this mosque thing is blowin up for Barry

[Circlehook]

Obama shouldn't have a stance or an opinion on this either way. If he does, it should not be public. Seperation of church and state.

We don't hear his opinion on construction of churchs or temples.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

ahh - see how you are blinded?

No.

No wants to "take away their rights".

Sure they do. Some want to take away their "right" to move forward with their "already approved permits" simply because of their religion.

We have religious freedom, but we alos have freedom of speech. Is it wrong for people to question and react to this?

People obviously have the right to their opinion...it becomes an issue when it impacts the freedoms of others.

People believe it is insensitive to do this in that area.
I would think Muslims would understand, no? I mean they (and this is NOT RADICALS) have made death threats for cartoon artisits and writers. they require their woman to cover their faces. they must undertstand emotions, no?

To do what? Live? Pray? Exercise?

Should we declare Manhatten a "Muslim Free Zone" because it might scare somebody into believing there's going to be another attack...ANY SECOND?

During the recession you saw a lot more women from the Middle East shopping in Boston, some covered head to toe with only a slit for the eyes exposed. I'd have to think this made some people more than a little nervous what with 9/11 and all.

Should we ban that as well?

You're on the slippery slope.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Circlehook

Obama shouldn't have a stance or an opinion on this either way. If he does, it should not be public. Seperation of church and state.

We don't hear his opinion on construction of churchs or temples.

Obama's remark was targeted at the Constitutional aspect, which as POTUS he's sworn to uphold.

-spence

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Obama's remark was targeted at the Constitutional aspect, which as POTUS he's sworn to uphold.

-spence

Then he did a great job. If you consider flip-flopping upholding the Constitution.

Bottom line in all of this is that he made a comment on something without the White House having any idea he was going to. Then, when he realized that the publicity to his comments was negative, he decided to try to talk his way out of it. This made the story much bigger than it should be because he looks weak or indecisive for his flip-flop.

Personally, I think it's great. The negative press should have been on the Palins and Gingrich's of the world, yet Obama's taking the brunt of it. I't's like the Cambridge police situation.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

No.


Sure they do. Some want to take away their "right" to move forward with their "already approved permits" simply because of their religion.



-spence

no - MOST (not some Spence, polls say MOST) believe it is insensitive to the families of the deceased to erect a muslim center close to ground zzero because the murder of these people was committed in the name of __________ by people the people who are in the ____________ religion.
There is no "simply". It is understandable.

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Then he did a great job. If you consider flip-flopping upholding the Constitution.

I didn't see any flip flop, he simply clarified his remark as pertaining to the legal rather than ethical or emotional aspects of the issue.

Politically it may have not been the best thing to do as it's opened up a can of worms, but that's a different issue.

-spence

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

I didn't see any flip flop, he simply clarified his remark as pertaining to the legal rather than ethical or emotional aspects of the issue.

Politically it may have not been the best thing to do as it's opened up a can of worms, but that's a different issue.

-spence

He flip flopped.




flip-flop


noun (plural flip-flops)

Definition:

1. dress backless sandal: a backless foam-rubber sandal with a V-shaped strap secured between the toes and at the sides of the foot ( informal )


2. North America change of mind: a change of opinion, especially by a politician ( informal )

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by Circlehook

Obama shouldn't have a stance or an opinion on this either way. If he does, it should not be public. Seperation of church and state.

We don't hear his opinion on construction of churchs or temples.

This was his 2nd bad opinion. His 1st was when he took the Cambridge cop to task. The professor, Mr. Bates is a racist as is the President. Do not forget who this Prisidents mentor was and still is for the past 20 years,"Rev. Wright."

Further more the Taliban is in the White House.

[scottw]

will women be allowed to attend the trophy mosque?...or will they have to enter with the children through a small hatch in a back alley and worship in the basement with the livestock?


Police remove Muslim women from US mosque for breaking segregation rules


Police were called by an imam conducting a rug-butting session attended by around 20 men after Fatima Thompson, a convert to Islam, entered the male-only area with five “progressive” supporters.


The imam interrupted prayers to announce by microphone:

We are going to wait, because some people came to disturb the prayer, until the police come and take care of this issue.

Within minutes, three police officers arrived and told the women to leave or face arrest.

Washington police enforcing sharia law? Who woulda thunk it?

Thompson, who converted to Islam 18 years ago, said:

Wooden barriers have to be taken down and women have to be allowed to join, to pray behind the men in the main praying area. That’s our request.

She added:

We are against gender segregation, against the fact that women are put aside or in a totally different room at the mosque.

The Sunday protest was the second time women have sought to share the main prayer area at the mosque in Washington DC, after a group of women first tried in February.

Thompson said.

The general issue we are pushing is gender segregation and the ramifications it fosters. It’s not healthy, and not reflective of our society here. It’s very reflective of very restrictive, ultra orthodox societies.

Their hair covered with headscarves, the group entered the mosque’s prayer area via the main door usually reserved for men. Women and children ordinarily enter the Washington mosque, located in the city’s embassy district, through a small door hidden behind a screen.

Asra Nomani, a Muslim feminist who has participated in similar protests elsewhere in the United States, said:

If you are black in this country they can’t tell you to sit in a corner but if you are a woman they can.

The source of contention, according to Bare Naked Islam, is a small room created with seven foot high wooden walls. Jannah B’int Hannah describes how she feels in there where she cannot see the imam, or leader of the mosque, speak.

Boxed in, stifling, suffocating and totally a second class citizen.

Last month, Hannah and approximately 20 other women entered the main hall to pray, but D C police were called. They asked them to leave or be arrested.

Syed Burmi, the imam of Islamic Society of Western Maryland, says the physical separation helps maintain women’s privacy and modesty as well as keeps the focus on prayer.

"If I stand next to a lady or a woman stands next to me, maybe the focus will change and no longer be on God the Almighty. So that’s why we put the partition".

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It's been a while since I've seen people attempt to legitimately justify their own bigotry and ignorance.

Hey buck, how about we put all the Muslims in internment camps like they did with the Japanese during WWII?




*Edit* Damn you nebe for beating me to a WWII reference.

Good point JD. I never thought of that.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

You're blending up a lot of issues into a sticky mess.

There's a very vocal part of the Right wing in this country that's absolutely anti-Islam. Of this I don't think there can be much debate. You also have a punditry who will use "tolerance" issues to attack Liberals in the political area for short-term gain.

There's also plenty of condemnation for acts of "terrorism" all around. I'd note that you say the "Muslims" that commit these crimes and not the "terrorists" that commit this crimes?

As for a shrine, once again you're lumping terrorists with mainstream Muslims. It's almost as if you believe they should feel guilty for 9/11.

The irony in all of this is that it's exactly what Bin Laden had hoped to achieve. Americans taking away the rights of Muslims in the US because of their faith. And then you wonder why there's such anti-US sentiment in the Islamic world...

-spence

Since I've been labaled a member of the KKK, and your insane, how about we let the firemen and policemen decide where it should go???

Come to think of it...they better build it flame proof because response time may be a little slow. They are short a few of their finest since the towers were destroyed.

FYI, just in case you forgot that was the second time the um.. terrorist, bombed it.

You were wrong about the trial in NY and you will be wrong about this.

[PaulS]

Check out the Mosque only 80 feet from the Pentagon. Your heads will explode.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Check out the Mosque only 80 feet from the Pentagon. Your heads will explode.

factcheck....

The truth is that there is no "mosque" in the Pentagon, according to Army spokesman George Wright. There is a chapel inside the Pentagon where Muslim employees can go to pray, as ABC News recently reported. It’s just not exclusive to followers of Islam.

The Pentagon’s non-denominational chapel was built and dedicated in 2002 in honor of Pentagon employees and passengers of American Airlines Flight 77 who died in the terrorist attack on the building on Sept. 11, 2001. The chapel was constructed at the site where the hijacked plane crashed into the Pentagon nearly nine years ago.

Wright told us that the chapel, which can seat about 100 people, hosts services throughout the week for Pentagon employees of various faiths including Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Episcopalians, Hindus and Muslims. Wright said that the chapel’s schedule for the week of August 16 actually includes daily mass for Catholics; Bible study sessions for Protestants, Jews and members of the Church of Latter Day Saints; as well as a prayer service for Muslims.

The chapel is run by the Office of the Pentagon Chaplain, and prior to its construction, all religious services were reportedly held in either conference rooms, auditoriums or informal prayer rooms inside the Pentagon

[PaulS]

Thanks for the correction - the newspaper I saw it in said "Mosque".

[The Dad Fisherman]

My point isn't that there are no such thing as Muslim Terrorists.

A statement was made that ALL terrorists are Muslim.....I simply wanted to point out that that is just not true. That was the extent of my point....nothing more, nothing less.

If the statement was made that the majority of terrorists are Muslim I wouldn't have said a word....because that, in this day and age, IS true.

I also have no issue with your post because, Sadly, I would give the Muslim guys a second look....I wouldn't be proud of the fact....but I would still do it.

Now in your same Scenario, what if it turned out that the 5 guys in Military garb (you really don't know that they are Army Soldiers) ended up blowing up something......but you didn't notice the signs or keep an eye on them because you were to busy keeping your eye on the Muslim guys.

Now if the beer was missing on the flight You'd better believe I would be all over those 5 Irish Guys....Bastards

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Dad - I'll get right to the point since there have been way too many battles on this with RIR, Spence and others on this over the years. Here it is -

If you get on a plane with your kids and there are 5 US army soliders (McVeigh was in the military), 5 Irish speaking guys, 5 Nuns or 5 men in islamic garb - tell me that you would have the same safety concerns regardless of the group? If you say yes, you are dumb.
I cant put it anymore straightforward than that.
I dont worry about sharks when I swim in a lake. My brain has evolved to be able to determine risk based on what I witness and the environment, Its why man is the top of the food chain. Ignoring the overwhelming evidence is counter to evolution.
If you entered the terrorist attack data over the last 50 years into a computer and computed the liklihood of "who" would be most likely to commit a terrorist act the data would be OVERWHELMING that it would be muslim. Facts are facts.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Since I've been labaled a member of the KKK, and your insane, how about we let the firemen and policemen decide where it should go???

Come to think of it...they better build it flame proof because response time may be a little slow. They are short a few of their finest since the towers were destroyed.

So I assume you believe that no first responders were Muslim, or that no Muslims were killed in the attack?

You were wrong about the trial in NY and you will be wrong about this.

That was an opinion, here we're talking about the law.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

He flip flopped.




flip-flop


noun (plural flip-flops)

Definition:

1. dress backless sandal: a backless foam-rubber sandal with a V-shaped strap secured between the toes and at the sides of the foot ( informal )


2. North America change of mind: a change of opinion, especially by a politician ( informal )

So you're saying he was wearing flip flops?

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

So you're saying he was wearing flip flops?

-spence

only if they were made by Bruno Magli

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

So I assume you believe that no first responders were Muslim, or that no Muslims were killed in the attack?


-spence

you are aware that there are a lot of Muslims opposed to the building of this mosque and recognize that is is not only a bad idea but more likely an intentional provocation? .......but radical islam and the left in America seem to be in complete agreement

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

So I assume you believe that no first responders were Muslim, or that no Muslims were killed in the attack?


-spence

Why would you assume that?
We both can agree that Islamic radicals have no problem killing Muslims.

[buckman]

[FishermanTim]

Now that Nancy Pelosi has stuck her pig-nose into this subject (Pelosi wants to investigate mosque foes), can we all agree that the subject has now "jumped the shark"?
When we have people that are completely unqualified to think, let alone talk in the media about a subject then we truly are lost as a civilized country.
Who will chime in next?
Maybe Jerry Springer has a comment?
Or Oprah?
Or maybe some celebrity pundit will spew forth pearls of wisdom about a topic they know nothing about?

There, now I'm done.

Let the mosque-fest continue.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

no - MOST (not some Spence, polls say MOST) believe it is insensitive to the families of the deceased to erect a muslim center close to ground zzero because the murder of these people was committed in the name of __________ by people the people who are in the ____________ religion.
There is no "simply". It is understandable.

Once again, I think polling on this subject is highly suspect. Not that it doesn't reflect what people are thinking, but what exactly are they thinking?

I'd wager most people have formed opinions based on the controversy rather than the real story. When you have pundits attacking the "9/11 MEGA MOSQUE" and that they "ALWAYS BUILD MOSQUES ON THE SITE OF GREAT VICTORIES" you're going to build a jaded public opinion.

From what I gather the Imam leading the effort is pretty mainstream and the intent is to build a community center, not a Mosque.

So take the polls for what they are, but remember, nine years ago a majority of Americans believed Saddam was behind 9/11.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

So take the polls for what they are, but remember, nine years ago a majority of Americans believed Saddam was behind 9/11.

-spence

They did????

[Joe]

From a moral perspective, it's not a good idea to build the mosque.
But I think it's a good political decision to support the building of the mosque. Figure some militia group in Idaho is already stock piling diesel and nitrogen-based fertilizer - the mosque won't last long. This way he can support the mosque and memorialize it too.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

They did????

Yes, they did...

USATODAY.com - Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, they did...

USATODAY.com - Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

-spence

But wait. Isn't that why we invaded Iraq?
Holy sheet were we lied to?

Baaah
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Bronko]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, they did...

USATODAY.com - Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

-spence

I don't see art. I see your son's crap.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, they did...

USATODAY.com - Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

-spence

"Link"....given the reports about Salman Pak at the time, Saddam's history of supporting terrorism and unceasing bad behavior, and probably thanks to the constant villification of Saddam including comparisons to Hitler by the Clinton administration and top democrats and the lib media all through the 90's, Americans thought it quite possible that there was some link...

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, they did...

USATODAY.com - Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

-spence

A man much smarter then I once said...

"I think polling on this subject is highly suspect. Not that it doesn't reflect what people are thinking, but what exactly are they thinking?"

Wild guess, you were in the other 30% column, right?