Movie 13 Hours will re-open Benghazi discussion

[Jim in CT]

I read the book, I will see the movie. I have seen the 3 security operators (3 of the 5 who are going out in public).

Almost 12 hours had passed from the time the first shots were fired, to the time that the 2 former SEALs were killed back at the CIA annex. 12 hours. In that time, they couldn't get any air assets to Benghazi, other than an unarmed drone?

Not buying it. we had assets in southern Europe and Africa. Christ, an F-16 from Massachusetts could probably get there in 12 hours.

The families of th efallen (families of at least 3 of the 4) say that at the airport, Hilary told them that the filmmaker (an American citizen) was responsible for the attack, and that she was going to have him arrested. She denies saying this. The families insist she is saying it.

She is a serial liar. We know this. We know she lied about coming under sniper fire. we know she lied when she said that the GOP wa sframing Bill to make it look like he was cheating on her. So who do we believe?

I don't claim to be objective, as I truly believe that she is one of the most revolting, self-serving, slimy people in the country. But I hope this film re-opens those wounds for her, because she has it coming.

If she did truly tell the families it was because of the video, and now she's claiming that THEY are lying...there's a special place in hell fo rher.

[Slipknot]

she was a liar 30 years ago and she is still a liar

God help us all

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

she was a liar 30 years ago and she is still a liar

God help us all

PolitiFact ranks ALL of the Repub. candidates as being more untruthful than her.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

she was a liar 30 years ago and she is still a liar

God help us all

Yes, we should believe the liar in chief rather than those heroes in the action
and the parents of the slain heroes. Pfft-

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Yes, we should believe the liar in chief rather than those heroes in the action
and the parents of the slain heroes. Pfft-

Yes, because the chain of command and military who investigated the entire event know nothing compared to the parents of those killed.

Really?

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, because the chain of command and military who investigated the entire event know nothing compared to the parents of those killed.

Really?

So you're saying what happened on the ground by those that were there,
and the slain Heroes parents who heard Hillary's video explanation have
something to gain by lying?
Common sense says the only one to gain by
lies is Hillary and past behavior is a good indication of present behavior.
She has lied many times before, and imho lied here trying to blame a video.

I guess when she left the White House broke, she took the furniture
and art work so she could have a yard sale in order to survive. LOL

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

So you're saying what happened on the ground by those that were there, and the slain Heroes parents who heard Hillary's video explanation have
something to gain by lying?

We've covered this about 100 times already.

There was no stand down order. A local officer telling his guys not to rush into an unknown situation while they rally militia backup is not a stand down order. This has been investigated to death.

When the bodies arrived back in the US the video was still being flagged by the CIA as a primary motivation.

But hey, if it's on the big screen it must be true right?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, because the chain of command and military who investigated the entire event know nothing compared to the parents of those killed.

Really?

The parents don't have an agenda . The "chain of command's " boss did
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

The parents don't have an agenda . The "chain of command's " boss did
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I think some of the parents have been shameless exploited by elements of the media.

As for agendas, usually when something stinks you'll figure it out pretty quickly. There still is to my knowledge, other than a few guys frustrated they weren't allowed to rush into an unknown firefight, evidence of any stand down order that would have helped save American lives.

But if a movie studio can make millions exploiting the situation I'm sure you're all for it.

[spence]

I love it, Jim is now getting his facts from Hollywood.

Expect FOX to push this as the breaking story of the century.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, Jim is now getting his facts from Hollywood.

Expect FOX to push this as the breaking story of the century.

\

(1) Spence, what did I say that is factually incorrect? I'm all ears.

(2) The movie isn't out yet. My facts are from the book, what the surviving operators have said, and what the families of the fallen have said.

[Nebe]

What you fail to realize is Hillary is not going to be the Democratic Party candidate.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

What you fail to realize is Hillary is not going to be the Democratic Party candidate.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

nice....correct again...you're on a roll buddy....she can blame the vast right wing conspiracy for this one

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

What you fail to realize is Hillary is not going to be the Democratic Party candidate.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Do you have any polls outside of Iowa or NH, that show Bernie anywhere near her?

I would love nothing more than to see Bernie as the candidate. I see no indication that it's mathematically possible.

Iowa and New Hampshire have a long history of going for fringe candidates (both parties) who quickly flame out.

And if NH goes for Bernie,m they need a new motto for their license plates, because "live free or die" doesn't describe a state that voted twice for Weird Harold and then went for a socialist.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Do you have any polls outside of Iowa or NH, that show Bernie anywhere near her?

I would love nothing more than to see Bernie as the candidate. I see no indication that it's mathematically possible.

Iowa and New Hampshire have a long history of going for fringe candidates (both parties) who quickly flame out.

And if NH goes for Bernie,m they need a new motto for their license plates, because "live free or die" doesn't describe a state that voted twice for Weird Harold and then went for a socialist.

If there's one thing I have learned on my short time on this planet is that there are 2 types of people. People who think in black and white and people who think in grey. Black and white rely on solid facts and never deviate. People who think in the grey use facts and also connect the dots.

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

If there's one thing I have learned on my short time on this planet is that there are 2 types of people. People who think in black and white and people who think in grey. Black and white rely on solid facts and never deviate. People who think in the grey use facts and also connect the dots.

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
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Bernie is no corporate shill. I agree it's not good if a candidate has been bought by big business. Where you and I disagree, is that I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to be declaring war against business, either. In this country, lots of people derive lots of benefits from big business.

I worked at Travelers, Aetna, and The Hartford. Huge businesses. Tens of thousands of good jobs. On top o fthat, they were good corporate citizens who donated big $$ to local communities, gave employees time off to donate time to charities like Habitat For Humanity, and encouraged charitable giving by matching contributions taht we made to charities. These companies will pay for employees to get additional college degrees. Evil? Hardly.

Are Cruz and Rubio known liars?

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Are Cruz and Rubio known liars?

Nope. But are they Corperate shills?? Look at their donors.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

feel the Bern baby!!!

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe;1091189

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
[size=1

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Donald Trump ... And he's got FU money . I'm thinking he isn't going to be bought
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[PaulS]

It just shows how the military is covering up for her bc they want her to be President. You would think someone would do an investigation and get to the bottom of this.

[wdmso]

12 hrs seems like a long time in Hindsight but I highly doubt that Washington had a clear picture ASAP.. Those men who died defending died doing what they were paid to do they accepted the risk and should be seen as heros .. Not sure how Air support would have changed the outcome The distance from Aviano Air Force Base (AFB) in Italy to Benghazi is 1044 miles again this sounds easy if Aviano had f16s on the runway fueled and armed and even if launched an hour or 2 after the attack started add filght time and time on target danger close on a 500lb bomb is Mk-82 LD 500-lb bomb is 250 425 meters whos talking to the planes and do they know where other friendly forces are many variables ? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-23-1/appf.pdf

Ambassador Steven's who one would suspect had the most current intell felt it was safe to be so far from Tripoli "Driving distance from Tripoli to Benghazi is 998 kilometers (620 miles)" yes it was ugly but it seems we dont mention all who were not killed .. and the movie and the book i feel were made to cash in .. not because some moral high ground to set the record straight . kinda of like the 2 seals saying they kill bin laden ... I wasn't there but my comments are formulated by my Combat experiences as in Infantry Plt Sgt in Iraq and how information flows thru the system we call the Armed forces .. its called the fog of war for a reason Black hawk down comes to mind

[spence]

Originally Posted by wdmso

12 hrs seems like a long time in Hindsight but I highly doubt that Washington had a clear picture ASAP.. Those men who died defending died doing what they were paid to do they accepted the risk and should be seen as heros .. Not sure how Air support would have changed the outcome The distance from Aviano Air Force Base (AFB) in Italy to Benghazi is 1044 miles again this sounds easy if Aviano had f16s on the runway fueled and armed and even if launched an hour or 2 after the attack started add filght time and time on target danger close on a 500lb bomb is Mk-82 LD 500-lb bomb is 250 425 meters whos talking to the planes and do they know where other friendly forces are many variables ? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-23-1/appf.pdf

Ambassador Steven's who one would suspect had the most current intell felt it was safe to be so far from Tripoli "Driving distance from Tripoli to Benghazi is 998 kilometers (620 miles)" yes it was ugly but it seems we dont mention all who were not killed .. and the movie and the book i feel were made to cash in .. not because some moral high ground to set the record straight . kinda of like the 2 seals saying they kill bin laden ... I wasn't there but my comments are formulated by my Combat experiences as in Infantry Plt Sgt in Iraq and how information flows thru the system we call the Armed forces .. its called the fog of war for a reason

Would you please stop littering this forum with reasoned posts

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

.. Not sure how Air support would have changed the outcome The distance from Aviano Air Force Base (AFB) in Italy to Benghazi is 1044 miles again this sounds easy if Aviano had f16s on the runway fueled and armed and even if launched an hour or 2 after the attack started add filght time and time on target danger close on a 500lb bomb is Mk-82 LD 500-lb bomb is 250 425 meters whos talking to the planes and do they know where other friendly forces are many variables ? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-23-1/appf.pdf

Ambassador Steven's who one would suspect had the most current intell felt it was safe to be so far from Tripoli "Driving distance from Tripoli to Benghazi is 998 kilometers (620 miles)" yes it was ugly but it seems we dont mention all who were not killed .. and the movie and the book i feel were made to cash in .. not because some moral high ground to set the record straight . kinda of like the 2 seals saying they kill bin laden ... I wasn't there but my comments are formulated by my Combat experiences as in Infantry Plt Sgt in Iraq and how information flows thru the system we call the Armed forces .. its called the fog of war for a reason Black hawk down comes to mind

"sure how Air support would have changed the outcome "

Due respect, if you don't know that, you don't know what you're talking about. There is a reason why those there were asking for air support. Air support easily could have prevented the rebels from setting up mortars, which is what killed the last two.

This was not the invasion of Normandy in terms of complexity. We have teams all over the world called "quick reaction forces", and in that moniker, the words "quick reaction" mean exactly what they say. Quick. Reaction.

The folks on the ground were telling outside channels what was happening...estimates of enemy strength, what weapons they had, etc. We would not have been going in blind.

"whos talking to the planes "

The people on the ground, former Marines and SEALs, are more than capable of doing that.

"do they know where other friendly forces are many variables ?"

Again, the guys on the ground had strobes and lasers and radios.

This was well within the capabilities of the US military. This is not an overly complicated scenario.

If an air asset sees armed Muslims aiming a mortar at a US compound which is under attack, you don 't need to be Steven Hawking to figure out what's going on.

My hindsight is 20/20, for sure. But this was very do-able.
Ambassador Steven's who one would suspect had the most current intell felt it was safe to be so far from Tripoli "

He repeatedly asked for more security which was denied. The book goes into his many requests, and the specific reasons he made them.


"

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"sure how Air support would have changed the outcome "

Due respect, if you don't know that, you don't know what you're talking about. There is a reason why those there were asking for air support. Air support easily could have prevented the rebels from setting up mortars, which is what killed the last two.

This was not the invasion of Normandy in terms of complexity. We have teams all over the world called "quick reaction forces", and in that moniker, the words "quick reaction" mean exactly what they say. Quick. Reaction.

The folks on the ground were telling outside channels what was happening...estimates of enemy strength, what weapons they had, etc. We would not have been going in blind.

"whos talking to the planes "

The people on the ground, former Marines and SEALs, are more than capable of doing that.

"do they know where other friendly forces are many variables ?"

Again, the guys on the ground had strobes and lasers and radios.

This was well within the capabilities of the US military. This is not an overly complicated scenario.

If an air asset sees armed Muslims aiming a mortar at a US compound which is under attack, you don 't need to be Steven Hawking to figure out what's going on.

My hindsight is 20/20, for sure. But this was very do-able.
Ambassador Steven's who one would suspect had the most current intell felt it was safe to be so far from Tripoli "

He repeatedly asked for more security which was denied. The book goes into his many requests, and the specific reasons he made them.


"

As for not knowing what one is talking about .. the Air power angle is just Monday morning quarterbacking when an F16 can pick out a mortar Crew from 20,000.00 feet with out eyes on with out the ground telling them where it is in a city is pure fantasy.. and oddly enough my MOS was 81mm Mortar Gunner and we could set up fire leave before the 1st round impacted the target

"quick reaction" another fantasy re enforced by the Movies .. yes we have them but they are That quick to travel thousands of miles in 12 hrs and please dont suggest the could have Jumped in or drove or landed near the site

He repeatedly asked for more security which was denied. as was many other Ambassadors request where .. but again he felt it was safe to be in Benghazi He's the Boss

The people on the ground, former Marines and SEALs, are more than capable of doing that. Yes they are but that doesn't translate into instant success

What makes the death of theses men so different then the men who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan.. why the outrage from the right I know the Answer it about Hillary .. and thats just wrong not for her but for all our fallen men nad women .. Because wheres the outrage for them no one ever ask where their Air cover was or why was there an IED in the road or why didn't we stop that rocket from landing on the Base .. its comes with the Job we accepted that when we signed up as did they .. Let it go already

[buckman]

Originally Posted by wdmso

What makes the death of theses men so different then the men who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan.. why the outrage from the right I know the Answer it about Hillary .. and thats just wrong not for her but for all our fallen men nad women .. Because wheres the outrage for them no one ever ask where their Air cover was or why was there an IED in the road or why didn't we stop that rocket from landing on the Base .. its comes with the Job we accepted that when we signed up as did they .. Let it go already

This is a pathetic comment . You clearly only respect the left half of the country , as you are ready to take any cheap shot you can at conservatives.
If you think Hillary will make a good President , than you are one of a very few in the military that thinks so , Why do you think that is ?
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[Fly Rod]

The true story of 3 surviors of Benghazi

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

As for not knowing what one is talking about .. the Air power angle is just Monday morning quarterbacking when an F16 can pick out a mortar Crew from 20,000.00 feet with out eyes on with out the ground telling them where it is in a city is pure fantasy.. and oddly enough my MOS was 81mm Mortar Gunner and we could set up fire leave before the 1st round impacted the target

"quick reaction" another fantasy re enforced by the Movies .. yes we have them but they are That quick to travel thousands of miles in 12 hrs and please dont suggest the could have Jumped in or drove or landed near the site

He repeatedly asked for more security which was denied. as was many other Ambassadors request where .. but again he felt it was safe to be in Benghazi He's the Boss

The people on the ground, former Marines and SEALs, are more than capable of doing that. Yes they are but that doesn't translate into instant success

What makes the death of theses men so different then the men who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan.. why the outrage from the right I know the Answer it about Hillary .. and thats just wrong not for her but for all our fallen men nad women .. Because wheres the outrage for them no one ever ask where their Air cover was or why was there an IED in the road or why didn't we stop that rocket from landing on the Base .. its comes with the Job we accepted that when we signed up as did they .. Let it go already

An F-16 would have a tough time target a mortar crew. But what it can do, is make the enemy too scared to set up a mortar crew. And there are other planes that can easily target a mortar crew, and I promise you that we had some within a 12 hour flight of Benghazi. If not, then Obama should be impeached.

"we could set up fire leave before the 1st round impacted the target "

I'll wager that sh*tkicking bandits aren't as well trained.

You're missing the point. We didn't even try. They fought for 12 hours, and they got exactly zip in terms of support from us. That doesn't anger you? Not at all? When we send people into harm's way, we don't owe them better than that?

We sat on our hands while these guys fought for their lives, for 12 hours. If large numbers of Americans aren't bothered by that, then what in God's name have we become?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

What makes the death of theses men so different then the men who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan..

Can you point out an example of men and women who died in Iraq or Afghanistan, who called for help for 12 hours, and were ignored? Because that's what bothers people.

People die in war. These deaths were likely preventable.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, Jim is now getting his facts from Hollywood.

Expect FOX to push this as the breaking story of the century.

Read the book. I have not seen the movie so I cannot comment on that. The book is very interesting and brings you along in a very methodical way.

Originally Posted by Nebe

What you fail to realize is Hillary is not going to be the Democratic Party candidate.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Felon or Communist - I cannot decide.

Originally Posted by wdmso

12 hrs seems like a long time in Hindsight but I highly doubt that Washington had a clear picture ASAP.. Those men who died defending died doing what they were paid to do they accepted the risk and should be seen as heros .. Not sure how Air support would have changed the outcome The distance from Aviano Air Force Base (AFB) in Italy to Benghazi is 1044 miles again this sounds easy if Aviano had f16s on the runway fueled and armed and even if launched an hour or 2 after the attack started add filght time and time on target danger close on a 500lb bomb is Mk-82 LD 500-lb bomb is 250 425 meters whos talking to the planes and do they know where other friendly forces are many variables ? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-23-1/appf.pdf

Ambassador Steven's who one would suspect had the most current intell felt it was safe to be so far from Tripoli "Driving distance from Tripoli to Benghazi is 998 kilometers (620 miles)" yes it was ugly but it seems we dont mention all who were not killed .. and the movie and the book i feel were made to cash in .. not because some moral high ground to set the record straight . kinda of like the 2 seals saying they kill bin laden ... I wasn't there but my comments are formulated by my Combat experiences as in Infantry Plt Sgt in Iraq and how information flows thru the system we call the Armed forces .. its called the fog of war for a reason Black hawk down comes to mind

"Supposedly" there were AC130s on the ramp at Sigonella in Sicily (450mi, 2 hour flight time - 3 hours on station assuming 1 hour). I do not know if that is true or not. F16s out of Aviano were in range , 2 hours flight time, F16s from Bitburg 3 hours flight, F15e out of Incirlik 2 hours, all possible, all within reason. There are B1s at Qatar that are 4 hours flight time. And yes, all could have reasons why they were not available. However, if none of these were available with a one hour alert than there is an institutional problem and we are beyond merely atrophy.

SGT in Iraq - I owe you a beer

Originally Posted by spence

We've covered this about 100 times already.

There was no stand down order. A local officer telling his guys not to rush into an unknown situation while they rally militia backup is not a stand down order. This has been investigated to death.

Perhaps, perhaps not

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Can you point out an example of men and women who died in Iraq or Afghanistan, who called for help for 12 hours, and were ignored? Because that's what bothers people.

Call for help for 12 hours and ignored? Happens a lot doesn't it? Maybe not ignored, but deciding not to blow stuff up due to collateral damage happens all the time, no?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

As for not knowing what one is talking about .. the Air power angle is just Monday morning quarterbacking when an F16 can pick out a mortar Crew from 20,000.00 feet with out eyes on with out the ground telling them where it is in a city is pure fantasy.. and oddly enough my MOS was 81mm Mortar Gunner and we could set up fire leave before the 1st round impacted the target

"quick reaction" another fantasy re enforced by the Movies .. yes we have them but they are That quick to travel thousands of miles in 12 hrs and please dont suggest the could have Jumped in or drove or landed near the site

He repeatedly asked for more security which was denied. as was many other Ambassadors request where .. but again he felt it was safe to be in Benghazi He's the Boss

The people on the ground, former Marines and SEALs, are more than capable of doing that. Yes they are but that doesn't translate into instant success

What makes the death of theses men so different then the men who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan.. why the outrage from the right I know the Answer it about Hillary .. and thats just wrong not for her but for all our fallen men nad women .. Because wheres the outrage for them no one ever ask where their Air cover was or why was there an IED in the road or why didn't we stop that rocket from landing on the Base .. its comes with the Job we accepted that when we signed up as did they .. Let it go already

That was a reasoned post, with some good points. Sorry for saying you don't know what you're talking about, obviously you do, and I had no business saying that.