Rudy Guiliani catching heat for saying Obama doesn't love the country

[Jim in CT]

Fact...Obama's spiritual advisor, Rev Wright, is a deranged lunatic who hates the country.

Fact...one of Obama's political mentors is Bill Ayers, an admitted domestic terrorist.

Fact...Obama's wife said she wasn't proud of America until her hubby got the nomination in 2008 (we never did anything to be proud of before that, no free elections, no freedoms, no generosity shown to other countries, we didn't save the world in the 1940s or anything).

Guiliani's statement, in a rational world, wouldn't even be controversial. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.,..

Obama doesn't love the fundamental values that forged our nation. In equally shocking news, scientists proclaimed today, that water is wet.

[Raven]

when Rudy was in power
New York police were just like the Gestapo

he was abusive then
and still is with His Mouth
truth being irrelevant...

[Jim in CT]

The Gestaop, really? They hauled people off with no probable cause, and those people halued off were denied due process?

SInce you mentioned "truth"...th e"truth" is violent crime dropped like a rock thanks to aggressive policing, and the biggest beneficiaries of that were peopl ethat live in the poor neighborhoods, where all that crime was committed.

I'm no huge fan of Guiliani's politics in general. But he was a Godesnd for that city, and he was spot-on in his characterization of Obama.

If I sat in a church for 20 years, and listened to a white supremacist maniac talk incessantly about how much he hates blacks...if I call that man my spiritual mentor, and let him baptize my kids, then it's reasonable for folks to say I don't love blacks. That's exactly the relationship Obama had with Wright, except Wright bashed America.

[spence]

I always thought of Rudy as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but this one took him into the gutter. His backpedaling that it couldn't be racist because Obama had a white mom was pretty amazing.

I'll give him credit for cleaning up the city and showing strong leadership after 9/11, but his behavior recently has been embarrassing. Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

[Nebe]

Rudy is to be taken as seriously as Sarah Palin
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[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by justplugit

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

Exactly
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[Raven]

Sarah..... i'd protect from the bears
Rudy...... I'd let the Bears EAT Him

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by justplugit

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

So you think our President doesn't love this country?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So you think our President doesn't love this country?

I think he tries very hard to transform this country into something he likes . I don't think he respects what it took to build this country
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by buckman

I think he tries very hard to transform this country into something he likes . I don't think he respects what it took to build this country
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So that means he doesn't love the country?

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by spence

this one took him into the gutter. His backpedaling that it couldn't be racist because Obama had a white mom was pretty amazing.

I'll give him credit for cleaning up the city and showing strong leadership after 9/11, but his behavior recently has been embarrassing. Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

[Raven]

or at least a Hawaiian Pot Head
but Rudy no likah the Rastaman

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So that means he doesn't love the country!!!!!

Fixed it
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

Your double standards are impressive
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[PaulS]

How do I have double standards?

[detbuch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

Originally Posted by buckman

Your double standards are impressive
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You mean as in Obama was not saying a POS thing when he said that Bush was not patriotic, but Rudy was when he said what he did?

That would only be a double standard if Paul didn't think what Obama said about Bush was a POS thing. Maybe Paul does believe that what Obama said was a POS thing. So, maybe in Paul's mind they're both, sort of, a POS.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I always thought of Rudy as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but this one took him into the gutter. His backpedaling that it couldn't be racist because Obama had a white mom was pretty amazing.

I'll give him credit for cleaning up the city and showing strong leadership after 9/11, but his behavior recently has been embarrassing. Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

It's not the least bit racist. If we had a white president (1) whose spiritual mentor hated the country, (2) whose wife said she wasn't proud of this country until her hubby won, and (3) whose political mentor tried to bomb the US Capital building, I would say that white president doesn't love this country, and I would be correct. The fcat that there isn't a comparable white President about whom to draw the same conclusion, doesn't mean it's racist to judge Obama the same way. If Guiliani gave a white politician a pass under similar circumstances, you'd have evidence that he's picking on Obama because he's black. But he's picking on Obama for an irrefutable string of highly unusual close company he keeps.

Spence, for all the insults you hurled at Guliani, I noticed that you didn't type one syllable to refute what he said. Easy to insult him. Tell me why his conclusion is wrong, given the evidence I stated.

Again, if I spent 20 years in a church where the pastor was Rev Wright a white supremacist, would it be controversial for you to say "Jim doesn't love this country black people"? Nope, everyone would agree with you. Let's see you make that wrong?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

I happily concede he was born here and isn't a Muslim. There's no evidence to suggest otherwise. There's plenty of evidence to suggest he doesn't love this country - namely, his willingness to associate with, and idolize, the likes of Rev Wright, Bill Ayers, and Michelle Obama.

In all seriousness, no sarcasm, how do you dismiss his intimate ties with those people? If I let Bull Connor baptize my kids, wouldn't you conslude I don't love blacks? How is that any different?

I'm also no huge fan of Rudy, but I love that someone on the national stage is willing to tell the truth at the risk of being called a racist.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

Then why double down with an ugly ad hominem attack? If you're right then just make the superior argument.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I happily concede he was born here yet for the longest time the right would insinuate otherwiseand isn't a MuslimDidn't Scott Walker just say something like "I don't know if he is a Christian, I haven't talked to him about it".. There's no evidence to suggest otherwise. There's plenty of evidence to suggest he doesn't love this country - namely, his willingness to associate with, and idolize, the likes of Rev Wright, Bill Ayers, and Michelle Obama.

In all seriousness, no sarcasm, how do you dismiss his intimate ties with those people? If I let Bull Connor baptize my kids, wouldn't you conslude I don't love blacks? How is that any different?

I'm also no huge fan of Rudy, but I love that someone on the national stage is willing to tell the truth at the risk of being called a racist.

He has given his life to service to his country. Maybe tonight someone from the right will complain that he doesn't seem to want to work with the Repubs.

We have discussed numerous times what Michelle said and how it was taken out of context - how she was talking about how everyone seemed to be involved in the political process that year. Everyone who went to Rev. Wright's church said they would shake their head and mumble under their breath "there he goes again". Didn't Pres. Obama criticize Rev. Wright's speaches?

Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing.

So do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" bc I remember you getting upset bc you thought no one on the left thought Pres. Bush was a good person (and if I remember correctly it was the same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person).

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

[spence]

Originally Posted by PaulS

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

It was also a very politically stupid thing to say. Now, instead of GOP contenders working to sharpen their rhetoric they're being dragged into the "do you support Rudy" mud pit.

Perhaps the new Republican campaign slogan should be "hate before policy."

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

He has given his life to service to his country. Maybe tonight someone from the right will complain that he doesn't seem to want to work with the Repubs.

We have discussed numerous times what Michelle said and how it was taken out of context - how she was talking about how everyone seemed to be involved in the political process that year. Everyone who went to Rev. Wright's church said they would shake their head and mumble under their breath "there he goes again". Didn't Pres. Obama criticize Rev. Wright's speaches?

Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing.

So do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" bc I remember you getting upset bc you thought no one on the left thought Pres. Bush was a good person (and if I remember correctly it was the same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person).

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

First of all, "the right" didn't say he wasn't born here, it was some on the right. Obama fueled some of that by, for a time, refusing to produce the long form.

Second, I havd grave doubts about calling him a "Christian". What I said was, there's no evidence he is a Muslim. But I would not call anyone who supported Rev Wright's hatefilled, racist "Black Liberation Theology" as a Christian, and he only left Rev Wright when his pollsters told him that Wright was a liability.

"He has given his life to service to his country"

He gave his life? Soldiers give their lives. Presidents are very loosely called "public servants", as they leave that office worth tens of millions of dollars. Many also like the power. I can't speculate on his motives, but I'd hardly call any modern president someone who donates their life in service to his country. He taught at Harvard for a while. He hasn't been a full-time politician for decades and decades. That's a real stretch, but you are entitled to make it.

"Maybe tonight someone from the right will complain that he doesn't seem to want to work with the Repubs." Right. When he said "Republicans gotta stop just hating all the time", that was his way of extending an olive branch across the aisle? Paul, I voted for Bill Clinton, and while he was a scumbag as a person, i never felt like he hated me. That's excatly how I feel about Obama. The bitter and clinging to their religion comment...I could go on and on and on. No modern President has been nearly this dismissive and insulting to the other side.

"what Michelle said and how it was taken out of context"

I don't remember discussing it. I also love how every time one of them puts their foot in their mouths, it's my fault for being too stupid to put it in the corrcet context. She said what she said. Everyone tells me how brilliant she is, so I assume she meant what she said.

"she was talking about how everyone seemed to be involved in the political process that year"

She was? Then why didn't she say that? You're trying to conect two dots that are miles apart, and that really smells of desperation. What she said, is that prior to his receiving the Democratic nomination, she was never proud of this country. That's not an ambiguous comment, it's not open to different interpretations. Spin that any way you want, put that in any context you want. It's a stupid thing to say. She went to an Ivy League school, I assume she could have said "I'm proud of how many people got involved" if that's what she meant. That's not remotely similar to what the woman said. You can do better than that weak attempt at spin.

"Didn't Pres. Obama criticize Rev. Wright's speaches?"

When? Before he ran for President? Obama called the man his spiritual mentor, he asked the man to baptize his children. If Obama had always dWright's anti-America message, I have never heard anyone make that claim until just now. Paul, how do you call someone your spiritual mentor, if you reject the very foundation of that man's spiritual beliefs? Have fun with that one...

"Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing. "

Correct, they are different things. For the record, no one said Obama hates the country, Rudy said he "doesn't love" the country. I agree. your attempts at dismissing my evidence were weak at best, IMHO. And I noticed you stayed away from the terrorist Bill Ayers completely.

I cannot know what's in his heart. But the man's most intimate confidants, and many things he says, paint a different picture that the picture painted by the actions of someone with a deep love for the country. You can lifelong disciple of Rev Wright and love the country, no more than I can go to Klan meetings every Sunday for 20 years and claim I love blacks.

You say that folks were dismissive of Wrightr's most fiery sermons? Wrong. He sold those on DVD, and made enough money to buy a multi-million dollar house on a golf course.

You show me that Obama rejected Wrights anti-American bile before it bacame a political necessity for him to do so, I will agree with you. But I have never, ever heard anyone make that claim until you did just now.

"do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" "

I'm a bit suprised you don't know the answer to that. I do not think he's a good person. I think he's a thin-skinned, vindictive, racist, elitist, snob with nothing but contempt for people who disagree with him. No good person would ever say that Republicans "just hate all the time", and I have zero doubt that's exactly what he believes. No good person claims that I cling to my religion because I am a bitter racist, and that's precisely what he said. He's too arrogant to admit that he's ever wrong, and he's almost always wrong. He routinely dismisses criticism of him as hate-filled racism.

"same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person)."

That's a riot. Obama said it was unpatriotic for Bush to run up the debt the wayhe did, but somehow it's a mark of Obama's genius that he added so much more debt...

Most rational people on th eleft, those who hate Bush's policies, agreed that he was an utterly decent man. But many liberal politicians, and many in the media, launced baseless perosnal attacks. I concede my attacks on Obama are personal, bu tthey aren't baseless. I can support my opinions. Just about every one of them. I laid out the evidence of why I think he doesn't love the country, and your rebuttal woulkd have gotten you a D in any high school debate class. You claim Michelle meant something completely different from what she said, you claim Obama rejected Wright's bile without any supporting evidence (maybe there is some, but I'm not aware of it), and you chose no tto say anything about his association with a man who tried to bomb the US Capital for Christ's sake. I'm holding 4 Aces and a king for a kicker here, and that beats your pair of threes.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Then why double down with an ugly ad hominem attack? If you're right then just make the superior argument.

We were both dealing with your favorite word " Perhaps". You personally attacked Guiliani by saying he was a resentful person. That would be an attack against his character. My perhaps didn't smear him, just supposed he was cutting through the PC and BS. Since when is that an attack on his character?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

It was also a very politically stupid thing to say. Now, instead of GOP contenders working to sharpen their rhetoric they're being dragged into the "do you support Rudy" mud pit.

Perhaps the new Republican campaign slogan should be "hate before policy."

Right, because anytime a single Republican says something unpopular, you think all of them are accountable. Still haven't tried to refute the evidence Guliani offered to support his claim, I see. Easy to call him racist, a lot harder to make him wrong, based on what he actually said.

Marco Rubio nailed this perfectly. A reporter asked Rubio about Guliani's comment, and Rubio said "I'll tell you what I think of his comments, when you ask Democrat candidates why Bill Clinton is palling around with a known pedophile". The reporter didn't have much to say to that, naturally...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by PaulS

He has given his life to service to his country.

So did Bush. Was it a POS thing for Obama to say he was unpatriotic?

Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing.

Criticizing Bush's policy is one thing, but claiming he is unpatriotic is also a totally different thing.

So do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" bc I remember you getting upset bc you thought no one on the left thought Pres. Bush was a good person (and if I remember correctly it was the same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person).

And Giuliani said that Obama is a patriot.

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

Would you also say that Obama saying Bush was unpatriotic a POS thing? Maybe you would. Maybe you would think they are both a bit of a POS.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

It was also a very politically stupid thing to say. Now, instead of GOP contenders working to sharpen their rhetoric they're being dragged into the "do you support Rudy" mud pit.

Perhaps the new Republican campaign slogan should be "hate before policy."

Perhaps we need to look at the "context " within what he was saying
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[detbuch]

Even though it's "old news" (less than two weeks--that tremendous amount of time it took for us to "move on" and totally forget what he said) it also has been enough time to allow us some intelligent reflection on it--as opposed to the media's immediate mindless affectation of shock.

Though, I wonder if it was, rather than mindless, a part of what Spence likes to refer to as a "systemic pattern." Is the shock value of reaction more lucrative for the media than the analytic value would be? Is it more the press mantra "if it bleeds, it leads"? Throwing it out there as red meat, as a negative stupid thing to say, arouses more interest rather than, if it is brought up at all, analyzing and rationally discussing it.

More insidious is if particular media have political intent instead of mere intent to inform. The press's vaunted right to free speech works against itself when its "reports" are implied condemnation rather than simple information. It creates a climate of political speech censorship if it is feared that, even in private meetings, there might be a "spy" who will, out of context, transfer to the media something you say which might uncritically be used to discredit you. The right to free speech withers and fearfully transforms into the right to very careful, bland, unprovocative speech.

So, was what Rudy said "true"? Of course, we have to be mindful that there is no longer such a thing as "true". It's all "relative." At best an opinion. And he did, after all, express what he said as an opinion not a fact-- “I do not believe, and I know this is a horrible thing to say, but I do not believe that the president loves America . . .” Ok, so its just an opinion--but a stupid one and needs to dominate news and air time for a week because . . . well, the news should inform us about his stupid opinion because . . . well, because.

So how stupid is it? What would inspire Rudy to believe Obama doesn't "love America"? My guess is what Rudy has heard Obama say or what he has been reported to say. And what Obama has done. But, what does he mean by "love' and "America"?

Did Rudy mean by "America" the landscape and its wonders? It's boundaries? All of it's various people? What sense would there be to question the love of those things? Whether Obama "loved" those things or not is mostly irrelevant in respect to his job as President. So what is this "America" to which Rudy refers? What is America as a concept that differentiates if from other countries. All have boundaries, and beautiful landscapes, and wonderful, as well as awful, people. I would guess that, among whatever other differences that exist, the difference to which Rudy referred as his concept of America is its distinctive difference in its legal foundation and the character that foundation is meant to promote and protect.


And what did Rudy mean by "love"? Do even most of us think in terms of loving America? Do we actually say we love America? I would think we just assume that if you're an American, you love America. But if you actually have to define or quantify that "love," it might be a different story. What does Rudy mean by "love"? I suspect most of us don't, for sure, know. Love is a slippery word. Not only do I think that most of us go about our life without considering whether we love America or not, I think most of us don't particularly love our job. Most of us who work for somebody else don't see our job as truly who we are, but as a means to pay for who we are. And most of us do our job well, at least to its specifications. Obama could do his job well without "loving" it. A man may feel compelled when he interacts with a woman who is built like a brick chithouse to say he loves her. And she might, in response to his assumed romantic adoration say she loves him. They might even get married and have a few years of the physical, romantic thing going, but eventually the bodies get some flab and age, and the romance wears off and the word love may be spoken less frequently, if at all. But if they have children, and build a life together and around their family, the word love may have a new meaning, or, actually, not so new, just more real. The family, with children, has become united in blood and flesh. It has become an extension of what was two into one flesh. The love of family is ultimately the love of oneself. So, I believe, is love always love of oneself. Especially in a relativistic world in which the only existence even remotely verifiable is oneself.

So then what is love of country, if love is of oneself? Would it be the union of those concepts and ideals that define country to oneself? The extension of the country as self? Would that love, in effect bind one and country? And before that union can occur, must there not be some initial attraction?

And can that attraction occur if the self sees the country as unattractive? As flawed, unjust, inimical at its roots to what the self desires? If the self sees the country's foundation, and its practices, and its face to the world as oppressive and rapacious? In various ways, Obama has said as much.

Can a self express love for America if that self wants to fundamentally transform the concept and foundation that defines America? Can Obama love America if his will is to destroy its charter, "transform" it into its opposite, to eradicate its protection of unalienable individual rights against government usurpation into a charter of government rights which usurp those individual rights and grant it the power to decide all that is right? Obama has said as much in his opinion of the Constitution. And acted in ways to subvert it.

Can Obama see the America which exists as it is before his transformation of it, as an extension of his self? And if he does, can he love such an America which he wants to fundamentally change? If he loves himself, which America would he love, the one he wants to change, or the one he envisions after the change? If he wants to change that which he loves, that which is an extension of himself, does he love himself?

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And if he does, can he love such an America which he wants to fundamentally change? If he loves himself, which America would he love, the one he wants to change, or the one he envisions after the change? If he wants to change that which he loves, that which is an extension of himself, does he love himself?

Don't you want to fundamentally change America?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Don't you want to fundamentally change America?

What do you mean by "America"? If you mean by "America" the aftermath of Obama's fundamental transformation, I can't say that I love such an "America." I cannot even say what, exactly, that "America" is. I cannot discern what the definable foundation of that "America" is. I would not know how to fundamentally transform that which has no fundament. Except, to dismantle it, and scrape off the confusing, contradictory, corrupt, dictatorial excrement it has deposited on top of the foundation of constitutional America.

I assume it is that constitutional foundation and the spirit on which it was created to which Rudy meant by America. And, no, I would not want to fundamentally change that America. It has taken me several years to understand that America, to embrace it as an extension of who I am, to be an embodiment of what that America is.