this mosque thing is blowin up for Barry

[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

A man much smarter then I once said...

"I think polling on this subject is highly suspect. Not that it doesn't reflect what people are thinking, but what exactly are they thinking?"

Wild guess, you were in the other 30% column, right?

"smarter" is certainly subjective....

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

"Link"....given the reports about Salman Pak at the time, Saddam's history of supporting terrorism and unceasing bad behavior, and probably thanks to the constant villification of Saddam including comparisons to Hitler by the Clinton administration and top democrats and the lib media all through the 90's, Americans thought it quite possible that there was some link...

Oh I agree, and we now know that it was a direct result of the Administration "marketing" a case for war based on weak and inconclusive evidence.

So the polls probably did reflect public opinion, which was a "product" of an intentional effort to manipulate.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Oh I agree, and we now know that it was a direct result of the Administration "marketing" a case for war based on weak and inconclusive evidence.

So the polls probably did reflect public opinion, which was a "product" of an intentional effort to manipulate.

-spence

you ability to lie to yourself is stunning...

you need to replace "we know"...with..."I believe" because the two are entirely different things

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

you ability to lie to yourself is stunning...

you need to replace "we know"...with..."I believe" because the two are entirely different things

When the amount of credible reporting, insider accounts and documentation is overwhelming and points to a single conclusion...the difference between "we know" and "I believe" can in fact be so small as the two are indistinguishable.

-spence

[Fly Rod]

Why has the firefighter and policemen unions been silent about this issue of the Mosque, one way or the other?

[EarnedStripes44]

This is a non issue

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

This is a non issue

yup. It really is. Its a shame there is so much anger in the world...

Religion sucks. Especially when you get into the 'my religion is better than yours ' mindset.

[Joe]

Unless this is a Holy War at its core - the Last Crusade, if you will. And all this time we've been trying desperately to delude ourselves into not believing in a holy-war-in-terrorism's-clothing. My catechism education has been at odds with my belief in freedom and democracy for some time. It would be easier to discount if events were not playing out in such a scripted, apocalyptic fashion.

[detbuch]

This would be good fodder for a South Park episode. Lots of ironic humor here.

People spouting "hallowed ground?" Did they forget to put an "S" in front of the word? Nearly 10 years and still no fabulous monument. Are the plans still going forward? Does our secular society really care any more about things sacred or profane? Sometimes it makes good fodder for the next election. In the meantime, while we impotently dither over constructing a monument on this hallowed ground, the Muslims are powerfully focused on building a mosque there.

And it must be in or in the immediate proximity of that spot. And you must understand the reason that it must be there and nowhere else. It is a bridge to peace--a reaching out to show the goodwill of the muslim community (not a large financial contribution to build the stalled monument to the fallen of 9/11, or to ease the pain of those who lost loved ones there, but . . .a mosque). Somewhat similar to a man who in some blind rage beats his wife, then realizing it was not so nice to do, he makes amends by buying himself a new set of golf clubs--a gift to show he understands her pain.

And then we get the reciprocal show of understanding and peace from the POTUS. They have a constitutional right to build that mosque, this is America. Don't we understand that? Well, of course we do--never was an issue. But . . . coming from someone who sees so much in the Constitution that doesn't exist . . . ? For folks like O and his side of politics, the Constitution is a living, breathing thing that changes with time and opinion. Just about anything, if you use enough slippery language and have judges who "interpret" it your way, is constitutional.

Perhaps we need to be reminded that things that live and breath, eventually stop doing so. And, in the limited realm of perception that we humans are prone to, death is a disappearance, not a change.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Why has the firefighter and policemen unions been silent about this issue of the Mosque, one way or the other?

Because they aren't idiotic bigots that believe in the Constitution.

Why are so many on the Right that have stated Obama stomps on the Constitution also so quick to discriminate a group based on their religion?

[Bronko]

Why are so many on the left who despise religion and anything with the word "God" in it so amped up to put a mosque at ground zero?

I mean the left spends countless fortunes fighting to get the pledge of allegiance banned from schools, crosses out of public buildings, "god" off the dollar bill and a santa off the roof at the town hall..... but are fighting for their life to have an Imam who wants America to become Sharia compliant to build a supermosque at the foot of the worst terror attack in our History?

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

This would be good fodder for a South Park episode. Lots of ironic humor here.

People spouting "hallowed ground?" Did they forget to put an "S" in front of the word? Nearly 10 years and still no fabulous monument. Are the plans still going forward? Does our secular society really care any more about things sacred or profane? Sometimes it makes good fodder for the next election. In the meantime, while we impotently dither over constructing a monument on this hallowed ground, the Muslims are powerfully focused on building a mosque there.

And it must be in or in the immediate proximity of that spot. And you must understand the reason that it must be there and nowhere else. It is a bridge to peace--a reaching out to show the goodwill of the muslim community (not a large financial contribution to build the stalled monument to the fallen of 9/11, or to ease the pain of those who lost loved ones there, but . . .a mosque). Somewhat similar to a man who in some blind rage beats his wife, then realizing it was not so nice to do, he makes amends by buying himself a new set of golf clubs--a gift to show he understands her pain.

And then we get the reciprocal show of understanding and peace from the POTUS. They have a constitutional right to build that mosque, this is America. Don't we understand that? Well, of course we do--never was an issue. But . . . coming from someone who sees so much in the Constitution that doesn't exist . . . ? For folks like O and his side of politics, the Constitution is a living, breathing thing that changes with time and opinion. Just about anything, if you use enough slippery language and have judges who "interpret" it your way, is constitutional.

Perhaps we need to be reminded that things that live and breath, eventually stop doing so. And, in the limited realm of perception that we humans are prone to, death is a disappearance, not a change.

I see Detbutch has been on a David Carradine cinematic bender

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Bronko

Why are so many on the left who despise religion and anything with the word "God" in it so amped up to put a mosque at ground zero?

I mean the left spends countless fortunes fighting to get the pledge of allegiance banned from schools, crosses out of public buildings, "god" off the dollar bill and a santa off the roof at the town hall..... but are fighting for their life to have an Imam who wants America to become Sharia compliant to build a supermosque at the foot of the worst terror attack in our History?

A fine example of what happens when your primary source of news and information are Sarah Palin's TWEETS

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Because they aren't idiotic bigots that believe in the Constitution.

Why are so many on the Right that have stated Obama stomps on the Constitution also so quick to discriminate a group based on their religion?

the small-minded run quickly to their favored insults...

Phoenix Muslim Organization says “Ground Zero Mosque” should not be built

by reneeschaferhorton on Aug. 17, 2010,

Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, president and founder of the Phoenix-based American Islamic Forum for Democracy wants to clarify a few things for President Barack Obama about the fracas over the 13-story Muslim cultural center planned for construction a few blocks from Ground Zero.

Jassar, who calls himself a “devout Muslim,” released this statement this weekend:

As an American Muslim whose family fled persecution in Syria and as someone who has stood in the face of some resistance to the building of many of our houses of worship in the U.S., I fully understand the value of standing for religious freedom in America. But President Obama’s statement about the Ground Zero mosque at last night’s White House Iftar dinner is the latest example of political correctness gone awry.

Jassar goes on to say Obama has “fundamentally misunderstood the stakes in this discussion and the sentiments of the American people. Instead, you have focused on the very issue that the Islamist propagandists wish you to– the narrative that Americans somehow need lectures about Islam, Muslims, and religious freedom.”

More from Jassar’s open letter to Obama:

This isn’t about playing nice with the bully on the playground. This is about honoring the deaths of the thousands who lost their lives on 9/11 at the hands of Muslim radicals who would do the same act again without a moment’s hesitation and who believe the world will not be whole until everyone follows Islam the way they say Islam should be followed. It is, Jassar said, about what is right.

Mr. President this is not about religious freedom. It is about the importance of the World Trade Center site to the psyche of the American People. It is about a blatant attack on our sovereignty by people whose ideology ultimately demands the elimination of our way of life. While Imam Faisal Rauf may not share their violent tendencies he does seem to share a belief that Islamic structures are a political statement and even Ground Zero should be looked upon through the lens of political Islam and not a solely American one. … ‘Park 51’, ‘The Cordoba House’ or whatever they are calling it today should not be built, not because it is not their right to do it – but because it is not right to do it.” Mr. President, your involvement in this issue is divisive not uniting. Your follow-up stating that ‘you will not speak to the wisdom of the construction of that mosque and center’ indicates a passive-aggressive meddling on your part that only marginalizes those Muslim and non-Muslim voices against it while pretending to understand both sides of the debate.
Are the majority of Muslims terrorist lunatics? No; the majority are just regular people who want to live their lives and practice their religion the way they’d like. But according to an imam who used to live in Tucson, at least 1 million of the world’s 1 billion Muslims believe the garbage spouted by Al-Qaeda and the Taliban – that the U.S. and everyone in it is Satan and must be conquered by Islam. And you know what? That crazy one percent has the will and ability to slaughter anyone who disagrees with them and laugh about it afterwards.

As a Muslim desperate to reform his faith, your remarks take us backwards from the day that my faith will come into modernity. I do not stand to eliminate Imam Rauf’s religious freedom; I stand to make sure that my children’s religious freedom will be determined by the liberty guaranteed in the American Constitution and not by clerics or leaders who are apologists for shar’iah law and will tell me what religious freedom is.

this, from Abdul Rahman Al-Rashid, a general manager of a TV station based in Dubai:

… I do not think that the majority of Muslims want to build a symbol or a worship place that tomorrow might become a place about which the terrorists and their Muslim followers boast, and which will become a shrine for Islam haters whose aim is to turn the public opinion against Islam. This is what has started to happen now; they claim that there is a mosque being built over the corpses of 3,000 killed US citizens, who were buried alive by people chanting God is great, which is the same call that will be heard from the mosque.

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by spence

A fine example of what happens when your primary source of news and information are Sarah Palin's TWEETS

-spence

Did you mean T_TS UU or Tweets?? I'm confused

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

This is a non issue

I would think you would want to ask the 3000 families and friends of those murdered on 9-11 if they think it's a non issue.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Because they aren't idiotic bigots that believe in the Constitution.

Why are so many on the Right that have stated Obama stomps on the Constitution also so quick to discriminate a group based on their religion?

Another Right wing group so quick to discriminate against a group based on their religion JD




Breitbart.tv Beck Forbidden to Pray at Kennedy Center Event

[buckman]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I would think you would want to ask the 3000 families and friends of those murdered on 9-11 if they think it's a non issue.

Some here would consider them idiotic bigots.

[Nebe]

this is great

Extremist Makeover - Homeland Edition - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/19/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

[spence]

Originally Posted by Nebe

this is great

Extremist Makeover - Homeland Edition - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/19/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Yep, once again he nails it...

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

Some here would consider them idiotic bigots.

Originally Posted by JD

"Because they aren't idiotic bigots that believe in the Constitution.
Why are so many on the Right that have stated Obama stomps on the Constitution also so quick to discriminate a group based on their religion?" .

wow, I thought that it was only right wing bigot, racist, intolerant haters that opposed the trophy mosque...maybe if some here spent less time with their primary source of news and information...Comedy Central...they wouldn't make such errors in assertions...


Mosque debate divides Democrats, especially in NY

Mosque debate divides Democrats, especially in NY - Yahoo! News

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

wow, I thought that it was only right wing bigot, racist, intolerant haters that opposed the trophy mosque...maybe if some here spent less time with their primary source of news and information...Comedy Central...they wouldn't make such errors in assertions...


Mosque debate divides Democrats, especially in NY

Mosque debate divides Democrats, especially in NY - Yahoo! News

This is I think the second time today I think you've posted stories without really reading them.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

Yep, once again he nails it...

-spence

I bet he runs for president one day.. hopefully his script writers will be on his cabinet...

[striperman36]

Hey., Barry, STFU without a tele-prompter, didn't you learn anything watching the Bushes? Leave that to Romney and Kerry.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

This is I think the second time today I think you've posted stories without really reading them.

-spence

actually I did... and it's funny that many of them oppose the buliding of the mosque for exactly the reasons stated by most others who are being labeled bigots, racists, intolerant and something about the Constitution (in other words, sane, reasonable people who the insane left can't wait to villify) and whom Nazi Pelosi would like to use the power of the government to investigate...
as usual, you and your president are on the wrong side of the issue

Politico

August 17, 2010
Categories:Congress.NY members in swing districts coming out against mosque

After almost total silence from New York elected officials over the weekend after President Obama's mosque speech (in which some members were out of town, or pocket), the reactions from members in swing districts are starting to come in — and they're almost all at odds with the president.

As I noted earlier, Rep. Michael Arcuri, a Democratic incumbent in NY-24, came out against the project.

This was the full statement from NY-13 Democratic Rep. Mike McMahon, who's facing a challenge this fall including from one law-and-order candidate, and who represents a district from which hundreds of Sept. 11 victims hail:

"The proposed plan to build a mosque by ground zero is a local land use matter that the mayor, borough president, local officials and community leaders need to address. The federal government has no role in zoning, nor should it.

“Personally, as someone who is elected to defend and uphold our Constitution, I take seriously the right to freedom of religion that it protects. This is not the first time that the construction of a house of worship at a sensitive site has been questioned and opposed, and as happened in those times, we need a compromise that respects all parties.

“We have seen very clearly in the past weeks that building a mosque two blocks from ground zero will not promote necessary interfaith dialogue, but will continue to fracture the faiths and citizens of our city and this country. As such, I am opposed to the construction of the Cordoba Center at the currently-proposed location and urge all parties to work with local community leaders to find a more appropriate site.

“Muslim Americans deserve the right to practice their faith — as we all do. I believe a new location is the right compromise so that Muslim Americans can worship without eliciting feelings that push us away from our country's basic tenet of religious acceptance while the families of 9/11 victims obtain the peace of mind they deserve.”


And via Newsday, Rep. Steve Israel, the Democrat in NY-2, said, "While they have a constitutional right to build the mosque, it would be better if they had demonstrated more sensitivity to the families of 9/11 victims. I urge them to do so before proceeding further."

More Democrats against the GZ mosque

August 17, 2010 12:49 PM By Matthew Shaffer
New York Democrats are quickly declaring opposition to the GZ mosque. Rep. Michael Arcuri (D., N.Y.) said in a statement:

“The pain felt by many Americans from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks is still very real, and I can understand how the thought of building a mosque near Ground Zero could reopen those wounds. For the sake of the victims and their families, I think another location should be chosen.”
Arcuri saw the obvious — encouraging the choice of another location does not entail a violation of First Amendment rights or freedom of religion. This was the theme for a deluge of Democratic representatives from the Empire State.

Rep. Mike McMahon issued an eloquent statement. A highlight:

“This is not the first time that the construction of a house of worship at a sensitive site has been questioned and opposed… Muslim Americans deserve the right to practice their faith – as we all do. I believe a new location is the right compromise so that Muslim Americans can worship … while the families of 9/11 victims obtain the peace of mind they deserve.”
And Rep. Steve Israel:

“While they have a constitutional right to build the mosque, it would be better if they had demonstrated more sensitivity to the families of 9/11 victims. I urge them to do so before proceeding further.”

And Rep. Tim Bishop:

“Ground Zero is sacred ground and should unite us. If the group seeking to build the mosque is sincere in its efforts to bring people together, I would urge them to seek an alternative location which is less divisive. I dispute the wisdom of building at that location, not the constitutional right.”

They were contradicted by one fellow New York Democrat. According to Rep. Anthony Weiner, for a “member of Congress [to be] weighing in on this stuff” would be a “violation of the clear separation of church and state.” As the New York Post replied, “Huh?” If Weiner still believes that, when will he condemn his fellow Dems for clear violations of our founding principles?

That brings the tally of Democrats opposing the Ground Zero mosque to at least five congressmen (the New Yorkers plus Altmire), one Senate majority leader, and 54 percent of their own voters

Rep. Tim Bishop, whose NY-1 district has three GOP challengers duking it out, said, "As a New Yorker, I believe ground zero is sacred ground and should unite us. If the group seeking to build the mosque is sincere in its efforts to bring people together, I would urge them to seek an alternative location which is less divisive. I dispute the wisdom of building at that location, not the constitutional right."

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

Another Right wing group so quick to discriminate against a group based on their religion JD




Breitbart.tv Beck Forbidden to Pray at Kennedy Center Event

Did they ask his religion before saying that he couldn't start his speech with an opening prayer? Unless the conversation was something like, "Oh, you're Mormon? Sorry, we don't allow your people to pray here," then I'm trying to understand your point.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Did they ask his religion before saying that he couldn't start his speech with an opening prayer? Unless the conversation was something like, "Oh, you're Mormon? Sorry, we don't allow your people to pray here," then I'm trying to understand your point.

his point is that in this case the Kennedy Center, which is essentially a government building(built and maintained with federal funds), tried to stop prayer....noone has suggested that the muslims don't have a Constitutional right right to build a mosque, to worship freely and to pray....the 1st Ammendment guarantees that "GOVERNMENT" may not establish a religeon nor prohibit the free exercise of and the 14th to some extent through equal protection, but these are limits on government...Government is not stopping the construction of the mosque nor are they stopping the free exercise of religeon in the Mosque case...in fact the local govt. is apparently in favor...it's the American People both locally and Nationwide that oppose the location for obvious reasons and they are perfectly within their rights to voice that opinion...if they'd chosen any other site there would not have been peep...the site was chosen to be provocative, ....in the Beck case it is indeed government that is/was "prohibiting the free exercise of"....

so we have the spectacle of Nazi Pelosi, who would like to USE the POWER of government to investigate those opposed to the mosque...we have SOME MEMBERS of the least tolerant religeon on the planet screaming demands for tolerance with straw man Constitutional protections and we have the overwhelming majority of Americans who simply want the builders to reconsider the location of the mosque now under attack from the radical left in this country led by a radical president and the power of government that they currently wield....very nice

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf after September 11, 2001:

"The United States and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

actually I did... and it's funny that many of them oppose the buliding of the mosque for exactly the reasons stated by most others who are being labeled bigots, racists, intolerant and something about the Constitution (in other words, sane, reasonable people who the insane left can't wait to villify) and whom Nazi Pelosi would like to use the power of the government to investigate...
as usual, you and your president are on the wrong side of the issue

Wow, you had to really manipulate those ideas to get that to make sense.

The opposition from the Left and Islamic voices is based primarily in the notion that this entire debate is divisive and they want it to go away. Some Dems are afraid of reelection and don't want to take a strong position.

The opposition from the Right is founded on blending moderate and radical Muslims together exploiting existing tension and stereotypes.

Both are wrong.

There was an interesting interview this morning with the wife of the Imam and question and the Executive Director of the JCC (Jewish Community Center) in NYC who helped plan the Cordoba House. Hell, the freaking thing is being modeled after the JCC!

What's insensitive to the 9/11 families is the Right wing punditry rubbing salt in the wounds from that terrible day to score cheap political points, further dividing the nation and fueling anti-Islamic sentiment. They're making America weaker at home and inspiring our enemies abroad.

As I've said before, this debate isn't even about the actual community center but just the controversy surrounding it. It's one gigantic circle jerk where everybody looses.

Wake up.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Wow, you had to really manipulate those ideas to get that to make sense.

The opposition from the Left and Islamic voices is based primarily in the notion that this entire debate is divisive and they want it to go away. Some Dems are afraid of reelection and don't want to take a strong position.

The opposition from the Right is founded on blending moderate and radical Muslims together exploiting existing tension and stereotypes.

Both are wrong.

There was an interesting interview this morning with the wife of the Imam and question and the Executive Director of the JCC (Jewish Community Center) in NYC who helped plan the Cordoba House. Hell, the freaking thing is being modeled after the JCC!

What's insensitive to the 9/11 families is the Right wing punditry rubbing salt in the wounds from that terrible day to score cheap political points, further dividing the nation and fueling anti-Islamic sentiment. They're making America weaker at home and inspiring our enemies abroad.

As I've said before, this debate isn't even about the actual community center but just the controversy surrounding it. It's one gigantic circle jerk where everybody looses.

Wake up.

-spence

that is very weak....

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

that is very weak....

Great response. I was fully expecting a 12 MB cut and paste retort on the failings of Jimmy Carter.

-spence