Westfield Gun Accident??!!!

[bassackward]

Originally Posted by BigFish

They should charge the Father as well if they are going to charge the others...he was equally responsible if not more so! Just for the absolute stupidity of letting his son fire that type of weapon! I do not believe anything will come of these charges...it will wind up being thrown out! If the Father even thinks of filing a civil suit against either the gun club or the town/police dept..........he has big balls as he was equally culpable in this unfortunate accident!

Larry, I agree with you 100%. If anyone should be charged, it's him. As a father of a 7 and 5 year old, it's the parents job to protect their kids and not put them in situations that have undue risk.

[The Dad Fisherman]

If the dad brought the kid out to the backyard and handed him an uzi.....thats irresponsible.

The Dad took his kid to a gun Show, Sponsored by a company that is owned by the sheriff and run by an organization that is supposed to be well versed in Gun safety and, one would assume, common sense. Claiming they had certified instructors at all areas, and then assured you that everything is well supervised and in a controlled environment .....I wouldn't call that irresponsible. What happened was tragic but I really don't think the Dad is to blame.

I don't think the sheriff is to blame either just because he sponsored it.

Now the Gun Club that ran it....and the fact that they had a 15 year old kid running the area.....they deserve everything they get.

[BigFish]

Kevin...gotta say I think you are dead wrong! As said its a Fathers job to be responsible and I don't care what the reason.......to let your 8 year old son handle such a weapon is insanity!!! I know he is always going to suffer from what has happened.....my point is he was equally responsible as the others. If I even sniff a civil suit coming from the Father.....well......lets just say I will have an unkind word to say about it...or two!

That said....now with manslaughter charges against the Police Chief.....is he still working???? Shouldn't he be suspended with pay pending the outcome???

Don't know where you got the idea a 15 year old was "running the area"??? I do not think that was the case as an adult was next to the youth supervising!

[The Dad Fisherman]

The thing I'm saying larry is he was trying to be responsible.....but it turned tragic.

I don't think he should sue either...but thats a different issue.

it was on the news last night that the person that supervised the boy at the demo area was 15.....he may not have been running it per se, but he is the one that put the gun in the kids hand and assisted him.

[BigFish]

I think you have the story wrong Kevin. From the get go it was reported that it was an adult standing with the child and his Father. A gun club would certainly not allow a 15 year old who is not licensed or of age to handle the weapon hand the weapon to an 8 year old. I am 100% positive that was not the case. There was alot of stupidity going around there that day...but not that much!

If it was on the tv news I would like to know what channel reported it?

[The Dad Fisherman]

This is from the wbz website...

"His father was 10 feet behind him and reaching for his camera when the child fired the weapon. Though the show promised supervision from a certified instructor, Christopher was being helped by a 15-year-old boy at the time, District Attorney William Bennett said Thursday."

http://wbz.com/Police-chief--gun-clu...-death/3433744

[BigFish]

Thats the first time I have seen/heard mention of the case of the 15 year old??? If that is in fact the case....all bets are off! Also if that is the case the Father is doubly stupid as are the entire field of morons who were running the show!!! I have seen no other reports that this was the case?? I would have no problem with a civil suit if this is in case the fact! Man it just gets dumber by the day here on planet earth!!

[BigFish]

All previous news reports indicate the gun was prepared by and handed to the boy by an instructor...no mention of a 15 year old until yesterday??

[The Dad Fisherman]

Did the Dad know the kid was 15? Seriously, sometimes you can't tell. I have a scout in my son's troop that is 15....and 6' 2".....Like I said I think the Dad really did think he was doing this responsibly.

Lots of times in scouts we take kids rock climbing, winter campouts in sub-freezing temperatures, Canoe trips....all things that can go tragic....parents trust us to take care of there kids and assume we know what we are doing, and we do a great job of making sure that we do.......If a kid falls and tragically dies, or drowns on a canoe trip....does that make the parent a bad parent, he trusted us to take care of his kids because we said we would.

hell just last year we had a kid shatter his elbow while doing a quarter mile run for his tenderfoot requirement.....fell while running....found the only patch of ice for miles in the parking lot....Is that the parents fault for dropping his kid off with us.

After the fact it looks like the father was stupid....but before this happened he was just looking to spend a day with his kid w/ people he trusted that they knew what they were doing....and they didn't.

[BigFish]

Come on Kevin....letting your kid go for a run for his merit badge and letting your kid handle an AUTOMATIC WEAPON are 2 entirley different things! Accidents can and do happen....thats part of life....but to put a weapon like that in the hands of an 8 year old, or any type of gun at that age is just insane and trgically stupid as in this case! This tragedy just bothers me to the core.....this child should be at home enjoying these holidays with his family and sadly he is not........and for his family I just feel truly horrible.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Larry, I agree with everything you just said....I just don't believe its the father's fault. he looked to "experts" for Guidance and they let him down. This tragedy bothers me too.....but to want to put the father in jail after what he just went through is just wrong IMHO....that's all.

And I know they are 2 different things I was just taking it to an extreme to make a point...thats all

[BigFish]

"Bungy Jump Off The Sagamore Bridge"
All ages welcome....kids free!"

Now if you saw this and had an 8 year old kid......would you let him do it or would you say to yourself......"Nope! Thats too dangerous!"

[The Dad Fisherman]

Now who's taking things to extremes......Of Course not......

But if you were at a fair and they offered Bungy Jumping, like they do, from a crane and you saw people go before you and were safe and then your son says Dad, I want to try it. So you walk over to the guy and ask all the pertinent questions.....Is it safe, How long have you been doing it, has my wife come back yet....and everything looks good.

Then your son goes for it, bungee snaps, tragedy strikes.....should you go to jail?

[FishermanTim]

The father is guilty, guilty of using bad judgement and he will suffer from that worse than any legal verdict could do.
My problem with this incident is that although the parent TRUSTED the "instructor" at the gun show, why did he feel the need to have his child fire a gun? I wouldn't want my neices or nephews to handle a BB gun, let alone a real firearm. I don't care if the child is "mature for his age" or "big for his age", it's just that you don't know how that child will react to a high powered gun (meaning higher than a cap gun or a nerf gun) than they've ever had before.
That would be the equivilant to expecting someone that shoots a .22 rifle to automatically be able to handle a shotgun or elephant gun, or even a .357 magnum.
Although there are a number of guilty persons involved in this accident, their level of "guilt" will be decided in court, and hopefully their relative punishments will be just.
Of course we're talking Massachusetts here, so who knows what will happen. They could get life, or a slap on the wrist.

[The Dad Fisherman]

If a kid comes across a gun....wouldn't you want them to be familiar with it, know what a safety is, know proper handling, know enough to respect what they have in their hands.

or would you rather have them find one, know nothing about it and let childhood curiosity take over.....

[BigFish]

I would not want them to handle a gun if found at all! I would want them to call the police. And.....no I would not let my kids do several things......fire a gun, get a tattoo, get a piercing, bungy jump, ride a motorcycle, parachute from a plane......these are all things that I as a parent have presence of mind NOT to let them do or try until they are of an age to make that decision for themselves! (That is age 18 in my house) My oldest has been nagging me for a paint ball gun for about 5 years now and I keep saying no because A. I don't see the need......and B. That can only end badly with paint splotches all over my shop/yard or someone losing an eye. How is that for complete? Kids need more supervision today folks and its up to us to do it.....I for one do!

Question Kevin: Do they have such a thing as a firearms merit badge in the scouts??? Are there age/license requirements if so??

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Question Kevin: Do they have such a thing as a firearms merit badge in the scouts??? Are there age/license requirements if so??

There is a Rifle Shooting Merit Badge, which my son has, and a Shotgun Shooting Merit Badge. They also have an Archery Merit Badge

Here are the requirements for each......the age requirements for each are 11, which is how old you need to be a Boy Scout. most counselors for the shotgun badge will majke sure the Scout has a little bulk before they will let him do it.

I will also say that when my son did his he did so at a gun club w/ certified instructors and that one whole (8 hr)day was devoted to nothing but safety before they even touched a rifle.

Rifle Shooting Merit Badge

Do the following:
Explain why BB and pellet air guns must always be treated with the same respect as firearms.
Describe how you would react if a friend visiting your home asked to see your or your family's firearm(s).
Explain the need for, and use and types of, eye and hearing protection.
Give the main points of the laws for owning and using guns in your community and state.
Explain how hunting is related to the wise use of renewable wildlife resources.
Obtain a copy of the hunting laws for your state. Explain the main points of hunting laws in your state and give any special laws on the use of guns or ammunition.
Identify and explain how you can join or be a part of shooting sports activities.
Explain to your counselor the proper hygienic guidelines used in shooting.
Give to your counselor a list of sources that you could contact for information on firearms and their use.

Do ONE of the following options:

OPTION A --- RIFLE SHOOTING (Modern Cartridge Type)
Identify the three main parts of a rifle, and tell how they function.
Identify and demonstrate the three fundamental rules for safe gun handling.
Identify the two types of cartridges, their parts, and how they function.
Explain to your counselor what a misfire, hangfire, and squib fire are, and explain the procedures to follow in response to each.
Identify and demonstrate the five fundamentals of shooting a rifle safely.
Identify and explain each rule for safe shooting.
Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a rifle from the bench rest position or supported prone position while using the five fundamentals of rifle shooting.
Identify the basic safety rules for cleaning a rifle, and identify the materials needed
Demonstrate how to clean a rifle properly and safely.
Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a rifle
Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter. Using these targets, explain how to adjust sights to zero.
Adjust sights to center the group on the target and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score:
A-32 targets - 9
A-17 or TQ-1 targets - 7,
A-36 targets - 5.
Note: It is not always practical to adjust the sights (i.e. when using a borrowed fixed-sight rifle). For requirement 2l, you may demonstrate your ability to use the shooting fundamentals by shooting five shot groups (five shots per group) in which all shots can be covered by or touch a quarter and then explain how to adjust the sights to zero the rifle.

OPTION B --- AIR RIFLE SHOOTING (BB or Pellet)
Identify the three main parts of an air rifle, and tell how they function.
Identify and demonstrate the three fundamental rules for handling a rifle safely.
Identify the two most common types of air rifle ammunition.
Identify and demonstrate the five fundamentals of shooting a rifle.
Identify and explain each rule for shooting an air rifle safely.
Demonstrate the knowledge, skills and attitude necessary to safely shoot a target from the bench rest position or supported prone position while using the five fundamentals of rifle shooting.
Identify the basic safety rules for cleaning an air rifle, and identify the materials needed.
Demonstrate how to clean an air rifle safely.
Discuss what points you would consider in selecting an air rifle.
Using a BB gun or pellet air rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 15 feet for BB guns or 33 feet for air rifles, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.
Adjust sights to center the group on the target and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score:
BB rifle at 15 feet or 5 meters using TQ - 5 targets - 8.
Pellet air rifle at 25 feet using TQ - 5 target - 8, at 33 feet or 10 meters using AR-1 targets - 6.

OPTION C --- MUZZLE - LOADING RIFLE SHOOTING
Discuss a brief history of the development of muzzle-loading rifles.
Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock rifles and discuss how they function.
Demonstrate and discuss the safe handling rules of muzzle-loading rifles.
Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use.
Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
Discuss proper components of a load.
Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzle-loading rifle.
Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzle-loading rifle on a range, including range procedures.
Shoot a target with a muzzle-loading rifle using the five fundamentals of firing the shot.
Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzle- loading rifle safely. Using these materials, demonstrate how to clean a muzzle-loading rifle safely.
Identify the causes of a muzzle-loading rifle's failing to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzle-loading rifle.
Using a muzzle-loading rifle of any caliber and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft soft drink can.
Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score:
at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard targets - 7;
at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100 yard targets - 7.


Shotgun Shooting Merit Badge

Do the following:
Explain why BB and pellet air guns must always be treated with the same respect as firearms.
Describe how you would react if a friend visiting your home asked to see your or your family's firearm(s).
Explain the need for and use and types of eye and hearing protection.
Explain the main points of the laws for owning and using guns in your community and state.
Explain how hunting is related to the wise use of renewable wildlife resources.
Successfully complete a state hunter education course, or obtain a copy of the hunting laws for your state, then do the following:
Explain the main points of hunting laws in your state and give any special laws on the use of guns and ammunition, and
List the kinds of wildlife that can be legally hunted in your state.
Explain to your counselor the proper hygienic guidelines used in shooting.
Identify and explain three shotgun sports. Identify places in your community where you could shoot these sports and explain how you can join or be a part of shooting sports activities.
Give your counselor a list of sources that you could contact for information on firearms and their use.
Do ONE of the following options:

OPTION A --- SHOTGUN SHOOTING (MODERN SHOTSHELL TYPE)

Identify the principal parts of a shotgun, action types, and how they function.
Identify and demonstrate the rules for safely handling a shotgun.
Demonstrate how to handle shotguns in a safe manner.
Identify the parts of a shotgun shell and their functions.
Identify the various gauges of shotguns. Explain which one you would pick for use and why.
Explain what a misfire, hangfire, and squib fire are, and explain the procedures to follow in response to each.
Identify and demonstrate the fundamentals of safely shooting a shotgun.
Identify and explain each rule for shooting a shotgun safely.
Demonstrate the knowledge, skill and attitude necessary to safely shoot moving targets, using the fundamentals of shotgun shooting.
Identify the materials needed to clean a shotgun.
Demonstrate how to clean a shotgun safely.
Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a shotgun.
Shooting score required. - Hit at least 24 (48 percent) out of 50 targets (two 25 target rounds). The two rounds do not need to be shot in consecutive order.
Shooting skill rules:

Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field. Note: if using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least 5 feet to the right and 3 feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed.
All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction.
Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap.
Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice.
Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 12 gauge may be used.
Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used.
Any ammunition, either factory or hand loaded, may be used.
Shooters must shoot in rounds of 25. Rounds need not be shot continuously or on the same day (the term "round" refers to a single series of 25 shots).
If using a trap field, shoot station 3 with traps set to throw straightaway targets.
If using a skeet field, shoot station 7 low house.

OPTION B --- MUZZLE-LOADING SHOTGUN SHOOTING

Discuss a brief history of the development of the muzzle-loading shotgun.
Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock shotguns and discuss how they function.
Demonstrate and discuss safe handling rules of a muzzle-loading shotgun.
Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use.
Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
Discuss proper components of a load.
Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzle-loading shotgun.
Demonstrate knowledge, skill, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzle-loading shotgun on a range, including range procedures.
Shoot a moving target with a muzzle-loading shotgun using the five fundamentals of firing the shot.
Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun properly and safely.
Demonstrate how to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun safely.
Identify the causes of a muzzle-loading shotgun's failing to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzle-loading shotgun.
Shooting score required. -- Hit at least 5 out of 15 targets. The two groups need not be shot in consecutive order.
Shooting skill rules:

Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field. Note: if using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least 5 feet to the right and 3 feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed.
All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction.
Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap.
Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice.
Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 10 gauge may be used.
Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used.
On a standard trap field, the shooter should be positioned 8 yards behind the trap house. The trap should be set to throw only straightaway targets
If using a skeet field, shoot station 7 low house.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by BigFish

I would not want them to handle a gun if found at all! I would want them to call the police.

Which is one of the 1st things that they are taught as part of the program.

[bassackward]

The issue with the 15 year old is troubling. That should have made the father think a little harder. Granted, the 15 year old may have looked older, but still, it should have at least warranted a couple of more questions from the Dad. Why didn't the dad shoot the gun 1st or wait to see others use it? Did he? Was his kid the 1st to shoot this light weight UZI?
At least with the bungee jumping example, you usually see others doing it, and that makes you less apprehensive.
I wouldn't expect any jail time for Dad, once all was said and done, but he's the most responsible and had the most to lose. As a parent, the risk/reward issue needs to always be in the forefront.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Other kids had already shot it....thats why there are 4 counts of furnishing a machine gun to a minor. they know of at least 3 other kids that shot it.

Like I said....A show sponsored by the sheriff, run by supposed "Certified" instructors, at a location that is a licensed gun club and supposed to be a safe place to shoot. I think he was being responsible....in hind sight, of course it looks irresponsible, but up to the moment of the tragedy he felt there was nothing wrong.

Do you really think the father deserves to be prosecuted and go to prison?

[The Dad Fisherman]

By the Way....did I ever mention to you guys that I'm a Stubborn Bastard..

[BigFish]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Other kids had already shot it....thats why there are 4 counts of furnishing a machine gun to a minor. they know of at least 3 other kids that shot it.

Like I said....A show sponsored by the sheriff, run by supposed "Certified" instructors, at a location that is a licensed gun club and supposed to be a safe place to shoot. I think he was being responsible....in hind sight, of course it looks irresponsible, but up to the moment of the tragedy he felt there was nothing wrong.

Do you really think the father deserves to be prosecuted and go to prison?

No certainly not. He has suffered a great loss and will have to deal with it for the rest of his life. Terrible thing. However I think there was enough blame to go around....no one individual will see any jail time here. Fines maybe but no guilt. It was an unfortunate accident.

[BigFish]

I may have a little stubborn streak in me....maybe!

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by BigFish

It was an unfortunate accident.

it's a shame, it could have been prevented easily

Am I missing something here? Firing the fully auto machine guns is illegal by a minor? is that a law that was broken?
How can they have a gun show or whatever this was and allow the law to be broken? bad move

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

Am I missing something here? Firing the fully auto machine guns is illegal by a minor? is that a law that was broken?
How can they have a gun show or whatever this was and allow the law to be broken? bad move

Thats what 2 of the guys are being charged with, furnishing a machine gun to a minor, so I assume it is a law that they broke. I'd like to think they didn't make it up...though this is mass.

[TheSpecialist]

Machinegun has nothing to do with the law.

I believe the law states minor in possesion of a gun needs to be under the direct supervision of a duly liscensed adult.

They are probably being charged with allowing the 15yo (non liscensed , non adult) supervise the 8yo

The whole thing stinks.

I will say this, I was shooting skeet, my fathers .45, and .357mag by the time I was 9 or 10, supervised by my father at all times.

[TheSpecialist]

I found this, but some of it seems to be contradictory


Chapter 140: Section 130. Sale or furnishing weapons or ammunition to aliens or minors; penalty; exceptions

Section 130. Whoever sells or furnishes a rifle, shotgun or ammunition to any alien eighteen years of age or older who does not hold a permit card issued to him under section one hundred and thirty-one H or, except as provided in this section or section one hundred and thirty-one E, whoever sells or furnishes any alien or any person under eighteen years of age a rifle, shotgun, machine gun or ammunition, or whoever sells or furnishes to any person under 21 years of age a firearm or large capacity rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor shall have his license to sell firearms, rifles, shotguns, machine guns and or ammunition revoked and shall not be entitled to apply for such license for ten years from the date of such revocation and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000, or by imprisonment in a state prison for not more than ten years or by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two and one-half years, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Nothing in this section or section one hundred and thirty-one E shall be construed to prohibit a parent or guardian from allowing his child or ward, who has not attained age fifteen, the supervised use of a rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor, according to the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, nor from furnishing such child or ward, who has attained age fifteen, with a rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon or ammunition; provided, however, that said child or ward, being fifteen years of age or older, has been issued a valid firearm identification card or alien permit to possess a rifle or shotgun which is in his possession.Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit an instructor from furnishing rifles or shotguns or ammunition therefor to pupils; provided, however, that said instructor has the consent of a parent or guardian of a pupil under the age of eighteen years.

Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit an instructor from furnishing rifles or shotguns or ammunition therefor to pupils; provided, however, that said instructor has the consent of a parent or guardian of a pupil under the age of eighteen years.