Its officially over

[RIJIMMY]

free speech, American ideals, American courage....

This solider risks his life for some other country's freedom and yet cannot do things that this country's foundation is built on? Agree with him or not, since when is it a law you have to respect other people's religion? The article further goes on to say that the solider will eb sent to court. Another sad day in American history. Anyone have balls anymore?



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - President George W. Bush has apologized to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and promised prosecution of a U.S. soldier accused of using a copy of the Koran for target practice, Iraq said on Tuesday.


Bush apologized in a telephone call on Monday with Maliki, who told him the incident had humiliated and angered Iraq's largely Muslim population, the cabinet said in a statement.

"The American president apologized on behalf of the United States ... promising to present the soldier to the courts," it said.

A U.S. embassy spokeswoman said that in the call Bush expressed his deep concern over the "completely unacceptable conduct of an American soldier."

[JohnR]

That was a pretty stupid thing for the soldier to do. The operating mantra over there is to show that we are the good guys and the AQ/Extremist are the bad guys. Shooting a Quran doesn't go a long way in winning the "Hearts & Minds" of the local population. Our guys are in as much of a perception struggle with those people as they are a military struggle.

Our troops need to show that it is the A$$wipes sending off 10 year old kids and the mentally disabled as suicide bombers (since they are running a little low on people that want to upgrade to 72 Virgins) that are the problems, and not the American Soldier, who has generally performed brilliantly over there.

That wasn't "Free Speech", that was dumb decision that indirectly could get his buddies killed.

[RIJIMMY]

so we should pander to other people's beliefs? We should not do things because we fear reprisal?
How do you "bring democracy" to a country like that?
How do roadside bombs killing this country's men and women win the "hearts and minds" of Americans?

I submit that all people in the US should stop wearing crucifixes. They are offensive to some, do you know how many jews and muslims were slaughterd in the middle ages at the sign of the cross? How about that Inquisition? Lets not offend anyone, no more crucifixes!

[Fishpart]

Not destroying what someone elses religous symbols is the American Ideal and a display of American Courage. As a soldier you are responsible to live to a higher standard, that is why there are Rules of Engagement and a Code of Conduct.

Try being a Leader that must maintain Good Order and Discipline with all the $hit going on.

[Bronko]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

free speech, American ideals, American courage....

This solider risks his life for some other country's freedom and yet cannot do things that this country's foundation is built on? Agree with him or not, since when is it a law you have to respect other people's religion? The article further goes on to say that the solider will eb sent to court. Another sad day in American history. Anyone have balls anymore?



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - President George W. Bush has apologized to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and promised prosecution of a U.S. soldier accused of using a copy of the Koran for target practice, Iraq said on Tuesday.


Bush apologized in a telephone call on Monday with Maliki, who told him the incident had humiliated and angered Iraq's largely Muslim population, the cabinet said in a statement.

"The American president apologized on behalf of the United States ... promising to present the soldier to the courts," it said.

A U.S. embassy spokeswoman said that in the call Bush expressed his deep concern over the "completely unacceptable conduct of an American soldier."

RIJIMMY, even I think this soldier was an idiot. It would be one thing if it was the Taliban Handbook or something, but the Koran is the divine scripture of millions and millions of good people as well. I know you and I alike would have blown a gasket if a bunch of Muslims were using the Bible for target practice.

[RIROCKHOUND]

When I saw the title,
I thought you were going to say Hillary finally gave up...

[RIJIMMY]

Bronko, no I wouldnt. I'm not religious, but I watch South Park where Jesus is a regular character and religion is frequently ridiculed. Jesus is worshiped by millions, should we ban South Park?
Where do you draw the line with offending people??????????

[EarnedStripes44]

With respect to the "hearts and minds" position of John, I believe he hit it right on the head. Free speech is one thing, but in the military, you follow protocoal.

[RIJIMMY]

Lets get really wacky today...

Atilla the Hun, burned and massacared every tribe he came across, as a result Asia prospered and peace settled over the region, commerce grew and leaps were made in trade and knowledge sharing.

Rome conquered every country it wanted, forced all their customs and currency on the populace. As a result, peace, trade, technology, arts, literacy all flourished across the lands.

I'm missing history's success stories of militaries winning the "hearts and minds" of people?

[striperman36]

We all should stop fishing, because according to some people, it causes the fish great pain and offends those people that we would be so cruel to other inhabitors of this great world.

[JohnR]

Western culture has supposedly advanced a little from the wholesale raping and pillaging of what happened to those other (long gone) civilizations. Turning countries into glass parking lots is also not an acceptable option.

If you look where we have had the successes in Iraq and and where were the issues, the more successful times have come with a balanced application of necessary firepower and "Hearts & Minds". Take, Hold, & Build. Kill 'em all and let God sort them out hasn't worked. That is a reactionary practice that never works anymore - unless you are a dictator in the Third World. Or Sadam.

I don't think there is a need to go into how much was wrong at the start when they simply did not have enough troops to begin with and most of these problems might have been reduced or never really happened, not to mention the clusterbleep of the "CPA". But taking in context of what is happening now, what IS working is based on Heart & Minds, Respect, & Force.

When people that know what they are talking about like Col McMaster (now BG designate) and Gen Petraeus say that the way forward in Iraq (certainly at least the key component from the military side) is to win Hearts & Minds, I'm inclined to think they are on the right path and that taking a sniper shot at a Quran for target practice undermines that mission in a completely unneeded and effing stupid way.

[The Dad Fisherman]

So is it wrong to burn the flag? its just somebody excersising their Freedom of Speech after all.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

So is it wrong to burn the flag? its just somebody excersising their Freedom of Speech after all.

agree 100%

[boot man]

Hypothetically speaking, do I have the right to follow someone around and throw rocks where they are throwing plugs or eels? I do. It's only freedom of expression. (not to worry, I would not think of doing anything like this)

But it is not the right thing to do, and my wife would probably apologize for my behavior (I know, it's happened before.)

But there is also something else to consider here, it happened in their country where everyone must follow their laws, not ours, right?

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Lets get really wacky today...

Atilla the Hun, burned and massacared every tribe he came across, as a result Asia prospered and peace settled over the region, commerce grew and leaps were made in trade and knowledge sharing.

Rome conquered every country it wanted, forced all their customs and currency on the populace. As a result, peace, trade, technology, arts, literacy all flourished across the lands.

I'm missing history's success stories of militaries winning the "hearts and minds" of people?

Viet Cong & the NVA

[Fishpart]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

So is it wrong to burn the flag? its just somebody excersising their Freedom of Speech after all.

It's different being part of the Military. You give up your personal Freedom of Speech because it becomes your DUTY to carry the message of the American People. One of the greatest misunderstandings of military service is that you give up some personal rights to defend the rights of others.

[The Dad Fisherman]

I personally don't think it has anything to do with the military or freedom of speech....I think the soldier, as a card carrying member of the human race, was just an A$$ for doing it.

Just like the guy that burns the flag. ( I think anybody that does that is an A$$ too)

doesn't matter what uniform you wear, what religion you follow, or what your favorite color is.......an A-Hole is an A-Hole in any language.

[PaulS]

Your trying to win the hearts and minds of the people. Why would you do this (even if you think you had a right b/c of "free speach")? The other soliders should kick his butt for pissing off a people who think nothing of blowing themselves up to kill a US solider.

If a US solider's dies b/c a bomber blows himself up b/c of this, the solider shoudl be blamed.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

Viet Cong & the NVA

And Vietnam is now a prospering country, only proves my point.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

And Vietnam is now a prospering country, only proves my point.

What does this have to do with the fact that the Viet Congs hearts and minds campaign undermined US military policy efforts in that region during that time. It is a requisite ingredient in any successful insurgency/ guerrilla war.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

It is a requisite ingredient in any successful insurgency/ guerrilla war.

As well as any successful Counter Insurgency

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

What does this have to do with the fact that the Viet Congs hearts and minds campaign undermined US military policy efforts in that region during that time. It is a requisite ingredient in any successful insurgency/ guerrilla war.

I was referencing their brutal tactics which ultimately won. You think they won the hearts and minds of the people? I think they butchered them into submission.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I was referencing their brutal tactics which ultimately won. You think they won the hearts and minds of the people? I think they butchered them into submission.

Much butchering did indeed occur, on both sides by all parties. However, the VC were able and did attack the US embassy long before Saigon fell. You think they did that because of a butchered civilian population. No, because they could attack anywhere in the country with impunity through a highly organized subterrenean subversion. Subversion only possible with the cooperation of a large number of South Vietnamese communist sympathizers and nationalist.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

Not destroying what someone elses religous symbols is the American Ideal and a display of American Courage. As a soldier you are responsible to live to a higher standard, that is why there are Rules of Engagement and a Code of Conduct.

Try being a Leader that must maintain Good Order and Discipline with all the $hit going on.

I agree and we are held to a higher standard. That's what sets us apart. He should be punished. What he did was stupid and I am sure his unit feels the same way. Most of those guys have worked hard and put their lives on the line to build unity with the Muslum world.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by buckman

I agree and we are held to a higher standard. That's what sets us apart. He should be punished. What he did was stupid and I am sure his unit feels the same way. Most of those guys have worked hard and put their lives on the line to build unity with the Muslum world.

Considering to get things done over there they need terps and whatnot, yeah, they need to fix that otherwise they'll find themselves unable to get ANYTHING done.