Palin's speach

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

That's pretty friggin cheap, Spence. Not everyone googles info and spends time researching every aspect of the debate so they can look smarter then everyone else. Most of us are just speaking from the heart and learn from each other as we go. I know what "Present" means and it means he doesn't have the balls to vote an actual yes on the subject at hand because he may some day have to explain that vote.

-steve

Not cheap at all, if someone is going to parrot a talking point I'd at least expect them to understand the context.

And no, "present" doesn't mean a lack of balls...it may in fact be the right choice if you aren't sure about the nature of the bill you're voting for. It's not like these people get to read everything they vote on, and often times things change at the last minute.

-spence

[TheSpecialist]

While the republicans may favor big business, it was the dems (Clintons in particular) who forced NAFTA down our throat, that hasn't done a whole lot of good for the little guy and helped big business get manufacturing cheaper in other countries...


I like her, and her guns. She is my kind of girl.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

She is a mother, a VERY hard job, she worked in tough jobs. Unlike Obama and Biden, she worked for a living, she could fail, lose her home, not provide food for her family.

Didn't Biden loose his wife and daughter at a very young age? Hasn't he commuted home via train every day from Washington to raise his kids?

Did you know Biden is one of the poorest Senators currently holding a seat?

And you think his is a cake job? That's insulting to the Senator and family values as a whole.

Point 3 - International - I can see her (much like Obamans supporters see him) on the Internatinal stage and delivering a SOLID representation of America. She is not George Bush.

I see a Bush style "America's the best and FU if you think different" approach to foreign relations that hasn't worked the last 8 years.

This is one thing I think the Dems understand much better than the GOP.

As Fareed Zakaria writes in his new book (from memory here)... America has succeeded in globalizing the world, but has yet to globalize itsself.

Or something like that.

The point being, that in the last decade we've seen an incredible rise among other nations. We are still the global leader, but there are so many other strong nations we can't lead with a stick (alone) any longer. This goes straight up the neocon's ass, but it's reality, and Iraq is proof in the putting. China is more proof and Georgia even more.

The world has changed (read as "not changing") and our approach must change for the USA to have the necessary influence. We're not going to become irrevelant overnight, but it's already starting to happen.

I look at the Republican platform and I see more of the same. Complete denial that the way forward is the way of the past.

-spence

[buckman]

I think he voted present like 90 percent of the time. Is he that stupid or does he just want to have no position on record. He must have been to busy running for President to read the bills. I wonder how many "presents" McCain has.

[spence]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

While the republicans may favor big business, it was the dems (Clintons in particular) who forced NAFTA down our throat, that hasn't done a whole lot of good for the little guy and helped big business get manufacturing cheaper in other countries...

Blame Clinton?

Wasn't NAFTA initiated under George Bush 41?

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I wonder how many "presents" McCain has.

The point is moot. The context of voting present was as an IL House member, not as a US Senator. The procedures are different.

Most US Congress people vote so infrequently it makes one wonder

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

But the whining about the media isn't going to play outside of that hall. -spence

MSNBC and it's like have become the brunt of ridicule all over America. Decent people are disgusted by their blatant bias and indecent attacks on her. But the lunatic fringe can't see it through the glaze covering their retinas.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

MSNBC and it's like have become the brunt of ridicule all over America. Decent people are disgusted by their blatant bias and indecent attacks on her. But the lunatic fringe can't see it through the glaze covering their retinas.

Got reasonable source for your "decent people" or "indecent attacks"?

I've watched much of their coverage (along with CNN and FOX) and have found them to be very complimentary of the potential VP.

And are you sugesting that I'm part of the lunatic fringe? If so perhaps it's your eyes that are glazed.

-spence

[spence]

Looks like some more spin on Palin's part...courtesty of MSNBC for the snipah

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26550336/

-spence

[spence]

And the spin keeps coming...I'd note that factcheck.org is very neutral and the same site contains critique of the DNC remarks.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_part_ii.html

-spence

[hmahady]

Say what you want about Obama but he handles himself with class.


Howard

[spence]

Originally Posted by Karl F

just for you bil.. a pic of her... and her "guns"

[IMG][/IMG]

Fake photo.

-spence

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Didn't Biden loose his wife and daughter at a very young age? Hasn't he commuted home via train every day from Washington to raise his kids?

Did you know Biden is one of the poorest Senators currently holding a seat?

And you think his is a cake job? That's insulting to the Senator and family values as a whole.

-spence

Spence, I'm suprised you would actually use the word "poor" to describe Biden. I bet lot's of minimum wage earners trying to support families wouldn't mind making close to $200K a year. Oh, and he has most of his travel paid for, including his commute, among the other freebies and perks for being a Senator.

And while being a Senator is no "cake job", it is a little easier when you miss 30% of the votes. And think about the time he saves by not having to come up with speeches on his own. He just takes what others have written and take scredit for it. That gives him plenty of time to rush home on the train to spend time with his adult children and 5 grandchildren.

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Spence, I'm suprised you would actually use the word "poor" to describe Biden. I bet lot's of minimum wage earners trying to support families wouldn't mind making close to $200K a year. Oh, and he has most of his travel paid for, including his commute, among the other freebies and perks for being a Senator.

And while being a Senator is no "cake job", it is a little easier when you miss 30% of the votes. And think about the time he saves by not having to come up with speeches on his own. He just takes what others have written and take scredit for it. That gives him plenty of time to rush home on the train to spend time with his adult children and 5 grandchildren.

Big difference between "poor" and "poorest". The point being that he's made out to be the "elite" when in fact compared to his peers he's quite modest in means and has never been super rich. 200K might seem like a lot to you and me, but it's not a ton of money for a sales professional, and we're talking about someone trusted with helping to lead the Legislative branch of our government of 300 million people.

And the 30% figure is a red herring. By this measure alone John McCain stands at 64% votes missed! When you look at "votes cast" Joe Biden is higher than many Senators who have missed less than 10%.

-spence

[TheSpecialist]

Bill Clinton made it's legislative passage a priority in 1993

Bill Clinton was president when NAFTA was passed by the legislature.

The plan was drafted by BUsh, and never altered by Clinton before being passed.


North American Free Trade Agreement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"NAFTA" redirects here. For other uses of the acronym, see Nafta (disambiguation).
The North American Free Trade Agreement
Tratado de Libre Comercio de América del Norte
Accord de libre-échange nord-américain


Secretariats Mexico City, Ottawa and Washington, D.C.
Official languages English, French and Spanish
Membership Canada
Mexico
United States
Establishment
- Formation 1 January 1994
Area
- Total 21,783,850 km² (1st)
8,410,792 sq mi
- Water (%) 7.4
Population
- 2008 estimate 445,335,091 (3rd)
- Density 20.4/km² (195th)
52.9/sq mi
GDP (PPP) 2007 (IMF) estimate
- Total $15,857 billion (1st)
- Per capita $35,491 (14th)
GDP (nominal) 2007 (IMF) estimate
- Total $15,723 billion (2nd)
- Per capita $35,564 (18th)
Website
http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org
The North American Free Trade Agreement (Spanish: Tratado de Libre Comercio de América del Norte [TLCAN], French: Accord de libre-échange nord-américain [ALENA]) is a trilateral trade bloc in North America created by the governments of the United States, Canada, and Mexico. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) has two supplements, the North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC) and The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC). The agreements came into effect on January 1, 1994. In terms of combined purchasing power parity GDP of its members, as of 2007 the trade bloc is the largest in the world and second largest by nominal GDP comparison.
Contents [hide]
1 North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation
2 North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation
3 Further integration
4 History of the implementation
5 Effects
5.1 Trade
5.2 Industry
5.3 Environment
5.4 Agriculture
5.5 Mobility of persons
6 Criticism and controversies
6.1 Canadian disputes
6.1.1 Canadian government challenged on change in Income trust taxation
6.2 U.S. deindustrialization
6.3 Impact on Mexican farmers
6.4 Chapter 11
6.5 Chapter 19
6.6 Chapter 20
6.7 Chapter 14
7 Public opinion
8 Travel and migration
8.1 United States and Canada
8.2 The United States and Mexico
9 See also
10 References
11 External links
[edit]North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation
The North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC) was a response to environmentalists' concerns that the United States would lower its standards if the three countries did not achieve consistent environmental regulation. The NAAEC only obligates parties to enforce their own environmental laws. The NAAEC, in an endeavour to be more than a set of environmental regulations, established the North American Commission for Environmental Cooperation, a mechanism for addressing trade and environmental issues, the North American Development Bank (NADBank) for assisting and financing investments in pollution reduction, and the Border Environmental Cooperation Commission (BECC). The NADBank and the BECC have provided economic benefits to Mexico by financing 36 projects, mostly in the water sector.[1]
[edit]North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation
The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC) supplements NAFTA and endeavors to create a foundation for cooperation among the three countries for the resolution of labor problems, as well as to promote greater cooperation among trade unions and social organizations in order to fight for improved labor conditions.
[edit]Further integration

While different groups advocate for a further integration into a North American Community, sensitive issues have hindered that process. The three countries have pursued different trade policies with non-members (for example, Mexico has signed FTAs with more than 40 countries in 12 agreements), making the possibility of creating a customs union difficult to accomplish. Former President Vicente Fox of Mexico had promoted the idea of enhancing NAFTA (into what he labeled "NAFTA-Plus", or possibly a North American Community), but after the September 11, 2001 attacks, priorities in the United States changed. The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America was signed, instead, as a separate and unrelated agreement.
Given the scope of the agreement, which includes very sensitive issues in trade talks such as agriculture liberalization and environment regulation, few countries have shown interest in joining NAFTA. Instead, some countries, like Chile, preferred to negotiate three separate bilateral agreements with the three current NAFTA members, with different restrictions to liberalization of their industries and the regulation of environment protection. Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago also showed a similar interest.[2][3][4]
In an interview with Larry King on October 8, 2007, Fox described any plans for a North American single currency as a "long term, very long term" proposal. He also spoke of he and U.S. President George W. Bush's support for the Free Trade Area of the Americas as a "first step" toward "a new vision" for the Americas, "like we are trying to do with NAFTA", but then said that Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez had decided to "destroy the idea".[5]
[edit]History of the implementation



President Bill Clinton signing NAFTA into law, November 1993
NAFTA was initially pursued by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House of Representatives passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 43 Republicans, 156 Democrats, and 1 independent against),[6] and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 10 Republicans and 28 Democrats against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting -- Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), an ardent foe of NAFTA, missed the vote because of an illness in his family).[7]
[edit]Effects

[spence]

Sounds like bi-partisan legislation to me. While I wouldn't say I'm a NAFTA supporter I have met with business leaders who attribute NAFTA for helping them be successful in the USA.

-spence

[BigBo]

NAFTA may help business leaders to become successful (ie; higher profit margins = more money in their pockets), but is causing me and many of my co-workers to loose their jobs. Our company is moving much of the production to Mexico. All these manufacturing jobs that are lost to other countries are jobs that we will NEVER get back in this country.
F%ck NAFTA and F%ck anyone who supports it. Simply put, I'm out of a job soon because of it.

[The Dad Fisherman]

You might want to blame the "Dems" but the majority of "For" votes on NAFTA were republican and the majority of those "against" were democrat....says it right in the article above.

and that is the same in the senate as well as the House of reps.

Greed doesn't care about party lines

[Joe]

Would globalization not have happened without NAFTA or was it an unstoppable market force? I wish it did not happen and we retained those jobs, but that's an unreality.
I worked at a place where outsourcing and technology was taking jobs away from people doing the work I did. The writing was on the wall (for years)that it was only a matter of time.
Some people took classes, started side businesses, or learned new skills so they had options, but I was surprised that most of my co-workers passively waited for the pink slip.

[RIJIMMY]

Spence,

On MSNBC - a day or so ago, the headline read. Palin supports Nazi Sympathizer.
Its the job of the Press to INVESTIGATE, not just report. So, that Nazi synpathizer, its Pat Buchanan. Do you know who employs Pat Buchanan? MSNBC @!@!@@!!!! So why didnt they note that? MSNBC Hires Nazi sympathizers???? Its all about getting jabs in on headlines without any backing. Its nuts.

Everyone says teh Wright controversy is over, go to the website of the Trinity Church Obama was a member of for 20 years, look at their bookstore -
http://www.tucc.org/store/index.cfm
whats their featured item - A Black Liberation of Thelogy

What to know a few things about Black Liberation Theology?
Here are a few quotes -
All white men are responsible for white oppression. It is much too easy to say, "Racism is not my fault," or "I am not responsible for the country's inhumanity to the black man..
The demonic forces of racism are real for the black man. Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil."

So Obama attends a BLACK church (read their mission, its black focused) their bookstore sells and FEATURES books that spew hatred and divisive racism. FACts boys, the link is right there! Im not Karl Rove, Im not Rush Limbaugh. This his his church. Can you EVEN imagine if McCain or Palin's church believed this garbage or preached this about white peope????
You all are freakin becasue she mentions Our souldiers are doing God's task. And yet you have no issue with Obamas faith? No concerns?????????

[RIJIMMY]

you could vote for a president of the united states that has even the slightest influence by this?
The Goals Of Black Liberal Theology — Dr. Robert A. Morley, an internationally recognized scholar in the fields of theology and apologetics.

“l.The goals of BT are to turn religion into sociology, Christianity into a political agenda, Jesus into a black Marxist rebel, and the gospel into violent revolution. They are more interested in politics than preaching the gospel.

“III. The Methodology of Black Liberal Theology

“The main method employed by BT is to manipulate embittered young blacks by turning their feelings of inferiority, alienation, jealousy, hopelessness and self-hate, into racist rage against whites, Orientals and affluent blacks who are conveniently blamed for their lack of personal initiative to better their lot in life.

“IV. The Main Philosophic Error of Black Liberal Theology

“BT is based upon the philosophic error of relativism in which ‘Jesus’ is viewed as only a religious symbol which can be interpreted anyway they want. Thus it does not matter who and what the historical Jesus really was. BT invented a black Marxist Jesus to lead the way to violent revolution because such a ‘Jesus’ will serve their purpose. BT is condemned in II Cor. 11:4 and Gal. 1:8-9.

Doesnt this echo Wrights comments? The facts are there Obama supporters, there is his church, the link to Liberation Theology. Has anyone of the press asked Obama if he believes in BLT? You cannot deny its influence on his church. And you guys think Palin is a religious wacko, but then again, the press isnt telling you otherwise,,,,,

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Spence,

On MSNBC - a day or so ago, the headline read. Palin supports Nazi Sympathizer.
Its the job of the Press to INVESTIGATE, not just report. So, that Nazi synpathizer, its Pat Buchanan. Do you know who employs Pat Buchanan? MSNBC @!@!@@!!!! So why didnt they note that? MSNBC Hires Nazi sympathizers???? Its all about getting jabs in on headlines without any backing. Its nuts.

I didn't see the headline so I don't know the real context.

But looking at the actual article on MSNBC.com it's clearly not favorable of Obama...

Still, the Miami Herald this week quoted an e-mail from Obama Florida spokesman Mark Bubriski that stated: "Palin was a supporter of Pat Buchanan, a right-winger or as many Jews call him: a Nazi sympathizer."

Now before anyone goes off, there's a pretty vocal community that belives Pat Buchanan is a big anti-semite.

And regarding your second post, it's clear Obama joined that church as he was doing community work and it was the center of the community he was trying to help. Just because he attended for many years, doesn't mean he's a believer in black liberation theology. I've never read anything that would indicate this is the case either.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

yet, you posted a thread Palin - be Afraid becasue she said to pray for our soliders and that they are doing God's task?
Who has more expoure to religious wack-jobs - Obama or Palin? I am way more afraid of OBamas church. Check the facts on their website! Facts are not on the Huffington Post - thats a lib site. Go to the source.

[RIJIMMY]

more FACTS -
dont go on about Hannity, look at Wrights response. he was THE PASTOR AT OBAMAS CHURCH, MARRIED HIM, BAPTISED HIS KIDS and you're worred about Palin????

WRIGHT: The black value system, which was developed by the congregation, by laypersons of the congregation, 26 years ago, very similar to the gospel (INAUDIBLE) developed by laypersons in Nicaragua during the whole liberation theology movement, 26, 28, 30 years ago, yes.

HANNITY: All right, but we're not dealing with — this is on the Web site today. Let me just inform our audience, and I want you to respond, if you can.

It says, "Commitment to God." By the way, I'm with you, and I hope you'll pray for me, Reverend. Commitment to the black community, commitment to the black family, adherence to the black work ethic. It goes on, pledge, you know, acquired skills available to the black community, strengthening and supporting black institutions, pledging allegiance to all black leadership who have embraced the black value system, personal commitment to the embracement of the black value system.

Now, Reverend, if every time we said black, if there was a church and those words were white, wouldn't we call that church racist?

WRIGHT: No, we would call it Christianity. We've been saying that since there was a white Christianity; we've been saying that ever since white Christians took part in the slave trade; we've been saying that ever since they had churches in slave castles.

We don't have to say the word "white." We just have to live in white America, the United States of white America. That's not the issue; you're missing the issue.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Big difference between "poor" and "poorest". The point being that he's made out to be the "elite" when in fact compared to his peers he's quite modest in means and has never been super rich. 200K might seem like a lot to you and me, but it's not a ton of money for a sales professional, and we're talking about someone trusted with helping to lead the Legislative branch of our government of 300 million people.

And the 30% figure is a red herring. By this measure alone John McCain stands at 64% votes missed! When you look at "votes cast" Joe Biden is higher than many Senators who have missed less than 10%.

-spence

Spence, I appreciate your argument, but maybe saying that Biden has "one of the lowest income levels among his peers" would have been a better choice of words. "poorest" is different than "poor", but it's a derivation af the same word and using it to decribe Biden is a little over the top. Not many people are going to feel sorry for a guy making around $200K and who has many more "freebies" and "perks" handed to him than them. Remember that he writes off a lot of things that most people can't. Oh, and don't forget the income derived from his book. I'm sure he got something for that.

And he has a lot more time off than the salepeople you mentioned. Remember, the Senate is not in session all year and he gets paid whether he is there or not. Salespeople who make the big bucks are usually on commission and work long hours with only a few weeks of vacation a year. They only get paid for the sales they make. Don't diminish how hard it is to support a family when you income is directly tied to you being successful in making sales. If they don't sell, they don't get paid.

As for the voting in the Senate, I counted him as having missed the 5th most votes, behind McCain (#1), Obama (#3) and Clinton (#4). I would think that preparing to run for President and campaigning might explain why those 3 may have missed some of their votes. And I actually looked up "votes cast" and Biden only has more than 3 other Senators with less than 10% missed. Unless you want to count Craig Thomas who died last year.

And to your earlier point about him taking the train home to Delaware each day for his family. That is admirable, but he's not the only person to make great sacrifices for his family. A lot of people have suffered through terrible personal tragedies and have had to go on living. Kudos to Biden for doing what should be expected of him, because there are other people out there who wouldn't have done what he did.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

yet, you posted a thread Palin - be Afraid becasue she said to pray for our soliders and that they are doing God's task?
Who has more expoure to religious wack-jobs - Obama or Palin? I am way more afraid of OBamas church. Check the facts on their website! Facts are not on the Huffington Post - thats a lib site. Go to the source.

I'm more afraid of someone who may think they have instruction from god to kill people, than someone who believes they have instruction from god to not kill people.

-spence

[Nebe]

Didn't Charles Manson say god told him to kill?

[The Dad Fisherman]

No...it was the Beatles.

[Nebe]

hA!

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm more afraid of someone who may think they have instruction from god to kill people, than someone who believes they have instruction from god to not kill people.

-spence

I guess thats a wacky interpretation of what she said. I would think the task (now) is to assist the Iraquis in securing their nation so that there can be peace and stability.