No mental health issue in america.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Fortunately my senator Chris Murphy is out there on his soap box, saying that the gun caused this all by itself.

I take it the "Fortunately" part is sarcasm.
Sounds like a deranged individual to make a statement like that, even worse that he is a Senator.

Guns are no more responsible for school shootings than penises are responsible for rape.

We could go on all day with statistics, being angry about innocent people losing their lives and the evil that exists while blaming an inanimate object is counterproductive. Those murders are horrible, nothing can bring those people back, maybe vigilance can help prevent further shootings but impossible to prevent all.


The thing that bothers me most when this happens is the instant it happens , those with an agenda fall over themselves to be the first to spout off about further restricting law abiding people's rights that have been infringed upon over and over again with the same results, that is insane. These people we elect to government only want control and are willing to bankrupt the country to achieve it.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

I take it the "Fortunately" part is sarcasm.
Sounds like a deranged individual to make a statement like that, even worse that he is a Senator.

Guns are no more responsible for school shootings than penises are responsible for rape.

We could go on all day with statistics, being angry about innocent people losing their lives and the evil that exists while blaming an inanimate object is counterproductive. Those murders are horrible, nothing can bring those people back, maybe vigilance can help prevent further shootings but impossible to prevent all.


The thing that bothers me most when this happens is the instant it happens , those with an agenda fall over themselves to be the first to spout off about further restricting law abiding people's rights that have been infringed upon over and over again with the same results, that is insane. These people we elect to government only want control and are willing to bankrupt the country to achieve it.

Yes the fortunately was sarcastic.

The gun is an inanimate object. But certain guns like the AR-15, unfortunately, do fuel the fantasies of a small number of deranged folks. We can’t pretend that’s not true. I’m not saying the gun is the sole cause, but in some cases, it is a contributing factor. Some people are turned on by these guns.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Yes the fortunately was sarcastic.

The gun is an inanimate object. But certain guns like the AR-15, unfortunately, do fuel the fantasies of a small number of deranged folks. We can’t pretend that’s not true. I’m not saying the gun is the sole cause, but in some cases, it is a contributing factor. Some people are turned on by these guns.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

If there was no such thing as an AR-15 type, would slick looking hand guns (which are semi-automatic and can shoot at the same rate of speed as an AR15) fuel the fantasies of the deranged folks you speak of? If those folks kill because their fantasies are fueled by AR-15s, are we to assume they would not go on killing sprees if there were no AR-15s?

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If there was no such thing as an AR-15 type, would slick looking hand guns (which are semi-automatic and can shoot at the same rate of speed as an AR15) fuel the fantasies of the deranged folks you speak of? If those folks kill because their fantasies are fueled by AR-15s, are we to assume they would not go on killing sprees if there were no AR-15s?

I'd think that to fire at that rate and hit anything at much distance would take a lot more skill with a handgun than an AR-15. But a big issue here is simply muzzle velocity, capacity and the ability for victims to survive. The AR-15 was designed for war, not hunting or home protection. This is the opinion of so many military leaders and veteran doctors. A high velocity wound is very deadly.

Handguns certainly have their own cool factor, but it doesn't seem to be much of an influence for the worst mass shootings.

As I've said before, shooting for sport is fun, hunting (most of it) is good and home defense is a real thing. Doesn't mean we need nearly instant access to near military grade weapons.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I'd think that to fire at that rate and hit anything at much distance would take a lot more skill with a handgun than an AR-15. But a big issue here is simply muzzle velocity, capacity and the ability for victims to survive. The AR-15 was designed for war, not hunting or home protection. This is the opinion of so many military leaders and veteran doctors. A high velocity wound is very deadly.

Handguns certainly have their own cool factor, but it doesn't seem to be much of an influence for the worst mass shootings.

As I've said before, shooting for sport is fun, hunting (most of it) is good and home defense is a real thing. Doesn't mean we need nearly instant access to near military grade weapons.

This doesn't answer my question to Jim. Now, if you're saying that if there were no AR-15s there would be no mass killings, that would be closer to an answer to my question.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

This doesn't answer my question to Jim. Now, if you're saying that if there were no AR-15s there would be no mass killings, that would be closer to an answer to my question.

That's just another rhetorical deke you're leaning towards. The "if you stop all of them you can't stop any of them" defense. It's a complex issue but to be paralyzed to any action because of political interests is really stupid.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

That's just another rhetorical deke you're leaning towards.

I actually burst out laughing when I read this notion of leaning toward a deke. Every time I repeat that locution, I chuckle. I actually was blunt and straightforward. You did not answer the question I posed to Jim. You just bloviated some pseudo expert talking points.

The "if you stop all of them you can't stop any of them" defense. It's a complex issue but to be paralyzed to any action because of political interests is really stupid.

And then you leaned toward the deke of the straw man. I didn't apply nor even imply the "if you can't stop all you can't stop any" notion. It was stupid of you to put words or intentions in my statement that were not remotely in it. That is not an argument. That is not a reasonable discussion. And I was wrong, that is not even a leaning toward a deke. It is a deke.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If there was no such thing as an AR-15 type, would slick looking hand guns (which are semi-automatic and can shoot at the same rate of speed as an AR15) fuel the fantasies of the deranged folks you speak of? If those folks kill because their fantasies are fueled by AR-15s, are we to assume they would not go on killing sprees if there were no AR-15s?

I don’t know what would happen if things were different. I only know that mass killings not related to terrorism, seem to be frequently carried out by these things. He didn’t pick a handgun. I wouldn’t say the gun caused this. But I’d bet every cent I have, that in some cases, it fuels the fantasy. And I’d be right. I never took a psychology class but I know I’m right. I don’t know that this truth suggests any public policy that addresses it. Im just stating something that I don’t think can be refuted. If there were no such thing as rifles, I’d bet that this guy and Adam Lanza would have done what they did.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don’t know what would happen if things were different. I only know that mass killings not related to terrorism, seem to be frequently carried out by these things. He didn’t pick a handgun. I wouldn’t say the gun caused this. But I’d bet every cent I have, that in some cases, it fuels the fantasy. And I’d be right. I never took a psychology class but I know I’m right. I don’t know that this truth suggests any public policy that addresses it. Im just stating something that I don’t think can be refuted. If there were no such thing as rifles, I’d bet that this guy and Adam Lanza would have done what they did.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Before AR-15's, the guns that existed, hand or rifle, held the fascination of deranged, as well as normal, men, especially young ones. You, personally, may be sure of yourself in your opinion. I'm not sure of your opinion. I remember a fascination with six shooter pistols being almost universal among young boys who, most of them, had fancy looking cap guns they got for Christmas or birthdays. Almost all of us had them, and we played shoot-em-up games with them. Cowboy movies and comic books and heroes from Tom Mix, to Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, and several others were models which we emulated. A lot of the guys had BB guns. Some acted dangerously, malevolently with them. Later, post-cowboy era, there were some neat hand-guns wielded by movie types like Dirty Harry. Clint Eastwood had a really cool long barrel six gun in his Spaghetti Western movies. There was a kind of reverence for the .44 Magnum among young guys because it was supposedly so powerful, almost God-like among guns. Even now there are a lot of really cool looking and highly effective as well as a great variety of hand guns that owners like to proudly show off and talk about how easily they handle and how accurate they are.

I agree with you that Lanza and this guy (and others) would have done what they did if there were no AR-15s. And this guy, apparently had bombs as well as other guns. Times are different in our society from what they were when I was a kid. And I don't think AR-15s are the reason for that difference.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

I'd think that to fire at that rate and hit anything at much distance would take a lot more skill with a handgun than an AR-15. But a big issue here is simply muzzle velocity, capacity and the ability for victims to survive. The AR-15 was designed for war, not hunting or home protection. This is the opinion of so many military leaders and veteran doctors. A high velocity wound is very deadly.

Handguns certainly have their own cool factor, but it doesn't seem to be much of an influence for the worst mass shootings.

As I've said before, shooting for sport is fun, hunting (most of it) is good and home defense is a real thing. Doesn't mean we need nearly instant access to near military grade weapons.

The Ruger Mini 14 (pic attached below) is more accurate than most AR15s and has been around a helluva lot longer.

The AR15 is like when we used to tune out Abu 6500 series reels - we'd would simply customize them how we woulds want.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don’t know what would happen if things were different. I only know that mass killings not related to terrorism, seem to be frequently carried out by these things. He didn’t pick a handgun. I wouldn’t say the gun caused this. But I’d bet every cent I have, that in some cases, it fuels the fantasy. And I’d be right. I never took a psychology class but I know I’m right. I don’t know that this truth suggests any public policy that addresses it. Im just stating something that I don’t think can be refuted. If there were no such thing as rifles, I’d bet that this guy and Adam Lanza would have done what they did.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

For some perhaps, but for most, the AR15 is a fine shooting, comfortable, customization rifle. Just a Swiss Army knife of a rifle for sport, fun, or even hunting

What we need to do is find a way to get the Adam Lanzas away from firearms.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

The Ruger Mini 14 (pic attached below) is more accurate than most AR15s and has been around a helluva lot longer.

Any so why aren't they used in mass shootings? Is it because they don't have the killing power afforded all those "cosmetic" options or perhaps as Jim says just don't have the sex appeal a killer is looking for?

Easy access to assault weapons is but part of the problem but it is part of the problem.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnR

The Ruger Mini 14 (pic attached below) is more accurate than most AR15s and has been around a helluva lot longer.

The AR15 is like when we used to tune out Abu 6500 series reels - we'd would simply customize them how we woulds want.






For some perhaps, but for most, the AR15 is a fine shooting, comfortable, customization rifle. Just a Swiss Army knife of a rifle for sport, fun, or even hunting

What we need to do is find a way to get the Adam Lanzas away from firearms.

"For some perhaps, but for most, the AR15 is a fine shooting, comfortable, customization rifle. Just a Swiss Army knife of a rifle for sport, fun, or even hunting"

Agreed 100%. I am talking about a very small (not small enough) number of very sick people with dark and violent fantasies. When they snap, they don't usually show up with my granddad's Marlin .22.

I'm not saying we should ban them. I guess I'm just pointing out, that since many here deny that there is any connection between these "sexy" guns and the rare mass killings, it shows how impossible it is to have a productive dialogue. Both sides are too rigid in their ideology.

It's not the guns causing this. You solve a problem, ultimately, by addressing the underlying cause. and the underlying cause, is that we don't care about each other the way we used to. We can put armed guards in schools, we can ban bump stocks and high capacity magazines, and those things might reduce the body count, but they are addressing the symptom, not the underlying problem.

The underlying problem, is that our moral compass is broken. We mock traditional family values, when we should be doing everything we can to encourage them, because they work better than anything else that we know of. Secular progressivism and the internet, are exacerbating the underlying problem. Probably not causing it, but obviously making it worse. 75% of black babies are now born without a dad. Hooray! If that represents some great cultural leap forward, the benefit is sure lost on me.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Yes the fortunately was sarcastic.

The gun is an inanimate object. But certain guns like the AR-15, unfortunately, do fuel the fantasies of a small number of deranged folks. We can’t pretend that’s not true. I’m not saying the gun is the sole cause, but in some cases, it is a contributing factor. Some people are turned on by these guns.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I'm sorry but guns do not fuel these fantasies.

We need to stop coddling our kids, teaching them that everyone wins and that everyone is good

Too many people in this country with good intentions parent with a hands off attitude. If you let the kid dress the part, they will act the part

Too many single parent households or households where both parents are working when the kids come home from school

Too many kids are taught to accept everyone, no matter what there style, what they like how the act, how they dress

Instead we should be teaching our kids things that could be a red flag. Its called street smarts. Tell a teacher or an adult if you think someone is acting threatening,or they are making you uncomfortable.

They interviewed kids after this shooting and they all said they knew he would do this

I am sure some of his friends knew he had a gun, knew he was unstable, knew it was him that made the YouTube video, but no one of them spoke out

How does the FBI who can get FISA warrants on false information not get a warrant to find out who the kid in the YouTube video was

Why didn't the school alert the authorities as to his dangerousness

Why was he let back on school grounds especially after being expelled from 3 different schools on three different occasions

It might be time in this country for public schools to go to a dress code so everyone looks the same,ban outlandish hair styles, make everyone on the same 0laying field so know one persons feelings get hurt.

Its time to have a serious conversation a out public schools and the security they use. Why are there no shootings in private or parochial schools?


I am sick of the lefts response to every shooting get serious because guns aren't going away. There are other amendments to the constitution that prohibit the taking of legally purchased goods that are later outlawed You can ban Assault Weapons but there are enough in circulation that you will never rid the country of them, nor should you want to because they aren't the problem

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

I'm sorry but guns do not fuel these fantasies.

We need to stop coddling our kids, teaching them that everyone wins and that everyone is good

Too many people in this country with good intentions parent with a hands off attitude. If you let the kid dress the part, they will act the part

Too many single parent households or households where both parents are working when the kids come home from school

Too many kids are taught to accept everyone, no matter what there style, what they like how the act, how they dress

Instead we should be teaching our kids things that could be a red flag. Its called street smarts. Tell a teacher or an adult if you think someone is acting threatening,or they are making you uncomfortable.

They interviewed kids after this shooting and they all said they knew he would do this

I am sure some of his friends knew he had a gun, knew he was unstable, knew it was him that made the YouTube video, but no one of them spoke out

How does the FBI who can get FISA warrants on false information not get a warrant to find out who the kid in the YouTube video was

Why didn't the school alert the authorities as to his dangerousness

Why was he let back on school grounds especially after being expelled from 3 different schools on three different occasions

It might be time in this country for public schools to go to a dress code so everyone looks the same,ban outlandish hair styles, make everyone on the same 0laying field so know one persons feelings get hurt.

Its time to have a serious conversation a out public schools and the security they use. Why are there no shootings in private or parochial schools?


I am sick of the lefts response to every shooting get serious because guns aren't going away. There are other amendments to the constitution that prohibit the taking of legally purchased goods that are later outlawed You can ban Assault Weapons but there are enough in circulation that you will never rid the country of them, nor should you want to because they aren't the problem

"I'm sorry but guns do not fuel these fantasies. "

And you'd know this how?

These guns don't perform much differently from other, more boring-looking guns. But the AR-15 is extremely popular. It's partly because of the look.

"Too many single parent households or households where both parents are working when the kids come home from school"

Agreed 100%. A hundred percent. My wife hasn't worked in 7 years, it has been a disaster for our net worth (most of our vacations are camping and we drive old cars), but I wouldn't do it differently. I was at a cub scour trip to a local fire station last night, and you could se these out-of-control 8 year-olds, whose parents could not stop them from behaving terribly.

"Why didn't the school alert the authorities as to his dangerousness"

Bingo. The school would not let this kid have a backpack, yet he was able to get an AR-15. That is insane. If we couldn't spot the red flags this kid was putting up, we aren't doing anything to stop anybody.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Some people are turned on by these guns.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

you mean to say some people are turned on by the POWER the gun has. I doubt it is actually the gun itself.