Important - please read

[detbuch]

Tytler's quote has, I believe, appeared here once or twice before. And the response from the more left-leaning members has been, as it is now, silence. Perhaps they think it is too absurd to merit a comment. But they usually muster a quick, snarky comment on what they consider stupid right-wingish observations. Is the quote so obviously true that they are struck speechless. Nah. Maybe the quote, and the similar sentiments made on these threads and other "right wing" sources are tainted because they are not spoken by more acceptable origins such as mainstream media, PBS, academic commentaries. There must be something suspect if something as obvious as this quote is not pouring from the lips of our current mainstream thinkers and politicians. Could someone, Spence, somebody, point out what is wrong with Tytler's observation, or, how it doesn't apply to the drift in American history.

[Raven]

i was talking to my neighbor who told me that the Chinese had bought land in TEXAS
...to drill for oil and are sending it back to China. wtf

[JohnR]

We may be going from abundance to apathy. We are different now than we were 50 years ago, certainly. And I don't think we are different for the better.

We need more signal, less noise.

The boomers are not living up to the high standards brought out by the "Greatest Generation" in managing our country, perhaps Gen X & Y can do a better job.

Perhaps people can be more apolitical and do things in the interest of our country rather than in interest of a party.

Originally Posted by Raven

i was talking to my neighbor who told me that the Chinese had bought land in TEXAS
...to drill for oil and are sending it back to China. wtf

Meh, let's see something official on that....

[scottw]

In 1942, Stuart Chase, in his book "The Road We Are Traveling" spelled out the system of planning the Fabian Socialists had in mind; the interesting thing is to look at that plan in comparison to 2010 America.

1. Strong, centralized government.

2. Powerful Executive at the expense of Congress and the Judicial.

3. Government controlled banking, credit and securities exchange.

4. Government control over employment.

5. Unemployment insurance, old age pensions.

6. Universal medical care, food and housing programs.

7. Access to unlimited government borrowing.

8. A managed monetary system.

9. Government control over foreign trade.

10. Government control over natural energy sources, transportation and agricultural production.

11. Government regulation of labor.

12. Youth camps(corps) devoted to health discipline, community service and ideological teaching consistent with those of the authorities.

13. Heavy progressive taxation.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Could someone, Spence, somebody, point out what is wrong with Tytler's observation, or, how it doesn't apply to the drift in American history.

Well, if as you say human nature doesn't change and great civilizations only last 200 years...then we're done for

Generally speaking, he's just telling a somewhat spun story (Glenn Beck style even) to make a pretty simple point. I think few would argue that a financially strong US reinforced with independent and well educated people isn't a good thing.

But the implication of the article is that our current trajectory has doomed us towards bondage because of an already established cycle. We're simply following a patten set by history...ah, unless we wake up and change our course.

Do civilizations really only last 200 years and do they really always follow the same patten? That's a pretty good question to ask. Perhaps the facts are just being fit around the policy to create some intrigue.

While we certainly do have real issues in the US, I don't think we're headed for bondage any time soon. I work with manufacturing companies across many industries and see smart, hardworking Americans churning out innovations that make people's life better and drive our economy every day.

Pessimists may want to see things as America slipping but the reality is that other countries are just catching up...largely by doing what we've taught them to do. I'm not sure this is necessarily a terrible thing.

So let's spend less and focus a bit more on our future, makes sense to me, but I'm not sure we're all that off track.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Oh spence, if it wasnt for those damn trees, someday you may see the forest...

Originally Posted by spence

Do civilizations really only last 200 years and do they really always follow the same patten? That's a pretty good question to ask. Perhaps the facts are just being fit around the policy to create some intrigue.

While we certainly do have real issues in the US, I don't think we're headed for bondage any time soon. I work with manufacturing companies across many industries and see smart, hardworking Americans churning out innovations that make people's life better and drive our economy every day.
yes- but all innovations are a risky investment. How many will fail? Most, and what if they fail BIG? Will the govt step in an bail out the companies, the investors? Will we enact legislation to protect further investment in these innovations?
And for those that succeed? Well, of course it will be more profitable to manufacture these outside the US! Blame regulation, taxes and the unions for that.!

Pessimists may want to see things as America slipping but the reality is that other countries are just catching up...largely by doing what we've taught them to do. I'm not sure this is necessarily a terrible thing.

You are absolutely correct, they're not just catching up! They're beating us! The richest man in the world is Mexican! China and other 3rd world countries are cacthing up to our GDP. And once they're with us, how much will this impact the costs for natural resources. We see it with oil (China and India) but what about rubber, wood, steel, and other raw material. And then eventually FOOD????
Their kids will become more educated, more tech savy, more demading, wanting more and more just like us. But guess what? We've grown soft, our kids are dependant on the state. Their parents didnt work to help them through college, they got grants and free rides. They didnt need jobs, they got healtcare after college. They hung out and played Wii all day and did bong hits. While all the while other countries were moving forward. The US is too busy taking care of their own and eventually? Bondage.


-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, if as you say human nature doesn't change and great civilizations only last 200 years...then we're done for

Human nature is not dependant on civilizations. Civilizations are a product of human nature. The disappearance of a civilization does not delete human nature. The statement to which you refer is not that great civilizations only last 200 years, but that their average life has been about 200 years, implying some last longer, some less. I don't know if that's true, but I don't take that as relevent to the process of decline.

Generally speaking, he's just telling a somewhat spun story (Glenn Beck style even) to make a pretty simple point. I think few would argue that a financially strong US reinforced with independent and well educated people isn't a good thing.

An INDEPENDENT people being the goodest thing.

But the implication of the article is that our current trajectory has doomed us towards bondage because of an already established cycle. We're simply following a patten set by history...ah, unless we wake up and change our course.

Sort of . . . not that the "cycle" is established or that a pattern has been set by history . . . but that democracy, inherently leads to its own destruction through its potential to give the masses the collective power to vote for those who promise to give them unearned wealth redistributed from the public treasury, which leads to financial collapse due to loose fiscal policy.

The wisdom of our founders was to create a Republic rather than a democracy, and create a judicial branch of government that would impede such rush to collective dependence. Unfortunately, they trusted too much in the "honor" of justices to adhere to the Constitution that was supposed to garantee individual rights from being subservient to group "rights" and governmental fiat. The judges have been all too human and have deferred to the collective portion of their human nature.

Do civilizations really only last 200 years and do they really always follow the same patten? That's a pretty good question to ask. Perhaps the facts are just being fit around the policy to create some intrigue.

Again, that was an average. And he was focusing on democracies, not all civilizations. And, yeah, not all "democracies" are the same. And there may not have been any truly pure democracy. The part of his progression that intrigues me, that seems to have some credence in history, is the seduction of the polity by politicians who redistribute wealth, and the ensuing weakening of the population that accepts the goodies.

While we certainly do have real issues in the US, I don't think we're headed for bondage any time soon. I work with manufacturing companies across many industries and see smart, hardworking Americans churning out innovations that make people's life better and drive our economy every day.

Let us be wary of restricting this process from the top. Let us allow this base of American individualism continue to innovate. Perhaps, you might look at bondage on "a spectrum." There is the hard bondage of, say the slaves serving the Pharaoh, and, then, there is the consensual bondage of the soft depotism of a "benevolent" government that will take care of you if you will give it the power to determine your fate.

Pessimists may want to see things as America slipping but the reality is that other countries are just catching up...largely by doing what we've taught them to do. I'm not sure this is necessarily a terrible thing.

We are not slipping in comparison to others catching up. We are slipping in comparison to our own potential. The top down handcuffs make it difficult to be what we Constitutionally are allowed to be. If the rest of the world becomes equal to us, not only in what we've taught them to be economically, but in gaining the individual freedoms with which we have been endowed, that will be a win, win.

So let's spend less and focus a bit more on our future, makes sense to me, but I'm not sure we're all that off track.

-spence

If we can reverse the trend of seeing the Constitution as relative to changing times, and revert back to protecting and preserving it as the foundation which protects us from overbearing government rather than a means to have government do for us, I have confidence that we will remain strong and adaptive to any change.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Human nature is not dependant on civilizations. Civilizations are a product of human nature. The disappearance of a civilization does not delete human nature. The statement to which you refer is not that great civilizations only last 200 years, but that their average life has been about 200 years, implying some last longer, some less. I don't know if that's true, but I don't take that as relevent to the process of decline.

The point I was making is that if human nature doesn't change, and the 200 year cycle is correct, then we're set up to be at the end of the cycle. Without this device the piece is far less interesting.

An INDEPENDENT people being the goodest thing.

As opposed to bondage, of course

The wisdom of our founders was to create a Republic rather than a democracy, and create a judicial branch of government that would impede such rush to collective dependence. Unfortunately, they trusted too much in the "honor" of justices to adhere to the Constitution that was supposed to garantee individual rights from being subservient to group "rights" and governmental fiat. The judges have been all too human and have deferred to the collective portion of their human nature.

Excellent point, although I'm not sure all if this should be considered a failure. Some aspects of judicial activism I think can be seen as having benefited society and some as a detriment. Hindsight is always 20/20.

The part of his progression that intrigues me, that seems to have some credence in history, is the seduction of the polity by politicians who redistribute wealth, and the ensuing weakening of the population that accepts the goodies.

Agree, there certainly is some truth here that is probably fed by human nature. The outstanding question may be what's really sustainable? Socialism doesn't work, but does that mean some socialistic elements are always negative... or perhaps could they be a positive buffering element in a free market society?

Let us be wary of restricting this process from the top. Let us allow this base of American individualism continue to innovate. Perhaps, you might look at bondage on "a spectrum." There is the hard bondage of, say the slaves serving the Pharaoh, and, then, there is the consensual bondage of the soft depotism of a "benevolent" government that will take care of you if you will give it the power to determine your fate.

I think the right mix may be optimal. For instance, I believe that Federal funding for university based R&D has produced dramatic returns in innovation that have benefited independent businesses.

The use of the "spectrum" is appropriate here. I approve.

We are not slipping in comparison to others catching up. We are slipping in comparison to our own potential. The top down handcuffs make it difficult to be what we Constitutionally are allowed to be.

Are we any less handcuffed than we were 50 or 100 years ago? I'm not sure we are, but I would agree we can achieve more.

If the rest of the world becomes equal to us, not only in what we've taught them to be economically, but in gaining the individual freedoms with which we have been endowed, that will be a win, win.

Most definitely.

If we can reverse the trend of seeing the Constitution as relative to changing times, and revert back to protecting and preserving it as the foundation which protects us from overbearing government rather than a means to have government do for us, I have confidence that we will remain strong and adaptive to any change.

As would be expected, I'm all for balance here as well, although I also believe that relativism (moral or otherwise) if not an absolute doesn't have to be linear either.

As an aside, the Constitution was the first app I downloaded to my new iPad.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The point I was making is that if human nature doesn't change, and the 200 year cycle is correct, then we're set up to be at the end of the cycle. Without this device the piece is far less interesting.

What is interesting to me in the piece is Tytler's "cycle," and not so much Kiyosaki's application of it. Though no-one has found the quote in Tytler's works, he certainy wrote about democracy in a way that the quote could be derived.

The Founders were well read in history and may have read Tytler's sceptical views of democracy. He also seems to have been of the mind that, though democracies in the purest sense are a fiction, a republican form of democracy offers the best opportunity for individuals to rise from lower to higher classes. He, like the Founders, based his ideas on his view of human nature. Whether Tytler was influental or not, the Founders chose a republican form that, in its constitutional frame would allow governance to evolve so that, if it adhered to the fundamental guidlines of the Constitution, optimum individual freedom would be preserved. In essence, the Founders created the path that breaks the cycle. We will be sucked into the vortex of Tytler's cycle if we stray from the path.

Excellent point, although I'm not sure all if this should be considered a failure. Some aspects of judicial activism I think can be seen as having benefited society and some as a detriment. Hindsight is always 20/20.


The problem with judicial activism is its precendent of straying from the path and the inherent danger of becoming lost. Nature is not static. It evolves constantly in the infinite directions that its minutest elements take, whether taken by accident or by "choice." Each element remains distinctly what it is by maintaining its integrity, and can become stronger by combining that integrity with another. It fails and disappears when it loses integrity. The integrity of our republic is maintained by adhering to the Constitution. Legislation that evolves over time will maintain that integrity if it stays within the "genetic code" of constitutional bounds. The SCOTUS is our republic's genetic regulator/protecter. If it allows mutations, we become other. Better or worse? Whatever we become may think it's better, but we will have wandered into another political existence and, as Obama wishes, we will be fundamentally transformed.

As for "some aspects of judicial activism" having benefited society--how so? Is a short term "gain" for some group in a society founded on individual freedom beneficial to that society if it restricts that freedom and leads the way, by precedent, to stray from the path that breaks the cycle so that more freedoms are lost and we slip onto a path to bondage?

Agree, there certainly is some truth here that is probably fed by human nature. The outstanding question may be what's really sustainable? Socialism doesn't work, but does that mean some socialistic elements are always negative... or perhaps could they be a positive buffering element in a free market society?

Which socialistic elements? Different forms of economies and governments have simlar elements. It is human nature that buffers all systems. Compassion, good will, honor, love, (and all their opposites) are inherent in our nature, not in our political/social systems. It may be argued that some system may most enable our "good" nature. I think a system derived from a society of free individuals allows human nature to be expressed in its "spectrum" of diversity, and that, on the whole, our good nature will prevail. And, IMO, in a system based on the good of the collective, human nature will be neutralized and suppressed into compliance, obedience, submission.

I think the right mix may be optimal. For instance, I believe that Federal funding for university based R&D has produced dramatic returns in innovation that have benefited independent businesses.

Federal funding, IMO, should be for areas originally in the federal domain. Federal funding for military R&D (the common defense) is good--lots of it--but not stupid waste.

Federal funding for areas outside of what is constitutionally federal leads to far more bad than good. It redistributes all the people's money in ways that favors some people over other people. It creates inflationary cycles wherein huge piles of money that were not previously available are spent and sought and prices rise and the value of money is decreased. And, worse, it constantly flows toward the prestige and dependence on central power. The diverse localities should decide how their public purse should be spent. R&D paid for by corporations, businesses, and even states or local communities will exist without the Feds, will cost much less, and, if the free market is not overly restricted, will be far more diverse than R&D financed by the bottomless pocket of the Fed.Gov. and the particular preferences of those running it at any given time.


Are we any less handcuffed than we were 50 or 100 years ago? I'm not sure we are, but I would agree we can achieve more.

We are probably more handcuffed.


As an aside, the Constitution was the first app I downloaded to my new iPad.

-spence

I approve.