Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

     

Left Nav S-B Home Register FAQ Members List S-B on Facebook Arcade WEAX Tides Buoys Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Right Nav

Left Container Right Container
 

Go Back   Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating » Striper Chat - Discuss stuff other than fishing ~ The Scuppers and Political talk » Political Threads

Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

 
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-29-2017, 09:57 AM   #61
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
So you're saying he was stupid?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Bad info. Things change. Etc...
spence is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 10:21 AM   #62
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso View Post
its the Fable of the Snake

One winter a farmer (voter)found a snake (Trump)stiff and frozen with cold. He had compassion on it, and taking it up, placed it in his bosom. The warmth quickly revived the Snake, and resuming its natural instincts, bit its benefactor, inflicting on him a mortal wound.
You do realize that you can make anyone or any group or any ideology the "snake" in your fable. e.g.--Obama, Clinton, illegal immigrants, Muslim refugees, McCain, Democrat Party, Republican Party, Socialism, etc. The "snake" is in the eye of the beholder.
detbuch is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 10:23 AM   #63
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Bad info. Things change. Etc...
Isn't most stupidity the result of bad info?
detbuch is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 10:29 AM   #64
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
Isn't most stupidity the result of bad info?
No.
spence is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 12:29 PM   #65
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
No.
Merriam-Webster Definition of stupid
1
a :slow of mind btuse

The speed of mind (whatever that is) does not, in itself, prevent right or wrong, good or bad, decisions or ideas. Given the right (good) info, a slow mind can make a good decision. Or, given wrong info the slow mind, or fast mind, can make a bad decision

b :given to unintelligent decisions or acts :acting in an unintelligent or careless manner

If intelligence is defined as "one's capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, planning, creativity, and problem solving . . . more generally described as the ability or inclination to perceive or deduce information, and to retain it as knowledge," it would require good info to gather and retain knowledge that is beneficially useful. An "intelligent" person (Lenin for example) whose knowledge is composed of bad info would necessarily have bad knowledge, which would be considered "stupid" because it would lead to harmful or destructive or useless or "unintelligent" decisions or acts.

c :lacking intelligence or reason :brutish

Don't know how one can lack intelligence other than either your mind being filled with bad info or your brain being functionally, physically deficient (which would be a result of its receptors not receiving sufficient or good info).

2
:dulled in feeling or sensation :torpid still stupid from the sedative

Again, for whatever reason, being physically unable or disabled from receiving signals (info) relating to actual conditions.

3
:marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting :senseless a stupid decision

Reason requires information. Bad info leads to bad reasoning.

4
a :lacking interest or point a stupid event

It requires info to create "interest" or "point." No info leads to no interest or point. Ergo, an event about which there is no info, or bad info could be considered a "stupid" event.

b :vexatious, exasperating the stupid car won't start

This is totally a colloquial expression. A car is not actually stupid, it is inanimate. Metaphorically, however, it won't start because it's "brain" (its mechanism) is not receiving the mechanical signals (info) in order to function properly. And the ensuing exasperation of the would be driver results from his immediate inability (lack of knowledge or info) to make the car start. He emotionally blames the car, but eventually settles down and gets help from those who have the proper info to get the car working.

So, yes, bad info which includes lack of info (which is a bad thing) is the cause of most stupidity.
detbuch is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 12:45 PM   #66
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
That was a really long response. I'd just say in this context it's more about a lack of curiosity to understand or an inability to understand.
spence is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 01:39 PM   #67
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
That was a really long response. I'd just say in this context it's more about a lack of curiosity to understand or an inability to understand.
Lacking the curiosity to understand something is endemic to somewhere in the highest percentile of the human population. Except for a miniscule minority, most of us lack the curiosity to understand SOME things. That doesn't make us stupid. Just willingly ignorant in those areas which we lack curiosity.

And the "inability to understand" is either a lack of the physical mental capability to function at the normal human level, which is not "stupid" except in the sense that the brain is not able to process information. That is, it is not capable of properly receiving information. In which case only mentally impaired people would, by your definition, be "stupid." That is not how that word is used.

Or, otherwise, in a physically sound brain/body connection, the "inability to understand" would be a result of bad information as described in my "really long response."

I'll stick with Webster's definition over yours.
detbuch is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 03:51 PM   #68
wdmso
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Somerset MA
Posts: 9,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
You do realize that you can make anyone or any group or any ideology the "snake" in your fable. e.g.--Obama, Clinton, illegal immigrants, Muslim refugees, McCain, Democrat Party, Republican Party, Socialism, etc. The "snake" is in the eye of the beholder.

No just Trump in my example .. the eye of the beholder has nothing to do with its the actions of the snake that concern me

you knew what he was when you picked him up...
wdmso is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 05:30 PM   #69
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso View Post
No just Trump in my example .. the eye of the beholder has nothing to do with its the actions of the snake that concern me

you knew what he was when you picked him up...
It's true that your eye saw your example. That's a tautology. A needless repetition. It's also true that other's eyes could see the opposite example, or the examples I gave. Your example is your opinion. Others would disagree with you, and others would give whatever variation of examples they came up with. They all would be as valid as yours.

You used a "fable" as a metaphor for what you think is reality. A reality that is contingent on future possibility. A reality based on biased opinion. Your thrice removed from reality metaphor is no better or truer in any real sense than other such metaphors.

In short, your little fiction is not worth much.

And yes, I knew something about what he was, as I did about his opponent. When I considered what would be the most important outcome in terms of the impact either candidate would have on our constitutional form of government, the choice was not difficult. There have been several scoundrel Presidents who, in spite of their flaws, did not damage our system of government. There have been some very "intelligent," slick ones who promised various collective groups more money in their pocket, but did harm to our constitutional foundation in order to fulfill their promises. And individuals in the collective groups were happy to get their goodies, not concerned about the change in the nature and power of government.

Using your fable as metaphor for the harmless, even beneficial sounding, snake, brought to life by voters who cared more for their pockets than for a system that guaranteed them freedom, I insert in place of the snake all the Progressive Presidents of the past whose resuscitation by unaware, ignorant, voters brought us to the point where we either elected another one of them who could potentially wrap her Progressive snake body around the Constitution and squeeze the final life out of it (after all, it's a living breathing thing, right?), or elect a reproachable character who might do one of the things left, and necessary, to help reverse the trend. You know, the supposedly "stolen" Justice. Hopefully Trump gets the chance to nominate a few more.

And if expanding your pocketbook a little more is so important to you that you would prefer, in order to get a few more shekels, an unbridled government which can dictate what and how your life is, and spend our way to oblivion in order to hold on to its power, then I don't give a fig about your little, useless fable.

Last edited by detbuch; 10-29-2017 at 07:53 PM..
detbuch is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 05:30 PM   #70
JohnR
Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
iTrader: (1)
 
JohnR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 34,942
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
None of those are lies.
Not to a Strategic Messaging guy that can pirouette around a tune - but to most other non-beleivers it was crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
So you're saying he was stupid?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I think he was pretty smart but he is a politician with a streak of narcissism mixed with bad ideology

Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
They found the IRS acted improperly out of convenience, not political motivation.
The evidence was on Lerner's hard drive

~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~

Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers


Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.


Apocalypse is Coming:
JohnR is offline  
Old 10-29-2017, 06:28 PM   #71
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
They found the IRS acted improperly out of convenience, not political motivation.
"conservative groups that had their applications for tax exempt status delayed “based solely on their viewpoint or ideology"

http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/26/ju..._medium=Social
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:43 PM   #72
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/u...democrats.html

WASHINGTON — A federal watchdog investigating whether the Internal Revenue Service unfairly targeted conservative political groups seeking tax-exempt status said that the agency also scrutinized organizations associated with liberal causes from 2004 to 2013.

The findings by the Treasury Department’s inspector general mark the end of a political firestorm that embroiled the I.R.S. in controversy, led to the ouster of its commissioner and prompted accusations the tax collection agency was being used as a political weapon by the Obama administration.

The exhaustive report, which examined nine years worth of applications for tax-exempt status, comes after a similar audit in 2013 found that groups with conservative names like “Tea Party,” “patriot” or “9/12” were unfairly targeted for further review.
PaulS is offline  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:42 PM   #73
Slipknot
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
Slipknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Middleboro MA
Posts: 17,119
So what, they also targeted Democrats. Big deal, they must be so proud of their smokescreen. I say it marks the end of the watchdog investigating, not the end of the firestorm or controversy.
Maybe Obama is a saint

The United States Constitution does not exist to grant you rights; those rights are inherent within you. Rather it exists to frame a limited government so that those natural rights can be exercised freely.

1984 was a warning, not a guidebook!

It's time more people spoke up with the truth. Every time we let a leftist lie go uncorrected, the commies get stronger.
Slipknot is offline  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:22 PM   #74
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipknot View Post
So what, they also targeted Democrats. Big deal, they must be so proud of their smokescreen. I say it marks the end of the watchdog investigating, not the end of the firestorm or controversy.
Maybe Obama is a saint
Maybe, just maybe...there's no conspiracy.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
spence is offline  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:24 PM   #75
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipknot View Post
So what, they also targeted Democrats. Big deal, they must be so proud of their smokescreen. I say it marks the end of the watchdog investigating, not the end of the firestorm or controversy.
Maybe Obama is a saint
Just pointing out that they only didn't target Republicans for all who have brought this subject up numerous times. So the "firestorm or controversy" should continue on even though there's nothing here? that's a good one.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Last edited by PaulS; 11-06-2017 at 09:01 PM..
PaulS is offline  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:52 PM   #76
Slipknot
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
Slipknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Middleboro MA
Posts: 17,119
I thought you'd like that
Slipknot is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 03:46 AM   #77
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
Just pointing out that they only didn't target Republicans for all who have brought this subject up numerous times. So the "firestorm or controversy" should continue on even though there's nothing here? that's a good one.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Jim wrote...."conservative groups that had their applications for tax exempt status delayed “based solely on their viewpoint or ideology"

your article simply confirms that this was happening after years of denial and claims that this was not the case...that some liberal groups were scrutinized should not be news as all applications should have been "scrutinized" through the process....the complaint was that applications were unfairly delayed based on viewpoint/ideology.....based on what has been reported, Lerner and crew were overstepping their bounds...not surprised the NY Times took this angle on the story

“The IRS admits that its treatment of Plaintiffs during the tax-exempt determination process, including screening their applications based on their names or policy positions, subjecting those applications to heightened scrutiny and inordinate delays, and demanding some Plaintiffs’ information that TITA determined was unnecessary to the agency’s determination of their tax-exempt status, was wrong,” the IRS said in court documents. “For such treatment, the IRS expresses its sincere apology.”

Last edited by scottw; 11-07-2017 at 04:37 AM..
scottw is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 07:50 AM   #78
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
The IRS targeted both sides as a shortcut bc they were overwhelmed due to a lack of personnel and a huge increase in entities applying for non profit status. There was no political targeting like what happened w/Nixon and other Pres.

The whining is funny.
PaulS is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 07:59 AM   #79
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
The IRS targeted both sides as a shortcut bc they were overwhelmed due to a lack of personnel and a huge increase in entities applying for non profit status. There was no political targeting like what happened w/Nixon and other Pres.

The whining is funny.
who is whining?...winning?...yes... the IRS/DOJ settled with hundreds of groups...apparently no wrong doing...The DOJ reached an undisclosed monetary settlement with over 400 conservative groups that had their applications for tax exempt status delayed “based solely on their viewpoint or ideology,” Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced Thursday.

someone should notify Trump that you and the left have no problem with the IRS acting in such a way going forward....he'll have fun with that
scottw is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 08:37 AM   #80
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
Complaining that they targeted Cons. when they also targeted Libs. is whining. No one said it was appropriate.
PaulS is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 08:51 AM   #81
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
Complaining that they targeted Cons. when they also targeted Libs. is whining. No one said it was appropriate.
your article only stated that a few lib keywords were used...there was no mention that or if those groups after being "identified" were subjected to the same harassment that the conservative groups alleged...

they clearly targeted and impeded conservative groups...not sure regarding the lib groups...we'll assume that they(libs) wouldn't mind..OK
scottw is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:14 AM   #82
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
Complaining that they targeted Cons. when they also targeted Libs. is whining. No one said it was appropriate.
The DOJ concluded that conservative groups were specifically targeted because of their ideology. Come on, Paul.
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:16 AM   #83
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
The DOJ concluded that conservative groups were specifically targeted because of their ideology. Come on, Paul.
They looked at keywords, ideology, etc. bc they were trying to determine if they were social orgs. and not political. Low level ees made that decision.

What did Obama have to do w/it other than fire the head of the agency bc Obama viewed it as wrong?

I guess the moral is that the Repub. shouldn't starve an agency of the necessary funds to do its job.
PaulS is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:08 PM   #84
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post

I guess the moral is that the Repub. shouldn't starve an agency of the necessary funds to do its job.
I thought they were stretched thin because Obamacare was taking all their time and effort
scottw is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:11 PM   #85
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post

they were trying to determine if they were social orgs. and not political.
why?
scottw is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:40 PM   #86
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
BC to be a nonprofit there are certain requirements. Maybe there are different type of nonprofit status' and for the status they were applying required they not engage in political activities.
PaulS is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:13 PM   #87
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
They looked at keywords, ideology, etc. bc they were trying to determine if they were social orgs. and not political. Low level ees made that decision.

What did Obama have to do w/it other than fire the head of the agency bc Obama viewed it as wrong?

I guess the moral is that the Repub. shouldn't starve an agency of the necessary funds to do its job.
"Low level ees made that decision. " Agreed. But it happened. You seemed to be saying that conservatives were not targeted by the IRS.

"What did Obama have to do w/it "

Nothing. It happened on his watch though. Except these employees, presumably, thought they were doing the just thing. I wonder where they got that idea.
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:17 PM   #88
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
BC to be a nonprofit there are certain requirements. Maybe there are different type of nonprofit status' and for the status they were applying required they not engage in political activities.
you can't seem to settle on whether it was ok because they did it to everyone, or that it's not ok, or that it was intentional or that it was a mistake
scottw is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 02:05 PM   #89
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
"Low level ees made that decision. " Agreed. But it happened. You seemed to be saying that conservatives were not targeted by the IRS.never said that. There were more Cons. target than Lib. but there more Cons. applying.

"What did Obama have to do w/it "

Nothing. It happened on his watch though. Except these employees, presumably, thought they were doing the just thing. I wonder where they got that idea.
NM
PaulS is offline  
Old 11-07-2017, 02:07 PM   #90
PaulS
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
PaulS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw View Post
you can't seem to settle on whether it was ok because they did it to everyone, or that it's not ok, or that it was intentional or that it was a mistake
See post 80.
PaulS is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Please use all necessary and proper safety precautions. STAY SAFE Striper Talk Forums
Copyright 1998-20012 Striped-Bass.com