PTSD

[Sea Dangles]

The name of the killer is Robert Bales. He had seen his buddies leg blown off the previous day and decided to jump into a bottle for solace. Family guy with two kids on his third tour in the Mideast.Sad for everyone and an embarrassment for the country. There must be a very fine line in being a soldier where you have to be cold enough to kill yet disciplined enough to show restraint.

[spence]

I believe this was this fourth deployment, three in Iraq and then Afghanistan. The report was he thought he was done and really didn't want to go...at 38 years old and with two young kids I don't blame him.

It's a sad situation and just sucks all around, but for years many have been saying we're pushing our troops too far.

I hope they don't go after the death penalty, it just doesn't seem right even considering how brutal his crime appears to have been. My guess is his leadership will be scrutinized significantly.

-spence

[likwid]

The base has a history of dismissing PTSD cases based on keeping expenses down. (resulting in suicides and shootings)
2 headshrinkers were canned for (basically) ignoring PTSD
He had a history of (minor in this case) incidents in the past
He was stop lossed

Recipe for disaster.

[nightfighter]

When the combatants cannot be distiguished from the non-combatants, you are going to have this reaction manifest itself. Going to put this back on the enemy who continues to hide among the civilan population, using women, children and animals to wage war against our uniformed troops.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

When the combatants cannot be distiguished from the non-combatants, you are going to have this reaction manifest itself. Going to put this back on the enemy who continues to hide among the civilan population, using women, children and animals to wage war against our uniformed troops.

If this had happened at 1pm in a skirmish, absolutely. When you walk a mile at night solo and open fire (and then burn the bodies of some of the kids) it is not on the enemy.

I heard an interview with the IAVA head who was very cautious to put this on PTSD as he said there are lots of folks suffering from it w/o going on a rampage...

regardless it is a tragedy for the victims and the family of the perpetrator...

[likwid]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

When the combatants cannot be distiguished from the non-combatants, you are going to have this reaction manifest itself. Going to put this back on the enemy who continues to hide among the civilan population, using women, children and animals to wage war against our uniformed troops.

This has nothing to do with what the combatants look like. Its the stress every/any soldier goes through and how its handled/dealt with.

Friend of mine came back from Sadir City, Iraq after the height of it being a complete hell hole of bombings/attacks. They were shelled multiple times a day, shot at on patrol constantly. Saw kids playing in the streets in the middle of fire fights completely oblivious.

He called saying he wasn't sure if he was going to shoot himself or shoot other people and needed help. The base pretty much told him he was "eligible for 4 meetings with the shrink but thats it".

Very thankful that Wounded Warrior (and Nick of Soldier Ride, a friend) is picking up where the military/VA is completely failing.

You should watch this some time. HBO: Wartorn 1861-2010: Home

You'll realize what the enemy looks like has nothing to do with how people handle war.

[nightfighter]

My point is that the entire deployment becomes a "skirmish", 24/7. This is not like the Civil War when both sides retired for the night. The fact that the enemy lives among the population and kills from the safety of hiding in plain view is what manifests this reaction. The kids might be oblivious to the threat, but our troops are not. I would liken it to spending an entire tour in a sniper's scope. Takes a toll....

[spence]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

My point is that the entire deployment becomes a "skirmish", 24/7. This is not like the Civil War when both sides retired for the night. The fact that the enemy lives among the population and kills from the safety of hiding in plain view is what manifests this reaction. The kids might be oblivious to the threat, but our troops are not. I would liken it to spending an entire tour in a sniper's scope. Takes a toll....

They had a lot of PTSD in the Civil War, it was just called Solider's Heart, then Shell Shock etc...

-spence

[basswipe]

Who so far in this thread has served any time?If you haven't and throw out the "I can only imagine what its like" line, no you can't imagine what its like.

Americans are very different from the rest of the world,we've never had an occupying force in our country EVER.If you say yes we have and quote the Revolutionary War you are an idiot and if say the Civil War you are just plain stupid.

This same type of incident has happened here before and we just spent the last 12yrs fighting two wars because of it.The Afghan people should be pissed,16 non-combatants otherwise known as people are dead at the hands of an American.

You,me and the rest of the world may never no what was in that soldiers head until if ever he decides to speak.Until that time comes if it ever does happen,stop speculating as to the mind set of this soldier.

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by spence

They had a lot of PTSD in the Civil War, it was just called Solider's Heart, then Shell Shock etc...

-spence

Totally missed my point. In Civil War, both sides would retire for the night, and resume the next day. This war is round the clock.


I'm out. Used up my quarterly quota in this forum.

Basswipe, I have.

[spence]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Totally missed my point. In Civil War, both sides would retire for the night, and resume the next day. This war is round the clock.

I understood that. My point was that even with proper uniforms, rules for engagement or reasonable hours...fighting men have always suffered from PTSD because war just sucks.

-spence

[GregW]

This whole thing sucks on so many levels.

1) It's horrible that the actions of one person ruin the good and brave deeds of so many others.

2) It is possible this could have been prevented. If what I hear is true, this guy asked for help and was denied and deployed anyway. The doctor who did that should be discharged immediately.

3) Sadly, part of the problem we have with our service members suffering from ptsd can actually be blamed on two major factors. The type of warfare currently being fought(guerilla) is mentally tougher for people to accept. When you have enemy combatants using women and children as human shields and employing them as weapons you have soldiers facing a tough mental state to overcome.
The second reason for abnormally high Ptsd in current (vietnam to current) is actually blamed upon the way they are treated. I remember reading a research paper for school where it was determined that soldiers were able to accept things easier as long as they feel they are getting a fair shake after they returned home. Obviously we saw the ill effects of an asinine public after the Vietnam war.
And to speak further on this, consider this. The average wait time for a disability claim for a veteran right now is over a year. . The American public should be screaming at the politicians for this bull#^&#^&#^&#^&. A soldier volunteers to deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan for very little pay, you get the freedom and you , your son or daughter don't have to be bothered and all it would take is a letter to a senator, but that is too much? It seems like a might easy trade off to me.

I remember last year a very good friend of mine approached me and asked me about my fundraising. He said why aren't these troops getting help through the VA. I told him there is too much BS involved, and sometime people get left behind. That is why I raise money.

Disclaimer: I am not mad, nor do i feel mistreated. I have been very fortunate. This post is not aimed at anyone here, just as a general post on things I think should be improved.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by GregW

It's horrible that the actions of one person ruin the good and brave deeds of so many others.

That is always my reaction - and sympathy for the victims.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by GregW

This whole thing sucks on so many levels.

1) It's horrible that the actions of one person ruin the good and brave deeds of so many others.

.

It only tarnishes the actions of everybody else, if we allow it to be spun that way.

Heres what I mean. On the afternoon of 09/11/2001, BUsh was already telling us to be mindful that not all Muslims were responsible, that Islam was a religion of peace. Thst statement, so soon after the attacks, told me a lot about what kind of a guy Bush is.

Compare that to Obama. Obama has apologized to the victims, which of course he should do. But I'd like Obama to IMMEDIATELY follow up that apology with a stern warning to the Muslim world, not to use this as an excuse to kill random Americans. I'd like to see Obama remind the Muslim world, in no uncertain terms, that millions of them are better off now, thanks to the heroic efforts of our military. Maybe he did this, but I haven't seen it. And it's not in his character, in my opinion, to remind folks of the sacrifices we make on their behalf. He's great at apologizing for our faults, I wish he was quicker to brag about our contributions to the world.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It only tarnishes the actions of everybody else, if we allow it to be spun that way.

Heres what I mean. On the afternoon of 09/11/2001, BUsh was already telling us to be mindful that not all Muslims were responsible, that Islam was a religion of peace. Thst statement, so soon after the attacks, told me a lot about what kind of a guy Bush is.

Compare that to Obama. Obama has apologized to the victims, which of course he should do. But I'd like Obama to IMMEDIATELY follow up that apology with a stern warning to the Muslim world, not to use this as an excuse to kill random Americans. I'd like to see Obama remind the Muslim world, in no uncertain terms, that millions of them are better off now, thanks to the heroic efforts of our military. Maybe he did this, but I haven't seen it. And it's not in his character, in my opinion, to remind folks of the sacrifices we make on their behalf. He's great at apologizing for our faults, I wish he was quicker to brag about our contributions to the world.

Awesome, blame Obama.

Go away.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Awesome, blame Obama.

Go away.

Are you feeling all right? I didn't blame him for what happened. If you read my post (rather, if you were able to comprehend it), you'd see that I said he was absolutely right to apologize.

I give him credit where it's due (for example, for killing terrorists). I don't like his obvious disdain for traditional American values and policies, and I think he's completely incompetent (borderline insane) with economic policy.

Your keen insight is appreciated as always...

[spence]

Just the other day you were attacking Obama for his apology...why the change in heart?

More importantly, it's a serious thread. I think your experiences in Iraq and with military leadership could be interesting and insightful. Curious what you've experienced in this context.

-spence

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Are you feeling all right? I didn't blame him for what happened. If you read my post (rather, if you were able to comprehend it), you'd see that I said he was absolutely right to apologize.

I give him credit where it's due (for example, for killing terrorists). I don't like his obvious disdain for traditional American values and policies, and I think he's completely incompetent (borderline insane) with economic policy.

Your keen insight is appreciated as always...

This thread has nothing to do with Obama, it has to do with PTSD. GTFO.

[JohnR]

Jim in CT , Likwid - both of you lighten up a bit please. Argue the facts but please in a less negative manner.

[Raven]

there's going to be a heavy price to pay whether or not
this soldier gets the death penalty or Not.

and it will be retaliatory in nature for his senseless act
with the lives of more soldiers and or civilians.

that many deployments would compromise anyone's
brain and he could have been in a support role for his last deployment.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Just the other day you were attacking Obama for his apology...why the change in heart?

More importantly, it's a serious thread. I think your experiences in Iraq and with military leadership could be interesting and insightful. Curious what you've experienced in this context.

-spence

I attacked Obama because hespent more energy apologizing for burning a Koran than he expended condemning the subsequent slaughter of innocent Americans.

In this case, an apology is clearly warranted. That would have been the perfect time to remind the Muslim world that that millions of Muslims have been liberated from other, monstrous Muslims, thanks to the US military.

That's all I said, and there's nothing illogical about it.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It only tarnishes the actions of everybody else, if we allow it to be spun that way.

So when you blame all liberals for the people harassing scalia, you were spinning?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I attacked Obama because hespent more energy apologizing for burning a Koran than he expended condemning the subsequent slaughter of innocent Americans.

The interesting thing though is that from your perspective the murders were deserving of the apology, yet to many people of Afghanistan the burnings was a worse offense.

Where do you draw the line?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

The interesting thing though is that from your perspective the murders were deserving of the apology, yet to many people of Afghanistan the burnings was a worse offense.

Where do you draw the line?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Are you saying murder is no big deal to many people in Afghanistan?

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Are you saying murder is no big deal to many people in Afghanistan?

I don't believe I said anything like that.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

Are you saying murder is no big deal to many people in Afghanistan?

I'll say it. Let me re-phrase, to many people there, murder is a big deal, it's a cause for celebration.

PaulS, I didn't blame all liberals for what happened at Wesleyan...please stop putting radical jibberish in my mouth. What I say is fair game, don't make stuff up please. I do blame any liberals who won't condemn as hateful intolerance the act of throwing condoms at a sitting justice of the supreme Court.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The interesting thing though is that from your perspective the murders were deserving of the apology, yet to many people of Afghanistan the burnings was a worse offense.

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Which shows you how insane those people are you're referring to. If a large group of people really believe that a piece of paper is worth more than a human life (any human life), then the president (especially one who has the Nobel Peace Prize under his belt) should recognize his obligation to set these people straight about their priorities, and to warn them what will happen if they target innocent westerners.

I'd also like him to tell the Muslim that they should be getting on their knees and thanking the US military for trying to free them from enslavement at the hands of other, monstrous Muslims. No greater love hath man than he who lays down his life for another, and many Americans have risjked precisely that in trying to bring freedom to these people. As one of those who has bled over there, it would sure be nice to hear him articulate it that way, especially to those who need to hear it.

[TheSpecialist]

I read this on another site, and after thinking about it, it is so true.

After reading the headlines about the US soldier who shot up Afghanistan civilians, I couldn't help noticing an irony. There is all this clamor to try this guy quickly and execute him, never mind his having suffered a traumatic brain injury.

Yet this Major Hasan, who shot up Fort Hood while screaming Allah akbar, still hasn't stood trial, and they are still debating whether he was insane, even with the clear evidence regarding his motive: slay as many infidels as possible.

So we have a guy in a war zone who cracks, and he must be executed immediately.
But this Muslim psychiatrist who was stateside in a nice safe office all day murders 13, wounds 29 of our own guys, and they try to argue the poor lad suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome, from listening to real soldiers who had actual battle experience. Two and a half years later, they still haven't tried the murderous bastard.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

I read this on another site, and after thinking about it, it is so true.

EXACTLY.

Here's the difference. The people that Hasan killed (US soldiers) have not been anointed with "victim" status by the American left. In fact, that story was buried as much as possible by the liberals, because the murderer was a Muslim, and thus he HAS been anointed with "victim"status by the American left.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

PaulS, I didn't blame all liberals for what happened at Wesleyan

But that is how your posts constantly come across. It is like if I was petty enough to start a thread "Conservative Classlessness" about the woman who yelled to Santorum to make believe it was Obama when he was at the firing range.

And I didn't see you condem that either - what does that mean?