We're Just Different People

[Sweetwater]

I've often heard people say that Conservatives and Liberals basically want the same thing, they just have different ways of going about it. But a recent Reason-Rupe Poll (Sept. 1, 2011) shows that we are very different kinds of people that have different core values.

When asked whether people succeed based on a) "hard work" or b) "luck/help from others," liberals were nearly 6 times more likely to cite luck (28%) compared to conservatives (5%).

When asked for one to become wealthy must it be a) "at the expensive of others" or b) "wealth can be grown so there is enough for everyone" 70% of liberals believed that wealth can only come at the expense of others compared to only 27% of conservatives.

Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others." Just half (51%) of liberals would teach their children to work hard and be self-reliant compare to over three-quarters (77%) of conservatives.

I'd personally hate to go through life thinking that only luck (good or bad) controls my success and that my financial success can only be achieved on the backs of others while failing to teach my children the value of hard work and self-reliance.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Sweetwater

I'd personally hate to go through life thinking that only luck (good or bad) controls my success and that my financial success can only be achieved on the backs of others while failing to teach my children the value of hard work and self-reliance.

Luck did control your success - you were born here in the USA.

The rest, of course, is up to you to be self-reliant and hard working

[CTSurfrat]

The the belief in hard work and self-reliance seems to be being replaced with the government (or someone else) will do that for me...I'm entitled to it!

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Sweetwater

Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others." Just half (51%) of liberals would teach their children to work hard and be self-reliant compare to over three-quarters (77%) of conservatives.

People make their own "luck" by hard work and getting recognized for it.

I don't know of a school or business that looks for slackards and or rewards
them.

Hard work brings a feeling of confidence, self worth and respect
by others, which leads to opportunities that a slackard will never find.

The hard worker looks at his work and says "well done."
A slackard says to the hard worker, "Sucker," and falls into loathing himself.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Who was it that said..."The Harder I work the Luckier I get"

[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Who was it that said..."The Harder I work the Luckier I get"

Patrick Kennedy

[The Dad Fisherman]

"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it." ~Thomas Jefferson

[ecduzitgood]

I tend to go to extremes and can say first hand if you work too hard or too well you get shunned. No body wants someone around who makes them look bad, so guys like me end up getting the shaft. Knowing someone gets your foot in doors not open to others and is a major factor in my eyes. Luck is also involved, although people who have it don't recognize it. Being in the right place at the right time or being born into the right family are what I would consider luck.

[Sweetwater]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

I tend to go to extremes and can say first hand if you work too hard or too well you get shunned. No body wants someone around who makes them look bad, so guys like me end up getting the shaft. Knowing someone gets your foot in doors not open to others and is a major factor in my eyes. Luck is also involved, although people who have it don't recognize it. Being in the right place at the right time or being born into the right family are what I would consider luck.

Well, I don't know you personally. But if you work in a job that rewards laziness and underproduction and shuns those who work hard and do well, I'd guess you either have a union job or a government job.

I hope this isn't taken with offense.

[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by Sweetwater

Well, I don't know you personally. But if you work in a job that rewards laziness and underproduction and shuns those who work hard and do well, I'd guess you either have a union job or a government job.

I hope this isn't taken with offense.

I did , but when the president of the Union tells you "$25 of crack goes a long way in Brockton" and you ask him to clarify what he is saying and he tells you "you are making people look bad and you could get conked on the head" you walk away. Especially after the police interview you and photograph your truck for a supposed hit and run in the parking lot that your co-workers and the witness identify your truck has the vehicle responsible on your last day of probation. Luckily I knew the cop and he knew me well enough to see through what was happening.
Then when working private sector jobs and getting harassed and called a brown noser all the time because you take your job seriously you tend to just say F-it I give up and choose to live a simple life without much, yeah I loose. Good thing my family owned a business (union shop) where I learned my work ethic (always being watched and set an example) which they sold so I have a trust fund for my future.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

I tend to go to extremes and can say first hand if you work too hard or too well you get shunned. No body wants someone around who makes them look bad, so guys like me end up getting the shaft. Knowing someone gets your foot in doors not open to others and is a major factor in my eyes. Luck is also involved, although people who have it don't recognize it. Being in the right place at the right time or being born into the right family are what I would consider luck.

I also know of what you speak first hand. That's why I work non-union now. Union's create lazy, entitled workers.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by buckman

. Union's create lazy, entitled workers.

I don't think it creates them....I think it enables them. There are a lot of union workers who do put in a solid days work for a solid days pay....but if someone is a Lazy POS by nature...they seem to thrive in a union environment....where in the private sector they wouldn't last very long.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I don't think it creates them....I think it enables them. There are a lot of union workers who do put in a solid days work for a solid days pay....but if someone is a Lazy POS by nature...they seem to thrive in a union environment....where in the private sector they wouldn't last very long.

Point well made.
However, hardworkers can be forced to slow down so as not to make others look bad. That would not stand in the private sector...not in this economy

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by buckman

Point well made.
However, hardworkers can be forced to slow down so as not to make others look bad. That would not stand in the private sector...not in this economy

I am pretty mixed on the union / non-union thing but I have been personally told by some union members I worked with ( I was not union) to slow down as I was making them look bad. I was too ambitious.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I am pretty mixed on the union / non-union thing but I have been personally told by some union members I worked with ( I was not union) to slow down as I was making them look bad. I was too ambitious.

See, I when I worked for GE I was a member of IBEW....the majority of us came to work and worked....we did everything we were supposed too, Honest day's work for Honest Day's pay....but out of the 20-something of us in the shop there were 2 that were worthless POS's....Boss couldn't get rid of them, that's where the Unions are the problem...at least from my experience.

I'm seeing the same thing in the government.....9 of us in my code....8 working....1 worthless POS.....He'll never get tossed.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I am pretty mixed on the union / non-union thing but I have been personally told by some union members I worked with ( I was not union) to slow down as I was making them look bad. I was too ambitious.

You'll get this in the private sector as well, although it's usually not as obvious. I've been told by many people the reason some don't want to pass me the ball is because they're afraid I'll run all the way down the field

-spence

[Saltheart]

Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others."

Why are these two mutually exclusive? That's the trouble with these kinds of polls. The choices they give put words in your mouth!

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others."

Why are these two mutually exclusive? That's the trouble with these kinds of polls. The choices they give put words in your mouth!

Your right SH, good parenting includes both and and one
shouldn't be more important then the other.

There should be no problem in being a hard worker and having a giving spirit.

[Sweetwater]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Lastly, respondents were asked to indicate which of two values is most important to teach your children, a) "to work hard and be self-reliant" or b) "to learn to share with others."

Why are these two mutually exclusive? That's the trouble with these kinds of polls. The choices they give put words in your mouth!

They're not mutually exclusive in practice, but the question was asked in this way to determine which value people hold most strongly...sharing over self-reliance, or self-reliance over sharing.

So, given a trade-off, liberals are more likely to choose "sharing."

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sweetwater

They're not mutually exclusive in practice, but the question was asked in this way to determine which value people hold most strongly...sharing over self-reliance, or self-reliance over sharing.

So, given a trade-off, liberals are more likely to choose "sharing."

Liberals and conservatives don't have all the same beliefs???

STOP THE PRESSES!!!


Let's look at the actual poll instead of snippets...

Reason-Rupe Surveys : Reason Magazine

What it seems to indicate is that the majority of Americans don't fit into either of the two categories presented above.

What it also seems to indicate is that when broken down by party, people who would identify as democrats and independents scored pretty close to each other.

Another element is that the category questions separate "libertarian" from "conservative" while in the real world these are often combined. The net effect if this is to concentrate the "conservative" numbers. This is reflected when you look at the difference between the two tables.

If anything this poll confirms what we already knew, that our nation is made up of a diverse set of viewpoints, but that we share more in common than some would like you to believe.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Sweetwater

So, given a trade-off, liberals are more likely to choose "sharing."

Ya, "sharing" other people's hard earned money.

[Sweetwater]

Originally Posted by spence

Liberals and conservatives don't have all the same beliefs???

STOP THE PRESSES!!!


Let's look at the actual poll instead of snippets...

Reason-Rupe Surveys : Reason Magazine

What it seems to indicate is that the majority of Americans don't fit into either of the two categories presented above.

What it also seems to indicate is that when broken down by party, people who would identify as democrats and independents scored pretty close to each other.

Another element is that the category questions separate "libertarian" from "conservative" while in the real world these are often combined. The net effect if this is to concentrate the "conservative" numbers. This is reflected when you look at the difference between the two tables.

If anything this poll confirms what we already knew, that our nation is made up of a diverse set of viewpoints, but that we share more in common than some would like you to believe.

-spence

Right, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" do not represent everyone. But that's not the point. The point was to take the two ends of the political extreme (thus leaving out libertarians and commutarians or not comparing democrats to republicans which are more politically ambiguous designations) to best illustrate the differences. These differences are important because they show that people don't value the same things and just pursue them in different ways (as some often think is the case), rather, they value completely different things and have sometimes incompatible world views.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Sweetwater

These differences are important because they show that people don't value the same things and just pursue them in different ways (as some often think is the case), rather, they value completely different things and have sometimes incompatible world views.

The poll doesn't say that if you value one you don't value the other....it just makes you pick the one you value more.....you can still value Both of them...

[spence]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

The poll doesn't say that if you value one you don't value the other....it just makes you pick the one you value more.....you can still value Both of them...

Additionally, if I remember correctly in all cases a minority of those classified as liberals or democrats were on the left end of the spectrum.

I'd wager that if you asked other loaded questions you'd get the Right end of the question responding in an equally off center manner.

-spence