And I thought I had seen it all...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you try to understand what Iran has to gain by filtering their thoughts and desires through YOUR brain, you will, in effect, decide what THEY want to gain by what YOU think it is worth it for them to gain. I don't think the leaders of Iran view life, the world, the way you, or I, or the West does. What they consider gain is probably worlds apart from our opinion.

[Filtered through our secular Western eyes] Iran and everybody else in the world, is basically like us. Go along to get along. Social justice, equality, everybody pursuing their individual dreams. Respect for the integrity of other nations. Hey, if Obama and Iran get together on a deal, the mullahs will recognize Israel's right to exist, correct?

Is it conceivable, in your mind Spence, that what Iran [its theocratic rulers] wants to gain is not only nuclear weapons but a stronger more secure face to the West, whom it considers an enemy to its values, and the power, through military might and powerful alliances to face down the West, even defeat it? [Isn't that what the Iranian leaders SAY]

Obama's address to the Iranian people exemplifies this myopic, self-centered view of the world:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...rack-obama-usa

Who is he talking to? Voices, as Sea Dangles might say, in his own head? Voices that agree with him and see the world as he does?

Is he talking to the common people in Iran who he thinks surely must view the world as he does? Where was he during the hope of the "other" Green Movement that Spence regrets was not successful? He spoke encouraging words but did nothing else to support their movement to overthrow the mullahs and gain democracy. Yet the Iranian people see that he takes action to sabotage Netanyahu's re-election. And now threatens to throw Israel's independence to the dogs in the U.N. He interferes in Libya, in Syria, in Egypt, and those all become a mess. He abandon's the democracy gained in Iraq, and it becomes a mess again and is increasingly falling into the clutches of the very oppressive regime that the Iranian people want to be free of. What do the common people see of Obama exercising his words and views in his own country? Contrary to the words of their own Green Path leader Mousani "you can't follow some parts of the [Iranian] Constitution and throw the rest into a bin" Obama does exactly that here. And acting more and more like a dictator rather than a servant of the people. They see him abandoning his democratic allies in their neck of the woods, cozying up to the dictators, making rationalizations about the Islamic nature of ISIS, so how are they supposed to view his patronizing and rather empty message of encouragement to them?

Is he speaking to Khamenei and the mullahs? Really? Do they see their celebration as he does? He says:

"Indeed, you will be celebrating your New Year in much the same way that we Americans mark our holidays – by
gathering with friends and family, exchanging gifts and stories, and looking to the future with a renewed sense of hope.
Within these celebrations lies the promise of a new day, the promise of opportunity for our children, security for our families, progress for our communities, and peace between nations. Those are shared hopes, those are common dreams."

Does he really believe those are dreams common between him and the mullahs? That the ultimate leader, Khamenei, shares those dreams in common with him? Is their any possibility, in his mind, that they not only view the world and their place in it differently than he does? Haven't they SAID so? But never mind what they say. What HE says is the real reality. As he is demonstrating with Israel and what Netanyahu said to get elected. He is only going to believe his version of what Netanyahu said re the so-called two state solution. Even though Netanyahu says that he would consider it with certain reservations--EXACTLY THE SAME RESERVATIONS that he and Israel had all along. But no, only what Obama understands, sees, believes is, in his own self-centered mind, the truth of the matter.

And he cannot, or will not, recognize that his view, what he sees to be the "common dreams," would actually be the demise of Khamenei and mullah rule of Iran. And, therefor, that any "negotiation" which would threaten that rule, and deny its desired power and expansion throughout the Middle East, would not be accepted by the Iranian theocrats.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you try to understand what Iran has to gain by filtering their thoughts and desires through YOUR brain, you will, in effect, decide what THEY want to gain by what YOU think it is worth it for them to gain. I don't think the leaders of Iran view life, the world, the way you, or I, or the West does. What they consider gain is probably worlds apart from our opinion.

[Filtered through our secular Western eyes] Iran and everybody else in the world, is basically like us. Go along to get along. Social justice, equality, everybody pursuing their individual dreams. Respect for the integrity of other nations. Hey, if Obama and Iran get together on a deal, the mullahs will recognize Israel's right to exist, correct?

Is it conceivable, in your mind Spence, that what Iran [its theocratic rulers] wants to gain is not only nuclear weapons but a stronger more secure face to the West, whom it considers an enemy to its values, and the power, through military might and powerful alliances to face down the West, even defeat it? [Isn't that what the Iranian leaders SAY]

I don't think you have to look at the situation through any lens, there's plenty of history to establish likely motives and predictable actions.

Certainly the US and Iranian leadership differ on many values, but I think we've become mistakenly tuned to this idea that Iran's policy is driven by an irrational group of clerics and as such any effort to engage will only legitimize irrationality. Sure, Iran wants to be stronger but I don't believe they want to defeat the West. Hell, remember just after 9/11 they were actively engaged in helping the US target the Taliban as it was a shared interest.

This attitude will certainly just make things worse. Like it or not Iran is and will always be a significant component stability or chaos in the Middle East. Disengagement over the past 30 years doesn't seem to have helped and in fact has likely made things worse.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Certainly the US and Iranian leadership differ on many values, but I think we've become mistakenly tuned to this idea that Iran's policy is driven by an irrational group of clerics and as such any effort to engage will only legitimize irrationality. Sure, Iran wants to be stronger but I don't believe they want to defeat the West. Hell, remember just after 9/11 they were actively engaged in helping the US target the Taliban as it was a shared interest.

This attitude will certainly just make things worse. Like it or not Iran is and will always be a significant component stability or chaos in the Middle East. Disengagement over the past 30 years doesn't seem to have helped and in fact has likely made things worse.

"we've become mistakenly tuned to this idea that Iran's policy is driven by an irrational group of clerics...Sure, Iran wants to be stronger but I don't believe they want to defeat the West "

There you have it...

From the mouth of President Ahmadinejad...

""Anyone who loves freedom and justice must strive for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the way for world justice and freedom.” "

"Ahmadinejad, who has called the Holocaust a myth, has previously called for Israel's annihilation, in a 2005 speech in which he used a Persian phrase that translates literally as "wiped off the page of time."

http://www.jpost.com/Iranian-Threat/...ihilate-Israel

He also called the 9/11 attacks "a "big lie intended to serve as a pretext for fighting terrorism and setting the grounds for sending troops to Afghanistan,"

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...tan/index.html

And the Iranian mullahs support the notion of stoning women to death, and executing homosexuals.

Nope, according to Spence, there is nothing the least bit irrational going on in Iran. No reason to be concerned if they get a nuke. So Obama was right to sit on his hands over the whole thing, and therefore deserves a second Nobel Peace Prize.