So.....

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

If the shoe fits,wear it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Well you and Trump do wear them well.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Did you hear any Republican stand in the the House and say "Donald Trump is a good man, he's an honest man"?

No, Pete, no one can make that claim with a straight face. But being a jerk, isn't an impeachable offense.

When did asking for an investigation, become synonymous with asking for "dirt" on someone? Asking for a doctored photo of Biden with hookers to use against him, is one thing. Asking for an investigation to uncover the truth, is something else. Isn't it? I'm not saying Trump wouldn't gain politically from that investigation, but that alone doesn't mean there isn't good reason for an investigatin.

But you finally conceded the issue here, not that there was an actual crime, but that this is about people hating Trump.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

No, Pete, no one can make that claim with a straight face. But being a jerk, isn't an impeachable offense.

When did asking for an ivestigation, become synonymous with asking for "dirt" on someone? Asking for a doctored photo of Biden with hookers to use against him, is one thing. Asking for an investigation to uncover the truth, is something else. Isn't it? I'm not sayong Trump wouldn't gain politically from that investigation, but that alone doesn't mean there isn't good reason for an investigatin.

But you finally conceded the issue here, not that there was an actual crime, but that this is about people hating Trump.

Asking for the "announcement" of an investigation is what happened.

Now show me any predicate for the investigation.

Here's the timeline of the Bidens up to the point where VP Biden made the assertion at the CFR about forcing Ukraine to do something about corruption.

April 2014 – Hunter Biden joins Ukrainian firm Burisma

Joe Biden’s younger son, Hunter Biden, joins the board of Burisma Holdings, the largest private oil and gas extracting company in Ukraine, controlled by founder Mykola Zlochevskiy, who had served as a Cabinet minister under former pro-Russian Presidents Leonid Kuchma and Yanukovych. Both administrations had been suspected of corruption, and once they were ousted, successor administrations pledging reforms targeted previous officials, including Zlochevskiy, for investigation. Allegations against Zlochevskiy center on the funding schemes he used to form the company in 2002. But cases against him stall in each instance.

An American business partner of Hunter Biden, Devon Archer, also joins the board. The company issues a press release about the Biden appointment in May (see below). The appointment draws criticism for the potential perception of a conflict of interest with Vice President Biden’s role as the White House’s point man on Ukraine. News reports later in 2014 reveal that Hunter Biden had been discharged from the Navy in February for testing positive for cocaine (clearly just months before the Burisma board appointment).

April 16, 2014 – U.K. investigates Burisma owner Mykola Zlochevskiy

The U.K.’s Serious Fraud Office (SFO) blocks accounts of Burisma’s majority shareholder, Mykola Zlochevskiy. A British court conducts a hearing on Dec. 3-5, 2014, and unblocks the accounts in a Jan. 21, 2015 judgment, (full text), finding that none of the evidence “establishes reasonable grounds for a belief that his assets were unlawfully acquired as a result of misconduct in public office.” The SFO apparently continued its investigation until at least May 2015, when a spokeswoman told The Guardian, “We are disappointed we were not provided with the evidence by authorities in the Ukraine necessary to keep this restraint order in place.” The newspaper said she “declined to comment further because she said the investigation was ongoing.” (In September 2015, U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt heavily criticizes officials in the Office of Prosecutor General in a public speech for not cooperating sufficiently with and even undermining the British investigation. See below.)

Special note: In his congressional deposition, George Kent explained that the administration had worked with British authorities on the case to seize Zlochevskiy’s assets. “That was an issue of our interest because we had made a commitment to the Ukrainian Government in 2014 to try to recover an estimated tens of billions of dollars of stolen assets out of the country. The first case that U.S., U.K., and Ukrainian investigators worked on was a case against Zlochevsky.”

May 12, 2014 – Burisma Holdings issues a press release saying Hunter Biden has joined its board, and that he will be “in charge of the Holdings’ legal unit and will provide support for the company among international organizations.” The release cites his then-current positions as counsel to New York-based law firm Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP and co-founder and a managing partner of investment advisory firm Rosemont Seneca Partners, where he also served as board chairman.

May 25, 2014 – Chocolate and confectionary magnate/oligarch Petro Poroshenko wins the presidency in Ukraine in an election to succeed Yanukovych on a platform of turning Ukraine back to the West. Poroshenko previously had served as foreign minister and minister of trade and economic development.

June 7, 2014 – Petro Poroshenko takes office as president of Ukraine.

June 19, 2014 – The Ukrainian Parliament approves Poroshenko’s appointment of former law enforcement officer and member of Parliament Vitaly Yarema as prosecutor general.

Aug. 5, 2014 – Ukraine investigation of Burisma

Ukrainian Prosecutor General Vitaly Yarema opens an investigation of Burisma owner Mykola Zlochevskiy on suspicion of “unlawful enrichment.” (The investigation is referenced in the January 2015 U.K. court judgment, which concludes that the Ukrainian probe might have been started as a result of a misinterpretation of the British account freeze.) Zlochevskiy’s American lawyer, John Buretta, a former U.S. deputy assistant attorney general, says in a 2017 Q&A on the Burisma website that a court in Kyiv ordered the case closed in September 2016 because no evidence of wrongdoing had been presented. While suspicions remain over how Zlochevskiy obtained his wealth and what happened to taxpayer money while he held public office, the British judge in the January 2015 U.K. judgment observed, “Allegations of corruption against political opponents appear to have been a feature of Ukrainian political life at this time.”

Oct. 14, 2014 – Ramping up Ukraine anti-corruption forces

Ukraine’s Parliament passes a law establishing the National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU), a priority of anti-corruption campaigners who’d helped lead the revolution and of the U.S. government (led by Biden) and other international backers of Ukraine. The bureau, which is to include a special prosecutor for certain corruption cases, was created in part because of the recognized ineffectiveness and corruption of the Prosecutor General’s Office and the country’s judiciary. The country’s anti-corruption plans also include a special High Anti-Corruption Court, which Poroshenko and Parliament slow-rolled until domestic and foreign advocates again exerted pressure over the past year. In fact, the U.S. and Europe required the Ukrainian government to fund NABU in exchange for financial aid. NABU’s early years are an uphill battle in the face of documented efforts by Parliament and the Prosecutor General’s Office to undermine its work.

NABU later becomes a target of Giuliani’s (see Aug. 14, 2016 item below).

Early February 2015 — U.S. administration conveys harsh criticism of prosecutor general office for its coverup of Zlochevsky/Burisma

George Kent, who was then-senior anti-corruption coordinator in the State Department’s European Bureau and had at the time been selected for deputy chief of mission at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv, met in the Ukrainian capital with a deputy prosecutor from Prosecutor General Yarema’s office, according to his congressional testimony. Kent, who had long pushed Ukrainian prosecutors for investigations into Zlochevsky, “scolded” the deputy prosecutor for having “shut the criminal case” that had been the basis for a U.K. court freezing Zlochevsky’s assets, demanding, “Who took the bribe and how much was it?,” Kent asked. Kent’s effort was coordinated with the Justice Department,

Feb. 10, 2015 – Viktor Shokin takes office as Ukraine’s prosecutor general, replacing Yarema.

Sept. 24, 2015 – U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt excoriates officials in the Prosecutor General’s Office for stymying anti-corruption investigations, including those involving Burisma

Pyatt’s speech was part of a regular drumbeat by U.S. and other Western leaders, including Vice President Biden, and a swath of Ukrainian civil society seeking to pressure President Poroshenko to force his officials, especially in the Prosecutor General’s Office (PGO) to crack down more, not less, on corruption. “Corruption kills,” Pyatt said in the address to the Odesa Financial Forum for business leaders. “It kills productivity and smothers inspiration. Ideas are lost in its shadow. Innovation and entrepreneurship lag under the weight of bribery, back room dealing, and bullying.”

While giving Shokin a last chance to shape up (Pyatt says, “We want to work with Prosecutor General Shokin so the PGO is leading the fight against corruption.”), the ambassador criticizes “officials at the PGO’s office” for not providing documents that were needed for the British investigation of Burisma owner Zlochevskiy and effectively allowing Zlochevskiy to transfer $23 million of what Pyatt says were Ukrainian taxpayer assets to Cyprus. In other words, Pyatt is critical of the prosecutor’s office for not aiding in investigations of Burisma’s owner, which was in line with Biden’s criticism that the office was blocking corruption investigations. Pyatt specifically called for the investigation and removal of officials who were involved in the failure to help the British authorities investigate Zlochevskiy:

“We have learned that there have been times that the PGO not only did not support investigations into corruption, but rather undermined prosecutors working on legitimate corruption cases.

For example, in the case of former Ecology Minister Mykola Zlochevsky [cq], the U.K. authorities had seized 23 million dollars in illicit assets that belonged to the Ukrainian people. Officials at the PGO’s office were asked by the U.K to send documents supporting the seizure.

Instead they sent letters to Zlochevsky’s attorneys attesting that there was no case against him. As a result, the money was freed by the U.K. court and shortly thereafter the money was moved to Cyprus.

The misconduct by the PGO officials who wrote those letters should be investigated, and those responsible for subverting the case by authorizing those letters should – at a minimum – be summarily terminated.”

Full text of Ambassador Pyatt’s speech.[See also early February 2015 entry for then-deputy chief of mission at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv George Kent’s scolding deputy general prosecutor for corrupt protection of Zlochevsky.]



Oct. 8, 2015 – U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland continues the drumbeat on the need for stepped-up anti-corruption efforts in Ukraine, telling the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in testimony that “the Prosecutor General’s Office (PGO) has to be reinvented as an institution that serves the citizens of Ukraine, rather than ripping them off.” She continues, “That means it must investigate and successfully prosecute corruption and asset recovery cases, including locking up dirty personnel in the PGO itself.”

Fall 2015 – Biden, along with the EU, publicly calls for ouster of Prosecutor General Shokin for failure to work on anti-corruption efforts.

John E. Herbst, U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine under George W. Bush, later testified before Congress:

“By late fall of 2015, the EU and the United States joined the chorus of those seeking Mr. Shokin’s removal as the start of an overall reform of the Procurator General’s Office. U.S. Vice President Joe Biden spoke publicly about this before and during his December visit to Kyiv.”

Dec. 8, 2015 – Vice President Biden makes a speech to Ukraine’s Parliament urging the country to step up anti-corruption measures.

In a speech covered widely in news media, Biden implores Ukrainian lawmakers to move more quickly to fight the country’s “historic battle against corruption” and “make real the Revolution of Dignity.” (Many of the lawmakers themselves were former businessmen and suspected of corruption and therefore that much less interested in fighting graft.) He says, “The only thing worse than having no hope at all is having hopes rise and see them dashed repeatedly on the shoals of corruption…Not enough has been done yet.” Specifically citing Shokin’s Office of the General Prosecutor for lagging on corruption investigations, he continues:

“It’s not enough to set up a new anti-corruption bureau and establish a special prosecutor fighting corruption. The Office of the General Prosecutor desperately needs reform. The judiciary should be overhauled. The energy sector needs to be competitive, ruled by market principles — not sweetheart deals. It’s not enough to push through laws to increase transparency with regard to official sources of income. Senior elected officials have to remove all conflicts between their business interest and their government responsibilities. Every other democracy in the world — that system pertains.

Oligarchs and non-oligarchs must play by the same rules. They have to pay their taxes, settle their disputes in court — not by bullying judges. That’s basic. That’s how nations succeed in the 21st century.

Corruption siphons away resources from the people. It blunts the economic growth, and it affronts the human dignity. We know that. You know that. The Ukrainian people know that. When Russia seeks to use corruption as a tool of coercion, reform isn’t just good governance, it’s self-preservation. It’s in the national security interest of the nation ….

The United States is with you in this fight…We’ve stepped up with official assistance to help backstop the Ukrainian economy. We’ve rallied the international community to commit a total of $25 billion in bilateral and multilateral financing to support Ukraine. It includes $2 billion in U.S. loan guarantees and the possibility of more.

Yesterday I announced almost $190 million in new American assistance to help Ukraine fight corruption, strengthen the rule of law, implement critical reform, bolster civil society, advance energy security. That brings our total of direct aid to almost $760 million in direct assistance, in addition to loan guarantees since this crisis broke out. And that is not the end of what we’re prepared to do if you keep moving.

But for Ukraine to continue to make progress and to keep the support of the international community you have to do more, as well. The big part of moving forward with your IMF program — it requires difficult reforms.”

Full text of Biden’s speech.

Jan. 21, 2016 – Vice President Biden meets with Ukrainian President Poroshenko and discusses “the need to continue to move forward on Ukraine’s anti-corruption agenda,” according to a readout on the website of the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv.

Feb. 11, 2016 – Vice President Biden speaks with Poroshenko by phone. A U.S. Embassy statement said the two agreed “that it is essential for Ukraine to continue to take action to root out corruption and implement reforms.”

Biden later boasts about the pressure he exerted on Ukraine during that time to address corruption. In a Jan. 23, 2018, Q&A following a speech at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) in Washington, Biden touts his tough stance with Ukraine in 2016. He says he told Ukrainian leaders that the U.S. would withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees unless they fired Prosecutor General Shokin. President Trump and Rudy Giuliani have cited that boast repeatedly as proof that Biden admitted pushing for Shokin’s firing, even though Biden was calling for the prosecutor to be fired because he wasn’t pursuing corruption cases vigorously enough. In the CFR appearance, Biden makes the comments in the context of expressing his concern that Ukraine still was not getting tough enough on corruption. “I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.” Biden continued, “So they made some genuine substantial changes institutionally and with people. But … there’s now some backsliding.” (Biden had boasted about this episode in an interview in Aug. 2016.)

https://www.justsecurity.org/66271/t...d-ukrainegate/

[PaulS]

Pete - you need to bookmark that bc the "Biden's corruption" will be mentioned here for years in the hope no one remembers there was no corruption.

[Pete F.]

Ya but
The President who paid hush money to a porn star over an affair he had while his third wife nursed his fifth child and admitted on camera, in front of a live audience that he's never asked God's forgiveness for anything is trying to give a religion lecture to...Christianity Today

[Jim in CT]

Wow, asking to announce that they're looking to see what happened, is really sleazy. Only the reincarnation of Hitler would do such a thing.

So if a family which includes a member running for president against the sitting POTUS robs a bank in Ukraine, the sitting president isn't allowed to ask Ukraine to find out what happened.

That just makes all kinds of sense...

You see TDS sufferers, if Trump calls for an investigation, and it turned up nothing, Trump would get criticized (fairly) by the media, for wasting everyone's time. Trump therefore has sufficient incentive not to call for an investigation, unless he thinks there's something there. In his second term, maybe he has nothing to lose. But before then, he has plenty to lose.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Ya but
The President who paid hush money to a porn star over an affair he had while his third wife nursed his fifth child and admitted on camera, in front of a live audience that he's never asked God's forgiveness for anything is trying to give a religion lecture to...Christianity Today

Hey, you want to say he's a scumbag, you don't have to convince me. That's a great reason to not vote for him. It's exactly why I would never have voted for him in the primary. Not nearly sufficient reason to impeach him.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Pete - you need to bookmark that bc the "Biden's corruption" will be mentioned here for years in the hope no one remembers there was no corruption.

How do you know that, exactly? Has it ever been investigated?

Wishing it, doesn't make it so.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Wow, asking to announce that they're looking to see what happened, is really sleazy. Only the reincarnation of Hitler would do such a thing.

So if a family which includes a member running for president against the sitting POTUS robs a bank in Ukraine, the sitting president isn't allowed to ask Ukraine to find out what happened.

That just makes all kinds of sense...

You see TDS sufferers, if Trump calls for an investigation, and it turned up nothing, Trump would get criticized (fairly) by the media, for wasting everyone's time. Trump therefore has sufficient incentive not to call for an investigation, unless he thinks there's something there. In his second term, maybe he has nothing to lose. But before then, he has plenty to lose.

Asking for the "announcement" of an investigation is what happened.

Now show me any predicate for the investigation.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Asking for the "announcement" of an investigation is what happened.

Now show me any predicate for the investigation.

You know the suspicious activity, lots of money involved while Joe was the executive branch’s point man on ukraine.

Even Joe now says the optics are bad.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

How do you know that, exactly? Has it ever been investigated?

Wishing it, doesn't make it so.

Where is your proof?

McCarthy would be proud.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Where is your proof?

McCarthy would be proud.

I have no proof, but some very fishy facts. That’s why I’d like an investigation. If all
the places in the globe Hunter could have gotten a lucrative job for which he wasn’t qualified, it had to be the place where his daddy was the point man. “Of all the gin joints in all the world, she has to walk into mine.”

You suspect, then you investigate, then you have proof. I hope that’s not going too fast for you.

I made no declarations, you did ( you said there was no corruption). I’m saying there’s evidence of shenanigans.

McCarthy? For asking to find the facts?

You’re opposed to investigating things? That’s McCarthyism?
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[Pete F.]

fishy facts

President Donald Trump once stated explicitly that he believes that it was Ukraine -- not Russia -- that meddled in the 2016 election because Russian President Vladimir Putin "told me".
Trump became more insistent about the conspiracy after his private meeting with Putin in July 2017 at the G20 summit in Hamburg, Germany.
What qualifications does Nikki Haley possess that qualify her to make over 300K for a few board meetings a year at Boeing?
Ivanka Trump receiving trademark approval in China shortly after the US President agreed to save jobs at ZTE, and the first daughter receiving renewals for two Russian trademarks approximately one month before Trump was elected president.
On the same day Trump and his daughter dined with Chinese President Xi Jinping at Mar-a-Lago in Florida in April 2017, China awarded her three preliminary trademark approvals for jewelry, handbags and spa services. In all, she has obtained more than a dozen Chinese trademarks since entering the White House, ensuring her access to the world’s second-largest economy if she goes back into business.
Lev Parnas, a business associate of Rudy Giuliani, wants to testify to Congress that aides to Rep. Devin Nunes called off a trip to Ukraine this year when they realized they would be required to notify Democratic committee Chairman Adam Schiff.
The purpose of the trip was to interview two Ukrainian prosecutors who claim to have evidence that could help President Trump’s reelection campaign, according to Parnas’ lawyer.
Parnas also alleges that Nunes, a leading Trump ally, himself traveled to Vienna last year to interview a potential source of political dirt on Joe Biden.
In 2017, Giuliani sought to mediate a U.S.-Turkey deal that might have freed an Iranian-born alleged Turkish swindler imprisoned in New York who was friendly with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, according to court records. This year, Giuliani offered to represent a Venezuelan contending with a Justice Department investigation into alleged money laundering and bribery, The Post reported, at a time when Trump was seeking to force a change of government in Caracas.

And in late 2017 or 2018, in a matter that has not been previously reported, two attorneys say that Giuliani talked with Justice Department lawyers about Low Taek Jho, a Malaysian who allegedly ran an $8 billion scheme known as 1MDB. (Giuliani texted that he was asked to represent Low “but we turned it down.” Asked if he might have spoken with Justice Department attorneys about the case, Giuliani initially texted, “I don’t recall it,” and a few minutes later added: “If they talked to me I told them he tried to retain us and my partners [at Greenberg Traurig] turned him dow[n].” In October, the Justice Department reached a deal in which Low agreed to forfeit $700 million in assets; among Low’s attorneys was Giuliani’s friend Chris Christie, former governor of New Jersey. Greenberg Traurig declined to comment. A source close to the firm said it wasn’t aware of any request to represent Low.

I could go on for pages and pages but you claim Floridaman is a corruption fighter because biden's kid made money and that's fishy

[Jim in CT]

Pete, not sure if you heard, but we recently completed a yearslong, thorough, very expensive investigation of Trump and Russia. Didn’t uncover anything.

Are you saying it’s OK to investigate Trump when there’s smoke, but not Biden?
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Pete, not sure if you heard, but we recently completed a yearslong, thorough, very expensive investigation of Trump and Russia. Didn’t uncover anything.

Here's a few anythings

Mueller and his team filed charges against 37 defendants, secured seven guilty pleas and one conviction at trial. Six former associates and advisors of President Trump were among those charged. The case of Trump’s former deputy campaign chairman Rick Gates was transferred Saturday from the special counsel’s office to federal prosecutors in Washington.

While no more indictments will come from the special counsel, investigations of Trump, his campaign and his businesses continue in Congress, and federal and state jurisdictions in New York, Virginia and Washington, D.C.

Are you saying it’s OK to investigate Trump when there’s smoke, but not Biden?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

You need a predicate to investigate a citizen of the United States.

Thing's are still , someone told me:

"I was in the Deutsche Bank hearings, Lev Parnas bail hearing and 3 days in court with Jeffrey Epstein and 2 days after his death. TRUST me there is some really bad stuff coming down involving Trump, ALL these cases come back to Trump watch SDNY"

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Did you hear any Republican stand in the the House and say "Donald Trump is a good man, he's an honest man"?

Of course not,they were flipping cars over and screaming “ not my speaker”.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

You need a predicate to investigate a citizen of the United States.

Thing's are still , someone told me:

"I was in the Deutsche Bank hearings, Lev Parnas bail hearing and 3 days in court with Jeffrey Epstein and 2 days after his death. TRUST me there is some really bad stuff coming down involving Trump, ALL these cases come back to Trump watch SDNY"

You need a predicate to investigate a citizen of the United States.

Unless his name is Carter Page, but I digress. Hunter made a ton of money overseas, while daddy was VP. In particular, his being appointed to the board of a ukranian energy company, seems a tad askew.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Of course not,they were flipping cars over and screaming “ not my speaker”.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That was just Collins, Jordan and Gohmert

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You need a predicate to investigate a citizen of the United States.

Unless his name is Carter Page, but I digress. Hunter made a ton of money overseas, while daddy was VP. In particular, his being appointed to the board of a ukranian energy company, seems a tad askew.

A tad askew does not constitute a predicate in the US, a banana republic yes.

How is Hunter Biden more unqualified than many other board members of corporations? It was not the first board he sat on.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/23.20

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

That was just Collins, Jordan and Gohmert

Pete, get used to the title...

President Trump
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Pete, get used to the title...

Impeached President Trump
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Fixed it for you

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Fixed your balls for you

Thanks Pete,no heavy lifting.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Pete, get used to the title...

President Trump*
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Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by spence

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That’s what the Never Patriots fans do Jeff. I understand your frustration.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

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