn't engage the shooter. You used the word couldn't,which is a stretch if speaking truthfully.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Multi-tasking.

I almost changed couldn't to wouldn't but thought it was pretty much the same thing considering it was his sworn duty.
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 03:03 PM   #84
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 18,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
But CNN doesn't let abortion survivors confront Democrats who take money from Planned Parenthood. Nor does CNN let Kate Steinle's family confront Democrats who advocate open borders and sanctuary policies. Only victims whose cause is sympathetic to liberals, get to confront their adversaries on CNN.
Oh jeeze.
spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 04:05 PM   #85
wdmso
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Somerset MA
Posts: 2,340
its funny Police shoot kill unarmed suspect The right supports them blue lives matter

Cop doesn't engage school shooter The right , his lack of action was pure cowardice


How does one choose who to protect out of a school of 3000 kids

who knows why he did what he did? was he covering and securing the wave of kids near him panicking as they ran by ,, did he know where the shooter was? was he waiting for back up like all officer are trained to do? or is the right pissed at him because it blew a whole in the good guy with a gun Fairy tale they have been promoting the past several
years

and if on Cue fox say's it Trump repeats it Trump suggests Florida officer a 'coward'
wdmso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 04:40 PM   #86
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
People who are suicidal aren't going to be deterred by an armed guard. But they can be stopped by an armed guard.
There is this unverified belief by gun controllers that there is no evidence that armed persons in schools would prevent mass shootings. Of course, the same gun controllers are silent when asked if there is any proof that gun free zones prevent mass shootings.

I thought I'd take a quick look online and found many articles and documentations of armed citizens ending or preventing mass shootings. Many of the armed citizens had military or police training or general gun training, one in the brief list linked here was a school principle. Most were not in schools, but the examples can easily be applied to schools. The article counters the idea which gun controllers pooh pooh, that some form of trained armed security as Trump proposes would not be effective. There are other articles and examples on the net, but I just posted this one from WAPO so that it could not be discounted as right wing propaganda:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ab592191b7af

Last edited by detbuch; 02-23-2018 at 06:57 PM..
detbuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 04:50 PM   #87
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Oh jeeze.
Explain how it's different, other than the lack of sympathy that liberals have for their cause?
Jim in CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 05:32 PM   #88
zimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
There is this unverified belief by gun controllers that there is no proof that armed persons in schools would not prevent mass shootings.
Is that really what you meant to write? If so, I am perplexed.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
zimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 06:48 PM   #89
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,516
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy View Post
Is that really what you meant to write? If so, I am perplexed.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Good catch. Fixed it. Thanks. I guess my eyes was goin' crazy when I made the typo. Meant to say . . . unverified belief by gun controllers that there is no evidence that armed persons in schools would [rather than "would not"] prevent mass shootings.

Last edited by detbuch; 02-23-2018 at 06:58 PM..
detbuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 09:52 PM   #90
zimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
Good catch. Fixed it. Thanks. I guess my eyes was goin' crazy when I made the typo. Meant to say . . . unverified belief by gun controllers that there is no evidence that armed persons in schools would [rather than "would not"] prevent mass shootings.
Ok, got it. Can you provide evidence that armed persons would prevent mass shootings? There are at least two cases where armed persons at schools didn't, let alone assassinations by snipers, etc.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
zimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Please use all necessary and proper safety precautions. STAY SAFE Striper Talk Forums
Copyright 1998-20012 Striped-Bass.com