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Old 03-17-2011, 01:01 PM   #1
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Lybia

US urges UN to approve Libya airstrikes, no-fly zone

The UN vote is scheduled for 6PM ET today, anyone think the B2 bombers are already in the air to disable Gadahfi's air defense systems?

I need spell check, too: Libya

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Old 03-17-2011, 01:52 PM   #2
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Looks like the strategy is moving along well. I think Obama is playing this one perfectly...

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Old 03-17-2011, 01:58 PM   #3
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Quote:
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Looks like the strategy is moving along well. I think Obama is playing this one perfectly...

-spence
I think Gadahfi has a better strategy: recapture the key strategic areas of the country BEFORE the rest of the world, including the US, gets it act together!

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Old 04-14-2011, 12:53 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
Looks like the strategy is moving along well. I think Obama is playing this one perfectly...


d) Actually, if was Qadaffi who was ordering the bombing of civilians and not Maria Carey or Fiddy Cent

Considering the complexity and variability of the situation, its actually not looking all that terrible. Obama seems to have been pretty careful to not make statements or promises we can't keep, something very different from Bush.

And if the UN does impose a no fly zone in Lybia, who's going to stand behind the Lybian Govt? The Sudan??? I'm not sure the regime can survive...

While we don't want to get into a real battle, it does seem like Ghaddafi has crossed the line with his actions...they're going to squeeze him until he pops.

I think the bigger piece is that Khadaffi is now seen as damaged goods by even much of the Arab leadership.

Bush would have made some dramatic remarks about standing up for those who seek freedom, the neocons would have had a circle jerk, and then they'd do nothing.

Justification is because the Libyan government has turned to using the military against their own people without much regard. It looks like they've been bombing and shelling killing just about anyone. I've really some really gruesome stories.

As for Obama's statements, I thought they have been pretty clear on this. While the position of the Administration is that Ghaddafi should go, the legal resolution is only to protect the civilians and as such that is the direct mission.

They appear to be very mindful of the slippery slope and also the strategic situation.

And I think that's exactly the concern...another Rwanda like slaughter.

I wouldn't call this a "war"

Preemptive (or worse preventative) war isn't the same thing as an internationally legal humanitarian mission and you know it...

To assert that killing, bombs etc... is war because it's ugly...well duh.

I heard that today there were aircraft from Qatar over Libya under the UN resolution. This is pretty remarkable.

The situation in Libya is real. Indiscriminate bombing of civilians was occurring.


The situation was deteriorating and heading towards a likely genocide.



-spence


I'M SHOCKED!!!

Boston Globe /Opinion /Op-ed Alan J. Kuperman

False pretense for war in Libya?


By Alan J. Kuperman
April 14, 2011

EVIDENCE IS now in that President Barack Obama grossly exaggerated the humanitarian threat to justify military action in Libya. The president claimed that intervention was necessary to prevent a “bloodbath’’ in Benghazi, Libya’s second-largest city and last rebel stronghold.

But Human Rights Watch has released data on Misurata, the next-biggest city in Libya and scene of protracted fighting, revealing that Moammar Khadafy is not deliberately massacring civilians but rather narrowly targeting the armed rebels who fight against his government.

Misurata’s population is roughly 400,000. In nearly two months of war, only 257 people — including combatants — have died there. Of the 949 wounded, only 22 — less than 3 percent — are women. If Khadafy were indiscriminately targeting civilians, women would comprise about half the casualties.

Obama insisted that prospects were grim without intervention. “If we waited one more day, Benghazi . . . could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.’’ Thus, the president concluded, “preventing genocide’’ justified US military action.

But intervention did not prevent genocide, because no such bloodbath was in the offing. To the contrary, by emboldening rebellion, US interference has prolonged Libya’s civil war and the resultant suffering of innocents.

The best evidence that Khadafy did not plan genocide in Benghazi is that he did not perpetrate it in the other cities he had recaptured either fully or partially — including Zawiya, Misurata, and Ajdabiya, which together have a population greater than Benghazi.

Libyan forces did kill hundreds as they regained control of cities. Collateral damage is inevitable in counter-insurgency. And strict laws of war may have been exceeded.

But Khadafy’s acts were a far cry from Rwanda, Darfur, Congo, Bosnia, and other killing fields. Libya’s air force, prior to imposition of a UN-authorized no-fly zone, targeted rebel positions, not civilian concentrations. Despite ubiquitous cellphones equipped with cameras and video, there is no graphic evidence of deliberate massacre. Images abound of victims killed or wounded in crossfire — each one a tragedy — but that is urban warfare, not genocide.

Nor did Khadafy ever threaten civilian massacre in Benghazi, as Obama alleged. The “no mercy’’ warning, of March 17, targeted rebels only, as reported by The New York Times, which noted that Libya’s leader promised amnesty for those “who throw their weapons away.’’ Khadafy even offered the rebels an escape route and open border to Egypt, to avoid a fight “to the bitter end.’’

If bloodbath was unlikely, how did this notion propel US intervention? The actual prospect in Benghazi was the final defeat of the rebels. To avoid this fate, they desperately concocted an impending genocide to rally international support for “humanitarian’’ intervention that would save their rebellion.

On March 15, Reuters quoted a Libyan opposition leader in Geneva claiming that if Khadafy attacked Benghazi, there would be “a real bloodbath, a massacre like we saw in Rwanda.’’ Four days later, US military aircraft started bombing. By the time Obama claimed that intervention had prevented a bloodbath, The New York Times already had reported that “the rebels feel no loyalty to the truth in shaping their propaganda’’ against Khadafy and were “making vastly inflated claims of his barbaric behavior.’’

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Old 03-17-2011, 02:07 PM   #5
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I think it's taken some time to 1) build the consensus so there's an Arab face on this action rather than being seen as pure US intervention and 2) let it play out a bit. This deal would also give the Saudi Royal Family some cover as they crack down internally and help in Bahrain...NOTE: Both strategic US allies.

As Iran tries to stir the pot there's the Sunni/Shiite dynamic as well here. Iran would really like the (mostly Shiite) protests in Bahrain to be successful.

And the simple fact of what happened in Egypt will put pressure on even the US allies to reform faster.

Ultimately it's probably in our best interest to let these events push reforms more slowly without destabilizing the region or strengthening Iran.

Considering the complexity and variability of the situation, its actually not looking all that terrible. Obama seems to have been pretty careful to not make statements or promises we can't keep, something very different from Bush.

And if the UN does impose a no fly zone in Lybia, who's going to stand behind the Lybian Govt? The Sudan??? I'm not sure the regime can survive...

-spence
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
I think it's taken some time to 1) build the consensus so there's an Arab face on this action rather than being seen as pure US intervention and 2) let it play out a bit.
You're bleeping me? Give it more time. I am not a fan of intervention here (I think maybe Europe steps up on this one and we support that effort). But by the time the admin gets going, this will be all over. If you allow more time for Arab consensus it is long over. The only good new if the Arabs DO IT with an d ARAB face is that at least the Junior Varsity will be going against the Middle School squad. The action windows is nearly closed.

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This deal would also give the Saudi Royal Family some cover as they crack down internally and help in Bahrain...NOTE: Both strategic US allies.
Yes, tough nut to decipher on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
As Iran tries to stir the pot there's the Sunni/Shiite dynamic as well here. Iran would really like the (mostly Shiite) protests in Bahrain to be successful.
Speaking of Iran, arming AQ/Taliban now. And reports are going around that a ship bound for Hamas has been intercepted with Anti Ship Missiles (not RPGs) and a Chinese ship was intercepted with WMD components bound for Iran.

Quote:
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Considering the complexity and variability of the situation, its actually not looking all that terrible. Obama seems to have been pretty careful to not make statements or promises we can't keep, something very different from Bush.
Spencism Alert! Spencism Alert! Spencism Alert!

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And if the UN does impose a no fly zone in Lybia, who's going to stand behind the Lybian Govt? The Sudan??? I'm not sure the regime can survive...

-spence
Well, you could have a repeat of the last two wars in the middle east. No Fly Zones do not occupy territory.

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Old 03-17-2011, 04:59 PM   #7
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You're bleeping me? Give it more time. I am not a fan of intervention here (I think maybe Europe steps up on this one and we support that effort). But by the time the admin gets going, this will be all over. If you allow more time for Arab consensus it is long over. The only good new if the Arabs DO IT with an d ARAB face is that at least the Junior Varsity will be going against the Middle School squad. The action windows is nearly closed.
We'll see how close they really are. Clearly the Admin is not going to go it alone, nor should we. I think the bigger piece is that Khadaffi is now seen as damaged goods by even much of the Arab leadership.

Quote:
Speaking of Iran, arming AQ/Taliban now. And reports are going around that a ship bound for Hamas has been intercepted with Anti Ship Missiles (not RPGs) and a Chinese ship was intercepted with WMD components bound for Iran.
Never seen a report of Iran arming al Qaeda. Sending arms to Palestine is nothing new...

Quote:
Spencism Alert! Spencism Alert! Spencism Alert!
No, it's just a remark. And one I think that's defend-able. Bush would have made some dramatic remarks about standing up for those who seek freedom, the neocons would have had a circle jerk, and then they'd do nothing.

Quote:
Well, you could have a repeat of the last two wars in the middle east. No Fly Zones do not occupy territory.
I think the calculus in Libya might not be in Khadaffi's favor. The real end game may be to get regime ending concessions.

-spence
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:31 PM   #8
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We'll see how close they really are. Clearly the Admin is not going to go it alone, nor should we. I think the bigger piece is that Khadaffi is now seen as damaged goods by even much of the Arab leadership.


Never seen a report of Iran arming al Qaeda. Sending arms to Palestine is nothing new...


No, it's just a remark. And one I think that's defend-able. Bush would have made some dramatic remarks about standing up for those who seek freedom, the neocons would have had a circle jerk, and then they'd do nothing.


I think the calculus in Libya might not be in Khadaffi's favor. The real end game may be to get regime ending concessions.

-spence
Window is closing. Center of gravity was Tripoli, now it is Benghazi. Window. Closing. No time for high end fencing around an issue. Not that I support it...

Quote:
Never seen a report of Iran arming al Qaeda. Sending arms to Palestine is nothing new...
One of several reports but I'll use the NYTimes one: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/wo...st/10iran.html


China-Iran - take your pick (though it is earlier in this news story) Google

Obama when he doesn't do something or pick a side is good while displaying a certain elan and obvious high intelligence lost on the masses, Bush is bad - I get it.

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Old 03-17-2011, 02:34 PM   #9
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why are we getting involved here?
I think we should stay away. All the neighboring countries have armies and air forces, why arent they sending them in?
US should stay out. We have nothing to gain there except get more blame from them for their problems
I know peoples memories are short but a year or so ago we were applauding Ghadafi for his support and now he is a brutal dictator? come on

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Old 03-17-2011, 02:46 PM   #10
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why are we getting involved here?
I think we should stay away. All the neighboring countries have armies and air forces, why arent they sending them in?
US should stay out. We have nothing to gain there except get more blame from them for their problems
I know peoples memories are short but a year or so ago we were applauding Ghadafi for his support and now he is a brutal dictator? come on
I think we're trying to draw a line between the brutal regimes we want to support and the brutal regimes we think are ripe for accelerated reform.

While we don't want to get into a real battle, it does seem like Ghaddafi has crossed the line with his actions...they're going to squeeze him until he pops.

-spence
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:04 PM   #11
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It's a go for bombing!
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:12 PM   #12
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labial rejuvenation
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:29 PM   #13
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they (daffy) will target the oil field i bet b4 the bombers arrive
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:14 PM   #14
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so O is on TV threatening action against Libya. Not the UN, not the Arabs, us....can someone tell me WHY?

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Old 03-18-2011, 02:51 PM   #15
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so O is on TV threatening action against Libya. Not the UN, not the Arabs, us....can someone tell me WHY?
Well, there seems to be pretty strong support from EU and the other Arab nations.

Justification is because the Libyan government has turned to using the military against their own people without much regard. It looks like they've been bombing and shelling killing just about anyone. I've really some really gruesome stories.

Fear is that atrocities will increase and cause a humanitarian crisis which would destabilize the region, especially considering the events in Tunisia and Egypt right next door.

At least that's the reasoning he gave when he spoke today.

-spence
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:39 PM   #16
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Well, there seems to be pretty strong support from EU and the other Arab nations.

Justification is because the Libyan government has turned to using the military against their own people without much regard. It looks like they've been bombing and shelling killing just about anyone. I've really some really gruesome stories.

Fear is that atrocities will increase and cause a humanitarian crisis which would destabilize the region, especially considering the events in Tunisia and Egypt right next door.

At least that's the reasoning he gave when he spoke today.

-spence
Well thankfully he got off the golf course and said something. Now he can send Hillary out in the world to do his bidding.

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Old 03-18-2011, 04:29 PM   #17
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Well thankfully he got off the golf course and said something. Now he can send Hillary out in the world to do his bidding.
Quite thoughtful analysis. And you didn't even have to bring up his Islamic heritage!

-spence
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:50 PM   #18
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he's not golfing -he's in rio for carnivale! what a tool...

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Old 03-18-2011, 03:36 PM   #19
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so O is on TV threatening action against Libya. Not the UN, not the Arabs, us....can someone tell me WHY?
it's for the campaign of course !

looking like our fearless leader big and bold

he da man ....photo op city (and sound bite)

a President in control as leader of the world
makes him APPEAR to be more re-electable

in a NUTSHELL
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Old 03-19-2011, 09:28 PM   #20
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Wherever he is/was he gave the OK to launch 110 Tomahawk missiles at Libya!

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Old 03-20-2011, 04:32 AM   #21
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Thumbs up

project
O.D. well under way
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:09 AM   #22
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I am starting to see a pattern here. I think Spence is really Obama.......

At the very least either his press secretary or the head groupie of his fan club


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Old 03-20-2011, 06:51 AM   #23
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I am starting to see a pattern here. I think Spence is really Obama.......
Now that's a compliment

-spence
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:57 AM   #24
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my bad spencey...he's still a $%^%$ tool . how many times has he been on the golf course- close to 50. who's he think he is- tiger woods?

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Old 03-20-2011, 07:05 AM   #25
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my bad spencey...he's still a $%^%$ tool . how many times has he been on the golf course- close to 50. who's he think he is- tiger woods?
How many hours a day do you think he's actively working on average?

12?

14?

-spence
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:07 AM   #26
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How many hours a day do you think he's actively working on average?

12?

14?

-spence
since you know all obama, why don't you tell us...

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Old 03-20-2011, 07:31 AM   #27
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My bad he was golfing while Japan was under water. I never said anything about Islamic heritage. I could really give a hoot what his religion is. Doesn't affect my world. I could care less. He was Picking out his brackets while Libya was burning.

None of it matters. Until people decide this country is more important than red or blue we are all going to spin our wheels. As long as people like you Spence sit back on your throne and justify and rationalize moves by politicians based on red or blue we are all screwed.

There is zero accountability in government anymore. There hasn't been for quite a while. Our officials are the new Celebrity and people believe what is put in front of them by Couric, Williams and others.

So enjoy sitting back writing your quippy remarks and feel good about how intelligent your responses are. After all you are debating politics with the people that are affected by them. Not the people that practice them. We are all the real world and we live and die in the confines of what has been laid forth for us and make the best of it.

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Old 03-20-2011, 11:21 AM   #28
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I heard Michelle is so upset over this and has implemented a no fly zone over her Lybia until this situation is resolved.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:25 PM   #29
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A common theme stated by me is that the US is *not* the world's police force.

We waited for a UN resolution before taking part in this. Quite frankly, I'm glad the US waited for a multi-national resolution as opposed to making the same mistake twice and jumping into a fight on it's own.

It was declared early that US activity would be supportive with all major roles completed over a few days. We aren't holding the reins in this mess and I'm glad for that.

Now, if the US went into this fight alone, the same people complaining that he waited too long to attack would be bitching that we're paying for yet another war. Bitching just to bitch.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about what happens in N. Africa and the Middle East. The entire region is a train wreck and our money would be much better spent towards domestic issues than drone strikes in Pakistan, a futile war in Afghanistan and keeping troops in that ungrateful toilet that is Iraq.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:48 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=JohnnyD;845762]A common theme stated by me is that the US is *not* the world's police force.

We waited for a UN resolution before taking part in this. Quite frankly, I'm glad the US waited for a multi-national resolution as opposed to making the same mistake twice and jumping into a fight on it's own.

It was declared early that US activity would be supportive with all major roles completed over a few days. [QUOTE]

__________________________________________________ __________

I agree we shouldn't be the world's police force.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Multi-national resolution or not WE will end up taking the blame as we are taking
91% of the up front action anyway.

__________________________________________________ ___________
Who ever declared early that the US activity would be supportive with all major
rolls completed over a few days must have been the funnie weed.

Which of Obama's statements is true. Gaddafi must go or we are there just to
help the people?

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