Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

     

Left Nav S-B Home Register FAQ Members List S-B on Facebook Arcade WEAX Tides Buoys Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Right Nav

Left Container Right Container
 

Go Back   Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating » Striper Chat - Discuss stuff other than fishing ~ The Scuppers and Political talk » Political Threads

Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

 
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-05-2011, 07:25 AM   #61
RIROCKHOUND
Also known as OAK
iTrader: (0)
 
RIROCKHOUND's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Westlery, RI
Posts: 10,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
Don't forget Lybia. Another war started.
W/o troops on the ground. Apples and Oranges.

If we had done the same in Iraq, I may have felt different, but I have not supported Obama on Lybia here either...

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
RIROCKHOUND is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 08:04 AM   #62
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND View Post
W/o troops on the ground. Apples and Oranges.

If we had done the same in Iraq, I may have felt different, but I have not supported Obama on Lybia here either...
As near as I can tell we have accomplished nothing in Lybia. Nothing.

Apples and Oranges
buckman is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 08:26 AM   #63
JohnnyD
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
JohnnyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mansfield, MA
Posts: 5,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
I heard a great analogy to this. Obama is like a teenage kid who thought he knew everything, then grew up and realized Dad (GWB) was right all along.
That's a terrible analogy. What exactly was Bush "right" about? Shifting focus away from Al Qaeda and onto Iraq based on shoddy, manufactured "evidence" and then thrusting us into a Trillion Dollar war that accomplished literally nothing of value for the long-term safety of the American people?

Or was he right about the part where he helped progress this country to a point where Americans are forced to live in a Police state where granny will get diddled while trying to get on a plane because her fake hip set of a metal detector.

But hey, at least he got the guy who "tried to kill [his] daddy."
JohnnyD is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 08:44 AM   #64
RIROCKHOUND
Also known as OAK
iTrader: (0)
 
RIROCKHOUND's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Westlery, RI
Posts: 10,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
As near as I can tell we have accomplished nothing in Lybia. Nothing.

Apples and Oranges
First, we havene't accomplished much in Iraq. I would have rather they handled it like the seals just did with OBL. Samy with Ghaddafi.

Second, you made the bleeping comparision when you brought up Lybia as 'another war started'

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
RIROCKHOUND is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 09:12 AM   #65
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
That's a terrible analogy. What exactly was Bush "right" about? Shifting focus away from Al Qaeda and onto Iraq based on shoddy, manufactured "evidence" and then thrusting us into a Trillion Dollar war that accomplished literally nothing of value for the long-term safety of the American people?

Or was he right about the part where he helped progress this country to a point where Americans are forced to live in a Police state where granny will get diddled while trying to get on a plane because her fake hip set of a metal detector.

But hey, at least he got the guy who "tried to kill [his] daddy."
And the guy who had made it his life mission to kill you and your family. Patriot Act, Gitmo, enhanced interrogation,military tribunals...all Bush policies that Obama either kept or added too.

It's not a"trillion dollar war"....get your talking points from a more reliable source.
buckman is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 10:43 AM   #66
RIJIMMY
sick of bluefish
iTrader: (1)
 
RIJIMMY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 8,672
I think there is a very good argument that Bush policies led to the unrest and action in the mid-east today. Bush's actions also led to OBL living in seclusion for over 5 years, his influence greatly reduced.

making s-b.com a kinder, gentler place for all
RIJIMMY is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 07:20 PM   #67
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
In a world that Obama preached of before becoming President, Gitmo would be closed, trials would be in NY and UBL would be free.
This doesn't make any sense, unless you think the CIA and our Armed Forces are completely incompetent. Reality is that there are a lot of very effective and legal methods to get information that the experts seem to think work quite well.

You just don't seem to be able to accept the fact that Obama get's to take credit for authorizing this mission.

-spence
spence is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 07:21 PM   #68
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
It's not a"trillion dollar war"....get your talking points from a more reliable source.
Iraq? By some accounts could total 3 trillion more than the 50-60B offered by the Bush Admin at the time...

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...stiglitz200804

I believe the Iraq war is at about 800B today and will certainly pass a trillion dollars by the time the bulk of troops are out...best case.

-spence

Last edited by spence; 05-05-2011 at 07:26 PM..
spence is offline  
Old 05-05-2011, 07:48 PM   #69
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Iraq? By some accounts could total 3 trillion more than the 50-60B offered by the Bush Admin at the time...

The $3 Trillion War | Politics | Vanity Fair

I believe the Iraq war is at about 800B today and will certainly pass a trillion dollars by the time the bulk of troops are out...best case.

-spence
vanity fair?????????????? it has gotten bad
scottw is offline  
Old 05-06-2011, 10:07 AM   #70
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
This doesn't make any sense, unless you think the CIA and our Armed Forces are completely incompetent. Reality is that there are a lot of very effective and legal methods to get information that the experts seem to think work quite well.

You just don't seem to be able to accept the fact that Obama get's to take credit for authorizing this mission.

-spence
I can't qoute any woman's magazines or anything, but from what I understand, since Obama's second day in office(when he banned enhanced interrogation) the information we get is not the same as we used to get. It worked.

I credit Obama with making the right choice and using the information to kill UBL. I have never said anything negative about that.

You however are in severe denial.
buckman is offline  
Old 05-06-2011, 10:33 AM   #71
JohnnyD
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
JohnnyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mansfield, MA
Posts: 5,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
I can't qoute any woman's magazines or anything, but from what I understand
Ah yes, there's the issue.
JohnnyD is offline  
Old 05-06-2011, 11:43 AM   #72
zimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
but from what I understand,
On what is your understanding based?

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
zimmy is offline  
Old 05-06-2011, 12:36 PM   #73
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy View Post
On what is your understanding based?
Hey....I read! I also have listened to alot of what the peopel involved in all this are saying. Including many in the current administration.

You will just figure it's from Rush's show though.
buckman is offline  
Old 05-06-2011, 08:19 PM   #74
zimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
Hey....I read! I also have listened to alot of what the peopel involved in all this are saying. Including many in the current administration.

You will just figure it's from Rush's show though.
I would think that the "people involved in all this" wouldn't be saying much about classified information gathered from classified interrogations. That is why I asked. Wouldn't have thought of Rush, if you hadn't brought it up. Apparently on your conscience?

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
zimmy is offline  
Old 05-06-2011, 09:55 PM   #75
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy View Post
I would think that the "people involved in all this" wouldn't be saying much about classified information gathered from classified interrogations. That is why I asked. Wouldn't have thought of Rush, if you hadn't brought it up. Apparently on your conscience?
The head of the CIA can't seem to keep his mouth shut
buckman is offline  
Old 05-07-2011, 08:02 AM   #76
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
I can't qoute any woman's magazines or anything, but from what I understand, since Obama's second day in office(when he banned enhanced interrogation) the information we get is not the same as we used to get. It worked.
Not really a womans magazine, but it was the first link that popped up. There's plenty of others...

If you want to question this being a trillion dollar war just count the Congressional appropriations on record (around 900B) and the fact that we still have tens of thousands of troops and contractors as taxpayer liabilities. Obviously, this doesn't factor in the even more dramatic soft costs.

As for the quality of intel changing dramatically the day after Obama took office...I call bull#^&#^&#^&#^&. You're either completely off your rocker or just making things up.

As for the head of the CIA not keeping his mouth shut, did he say anything else or are you going to hinge your entire argument on one statement you're simply reading into what you want to hear?

-spence
spence is offline  
Old 05-07-2011, 09:46 AM   #77
JohnR
Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
iTrader: (1)
 
JohnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 34,943
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy View Post
I would think that the "people involved in all this" wouldn't be saying much about classified information gathered from classified interrogations.
You would think that but instead - WAY too many people are flapping their gums. Every 5 minutes there is a Breaking News new details revealed, after a break from our sponsor...

~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~

Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers


Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.


Apocalypse is Coming:
JohnR is online now  
Old 05-07-2011, 01:17 PM   #78
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Not really a womans magazine, but it was the first link that popped up. There's plenty of others...

If you want to question this being a trillion dollar war just count the Congressional appropriations on record (around 900B) and the fact that we still have tens of thousands of troops and contractors as taxpayer liabilities. Obviously, this doesn't factor in the even more dramatic soft costs.

As for the quality of intel changing dramatically the day after Obama took office...I call bull#^&#^&#^&#^&. You're either completely off your rocker or just making things up.

As for the head of the CIA not keeping his mouth shut, did he say anything else or are you going to hinge your entire argument on one statement you're simply reading into what you want to hear?

-spence
YouTube it Spence. It comes right from his mouth.
buckman is offline  
Old 05-07-2011, 01:40 PM   #79
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Not really a womans magazine, but it was the first link that popped up. There's plenty of others...

-spence
Ladies Home Journal
Teen Beat
Vogue

you should go back to comedy shows for links and info
scottw is offline  
Old 05-07-2011, 01:43 PM   #80
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
YouTube it Spence. It comes right from his mouth.
you are missing the part where the administration sent a lackey right out to explain that what came out of his mouth, didn't come out of his mouth...let me be clear aaaaaand don't spike the football
scottw is offline  
Old 05-07-2011, 02:47 PM   #81
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
YouTube it Spence. It comes right from his mouth.
What comes from his mouth? Please be more specific...

-spence
spence is offline  
Old 05-07-2011, 07:29 PM   #82
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
What comes from his mouth? Please be more specific...

-spence
NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast- msnbc.com

Watch please

Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.
"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.

Last edited by buckman; 05-07-2011 at 08:12 PM..
buckman is offline  
Old 05-07-2011, 09:41 PM   #83
Nebe
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Nebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Libtardia
Posts: 21,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND View Post
First, we havene't accomplished much in Iraq. '
$4 a gallon gas.... Check.

Billions of dollars in contracts for halliburton..... Check.

Bush and chenney accomplished what THEY wanted.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Nebe is offline  
Old 05-08-2011, 12:16 AM   #84
JohnnyD
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
JohnnyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mansfield, MA
Posts: 5,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
$4 a gallon gas.... Check.

Billions of dollars in contracts for halliburton..... Check.

Bush and chenney accomplished what THEY wanted.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
JohnnyD is offline  
Old 05-08-2011, 04:52 AM   #85
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
$4 a gallon gas.... Check.

Billions of dollars in contracts for halliburton..... Check.

Bush and chenney accomplished what THEY wanted.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Ya, that's why we went in.
buckman is offline  
Old 05-08-2011, 04:53 AM   #86
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
I thought it was because Saddam tried to kill his daddy?????
buckman is offline  
Old 05-08-2011, 08:39 AM   #87
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast- msnbc.com

Watch please

Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.
"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.
I thought we had discussed this already.

Before you can assert that waterboarding "works" you'd first want to establish if it played a signifigant part in the operation. By Panetta's own words, the information gained from detainees who had at some time (I believe years previously) been subjected to EIT's was a small piece of a large network of intel and arguably could have been gained by other means.

To give waterboarding credit for the mission success in this light doesn't seem to pass a simple logic test, and is contrary to what we do know as fact, that the primary reason we found OBL was through many years of hard work by the intelligence community.

I don't have a problem with some who believe torture is morally justified, but to use this instance as affirmation of its effectiveness is a different issue and one that doesn't seem to be supported by the known facts or the CIA Director.

-spence
spence is offline  
Old 05-08-2011, 09:59 AM   #88
buckman
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
buckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
I thought we had discussed this already.

Before you can assert that waterboarding "works" you'd first want to establish if it played a signifigant part in the operation. By Panetta's own words, the information gained from detainees who had at some time (I believe years previously) been subjected to EIT's was a small piece of a large network of intel and arguably could have been gained by other means.

To give waterboarding credit for the mission success in this light doesn't seem to pass a simple logic test, and is contrary to what we do know as fact, that the primary reason we found OBL was through many years of hard work by the intelligence community.

I don't have a problem with some who believe torture is morally justified, but to use this instance as affirmation of its effectiveness is a different issue and one that doesn't seem to be supported by the known facts or the CIA Director.

-spence
"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said

Your logic that the information would be handed over anyway or was not usefull is contrary to what the head of the CIA believes. This is not a moral issue Spence. This is life or death.

This is a NBC report......not the evil Fox network
buckman is offline  
Old 05-08-2011, 05:47 PM   #89
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman View Post
"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said
Panetta is not denying that EIT's were in the mix at some point, but he in no way is crediting them as a substantial contributor...he actually goes pretty far to make this point clear.

Quote:
Your logic that the information would be handed over anyway or was not usefull is contrary to what the head of the CIA believes. This is not a moral issue Spence. This is life or death.
For you to say that water boarding "worked" means they were able to get intel from it they wouldn't have got otherwise, and that this intel aided substantially in the hunt for Bin Laden. Cause and effect. I've yet to see anything that indicates this is the case...at all.

I did also notice that on the Sunday shows the intel people were very careful on this point...hell, even #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney danced around it...

And usually Cheney doesn't dance around anything

-spence
spence is offline  
Old 05-08-2011, 05:58 PM   #90
striperman36
Old Guy
iTrader: (0)
 
striperman36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Mansfield, MA
Posts: 8,760
Actually he's been on ice for years. Obama brought him out of the freezer to move the nation away from his fake birth certificate



Red Alert: Government Had Osama bin Laden Frozen for Years Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
striperman36 is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Please use all necessary and proper safety precautions. STAY SAFE Striper Talk Forums
Copyright 1998-20012 Striped-Bass.com