I Pose This Question To You!

[BigFish]

I hear on the radio and TV and read in the newspaper about people being critical of how the tragedy in Virginia was handled and what could authorities have done differently to prevent it?!?!?!? Why were they not prepared? Why were they not ready? Why didn't they do this? Why didn't they do that?

Is there anyplace in this country that you think is so prepared that this same kind of thing could not happen?

I can pretty much guarantee you that if I was so inclined to do the same thing that psycho did yesterday, that there would be pretty much nothing anyone could do to prevent it! Stop it eventually maybe but not prevent it! Do you walk down the street on edge expecting a gunman to come out of nowhere and start shooting anyone that moves? This type pf thing can and has happened just about anyplace......high schools, colleges, elementary schools, McDonalds, the work place, Luby's in Texas, shopping malls!!!!

How do you expect anyplace or anyone to be prepared for such a tragic event???

[fishpoopoo]

live press conference on msnbc right now...

[The Dad Fisherman]

Human Nature is that you need to find somebody to blame.

Personally, the only one I think you can blame is the guy with the guns.

[stripersnipr]

My Left coast brother has decided that this tragedy is a direct result of a "Bush culture". I told him that blaming Bush makes him as deranged as the shooter. The blogosphere is on fire with those who use every opportunity and tragedy to further their political agenda's no matter how twisted they may be.

[Slick Moedee]

Media is on a witch hunt to blame someone. That tone resonates from every report I have watched/read so far. There is no way you can prevent these types of catastrophes from occurring until their underlying causes are dealt with. What those causes are I'm not quite sure, but having emergency plans and heightened security are only so effective and primarily reactive.

[fishpoopoo]

the shooter is dead.

so there's nothing left for the public (politicians) to blame ... except for an inanimate object.

larry i have to agree with you in some respect - sudden violence like this catches people unprepared. and this thing started at 7:15 in the morning (like pearl harbor). shooter caught people when most vulnerable. so, you're not expecting to be shot at as soon as you get out of bed.

but ... there were two bomb threats called in before this shooting. i know, bomb threats are a dime a dozen but one after the other? at the very least the campus police should have been on a more diligent alert posture.

the thing that still bothers me (other than lawful CCW'ers were disarmed on campus) is the two hour lag between the first shooting, which killed 2 people, and the second shooting in which 33 others were killed (and just as many wounded). the same guy likely did both sets of shootings. what gives?

there is going to be an ugly lawsuit against VT ... i gawruntee it.

[striprman]

seems like I've read about this type of thing(although not to this extent) happening at the post office..still no guards there the last time I went.

[fishpoopoo]

okay, so we have a timeline, sort of.

7:15 a.m. First shootings happen. Two people killed, one of whom is a female.

An "Asian" man who is an acquaintance of the female victim is apprehended and taken in for questioning. Cops think they have their shooter.

Class not canceled.

While the suspect is undergoing questioning, second and more deadly round of shootings start.

I really wonder what happened between Point A and Point B.

What were the cops and the University thinking?

[BigFish]

Everyone is so quick to judge the decisions made by authorities who were there and who had knowledge and who had to make the difficult decisions and those who are being critical......know nothing!!!! You think you know all there is to know based on news reports????? Jeeeeez.......everyone is so quick to talk about how things SHOULD have been done......hindsight is 20/20! Cut these folks a break for doing a difficult job.....I saw fear and confusion in their eyes on the news clips.....and I can't blame them! The killer is dead and still the witch hunt goes on!!!

[kevin d]

I could walk into any public place with a 9mm and a bunch of magazines and shoot a ton of people before anyone would have any idea how to stop me. I guarantee that the authorities and students alike had no idea that they were dealing with a mass murderer. I think the police response time was pretty damned good. The only place to point a finger is at the gunman.

[fishpoopoo]

Originally Posted by kevin d

I could walk into any public place with a 9mm and a bunch of magazines and shoot a ton of people before anyone would have any idea how to stop me. I guarantee that the authorities and students alike had no idea that they were dealing with a mass murderer. I think the police response time was pretty damned good. The only place to point a finger is at the gunman.

1. personally, i'd have a bead drawn on you after the hypothetical first shot.

2. post-columbine, the new LEO response to any gunman-on-campus is to take out the shooter asap (assume the shooter is out to inflict maximum casualties). i guess local LEO didn't have a clue on this, since they assumed the shooter left the scene.

[fishpoopoo]

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20020917a.html

Student Group Wants Campus Gun Ban Lifted
By Christine Hall
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 17, 2002

(CNSNews.com) - After two armed southwest Virginia law students stopped a campus shooting rampage in January, a Second Amendment group at a northern Virginia law school decided it was time to change their own school's ban on guns.

"We are trying to build a detailed and persuasive brief that would include statistics on increases in safety, decreases in violent crime when you do have concealed carry permit holders in a jurisdiction," said Orest J. Jowyk, president of the Second Amendment group at George Mason University School of Law.

"I think the middle ground is to allow concealed handgun permit holders to carry just like they can anywhere else in Virginia," he said. "You provide extra safety to the student body that way."

Jowyk began researching his law school's gun policy following the January incident in which a disgruntled student at Appalachian Law School, Peter Odighizuwa, allegedly shot and killed the school's dean, a professor and a student on campus before being subdued by two armed students, Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges.

Gross and Bridges reportedly ran to their cars to fetch their own guns and returned to confront Odighizuwa, who surrendered after allegedly initiating a fistfight.

Jowyk was heartened by the students' intervention. But looking into GMU's gun policy, Jowyk found to his dismay that the school's board of visitors had in 1995 passed a ban on all weapons, concealed or otherwise, except by law enforcement officials.

Anyone who violates the school's gun ban would face administrative repercussions but not criminal charges, according to Jowyk.

Then in April, Virginia's Democratic governor, Mark Warner, signed a law prohibiting local governments from using administrative rules to pass gun restrictions that go beyond existing state law.

Jowyk's Second Amendment group is now investigating how that law might apply to GMU, though the group has not yet approached school administrators about changing the policy.

"There is a question that's being bandied about in the Commonwealth whether or not this university qualifies under that law as a locality," said Mike Lynch, chief of police for GMU law school's police department. "Today, I don't think we have the answer."

If that legal question is eventually resolved in the school's favor, Lynch says he will likely recommend that the weapons ban continue.

"The more people that have guns...on them, it is my opinion that that would increase the propensity for somebody getting hurt," either through accident or mischief, said Lynch. "And I don't want to see that."

But the controversy surrounding gun bans on state colleges and universities isn't limited to Virginia.

In January, the Utah legislature launched an inquiry into the University of Utah's 25-year-old gun ban after state Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said state laws on concealed weapons prohibited agencies and schools from banning them from state property.

"We need to have the right to exclude weapons on campus," University of Utah President Bernie Machen testified to legislators, describing the decision as a matter of academic freedom. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," he said. Machen has also argued that the ban fosters a safe learning environment.

On March 6, the Utah Senate passed a GOP-sponsored bill allowing the legislature to cut in half the school's administration budget if the gun ban continues. The university responded two weeks later by initiating a court challenge, asking a U.S. District Court judge to uphold the school's gun ban.

Also in March, Ohio University's 2000 "workforce violence policy" prohibiting any carrying or displaying of weapons became the subject of controversy when a journalism professor was directed to remove a Civil War-era gun he had displayed on his wall for more than a decade. University administrators reportedly are re-evaluating the policy.

"I feel like I've really been fingered as a dangerous person," Patrick Washburn told the University Wire.

[kevin d]

Originally Posted by Bassturbed

1. personally, i'd have a bead drawn on you after the hypothetical first shot.

That is a good thing but apparently 32 people were not willing or able to do just that. I feel for the families.

[FishermanTim]

This should have everyone concerned.
A little over a week and a half ago a kid brings a loaded weapon into school. He claims he "found the gun" on the way to school.
That isn't the only concen I'd have. The other concern is that the school "officers" do not carry any weapons, so that if something like that were to happen in most schools in New England, the best you could hope for is that the school officer would b able to handcuff the shooter after he either is wounded when the real police show up, or when he runs out of ammo.
No offense to the school officers, since they have been pretty much stripped of any means of protection and are thrown into a lion's den with a steak tied around their necks.

Since this thing can and will happen without warning, the emphasis should be placed on response: Take out the shooter ASAP!

What really upsets me is that these types of mental defectives believe they have the right and the power to commit these atrocious crimes, and result to suicide when they are about to be caught.
Why couldn't he just take care of himself instead of ruining all those families?
You can't tell me that someone wasn't even slightly aware that this freak was heading over the edge!

[mosholu]

it would be interested to know what was the status of the bomb threat investigations and whether there is a connection. I was quite surprised yesterday how quick the media (Fox and CNN) had adopted the view that the school officials may be at fault. When there is anything to report they have a tendency to shoot from the hip. I do not think it would have been practical given what they knew at the time to shut the entire campus down. I am really skeptical that there are communication systems whether by email or texting given the time constraints that could have effectively notified the entire campus.
I feel bad for these school officials and the campus police as they must be going through hell.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by mosholu

I do not think it would have been practical given what they knew at the time to shut the entire campus down. I am really skeptical that there are communication systems whether by email or texting given the time constraints that could have effectively notified the entire campus.
I feel bad for these school officials and the campus police as they must be going through hell.

You don't think it would have practical to let everyone know that they had a murder potentially on campus? The campus cops could have closed the buildings and, at least, cut down on the number of people he encountered.

[fishpoopoo]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

It's getting a little confusing..Wouldn't that indicate two different shooters?

it is a little confusing, but the implication here is that ...

THEY DETAINED THE WRONG GUY AND WHILE THEY WERE INTERROGATING HIM THE REAL BAD GUY WAS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE THE CARNAGE!

OOOPS!

[mosholu]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

You don't think it would have practical to let everyone know that they had a murder potentially on campus? The campus cops could have closed the buildings and, at least, cut down on the number of people he encountered.

Part of me agrees with you. Practical was probably the wrong choice of words, effective is what I was going for. In hindsight an hour and a half seems like forever but I am sure for the people on the scene time was moving pretty quickly as they tried to establish who was the suspect and where he might be going.

[Flaptail]

I work in schools. We had a bomb scare last Monday the 9th that shut down the high school and Junior High for the day.

The State Police came with a bomb sniffing dog. We were informed that the dog was only good for 20 minutes or so then would lose interest. Our facility is 326000 sq. feet.

We are mandated by MEMA (MA emergency mgt assoc.) to have a plan on file for all types of crises scenarios. The plan, by practice works but has a lifespan of only an hour before you get the "too many chiefs not enough Indians" complex (Alexander Haig syndrome)

You try your best to plan for the worst, hopefully it won't come but it might and when it does actually happen you have 1000 plus people to get to safety or protect and seconds to react. Inevitably something will miscue.

Our culture drives this madness. TV, Movies, music videos with violence glorified on every front. Guns, there are just too many on the streets. Something has to be done to track them down and keep them from other than law abiding citizens/sportsmen who carry a license and respect the power they posess.

They are just too easy to obtain, the laws have to be stricter so that if you want to own one you must be able to prove your ability to handle, store and transport them.

America has a gun epidemic and it needs to be reigned in, the illegal trade in stolen fire arms and the states with casual attitudes as to thier rules/laws for obtaining them have to be called on the carpet.

Our culture is our problem. Films with scenes of people involved inn sexual acts are taboo but it's okay to watch Kill Bill and Pulp Fiction and think "wow that was really great" when someone gets blown away in a hail of bullets and blood. I don't get it but thats our problem plain and simple.

Lastly, people snap and these things will happen, it's an unfortunate fact of modern life here in America and other modern industrialized nations. Somehow we must regain control so that the continued degrading of values, now so evident in our schools today, will stop or at least slow down.

America is not really that nice a place is it?

[fishpoopoo]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Lastly, people snap and these things will happen, it's an unfortunate fact of modern life here in America and other modern industrialized nations.

sad but true.

in a strange sort of a way, it seems more people are gradually coming to grips with this reality rather than just having a knee-jerk "let's ban all guns" response.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

I work in schools. We had a bomb scare last Monday the 9th that shut down the high school and Junior High for the day.

The State Police came with a bomb sniffing dog. We were informed that the dog was only good for 20 minutes or so then would lose interest. Our facility is 326000 sq. feet.

We are mandated by MEMA (MA emergency mgt assoc.) to have a plan on file for all types of crises scenarios. The plan, by practice works but has a lifespan of only an hour before you get the "too many chiefs not enough Indians" complex (Alexander Haig syndrome)

You try your best to plan for the worst, hopefully it won't come but it might and when it does actually happen you have 1000 plus people to get to safety or protect and seconds to react. Inevitably something will miscue.

Our culture drives this madness. TV, Movies, music videos with violence glorified on every front. Guns, there are just too many on the streets. Something has to be done to track them down and keep them from other than law abiding citizens/sportsmen who carry a license and respect the power they posess.

They are just too easy to obtain, the laws have to be stricter so that if you want to own one you must be able to prove your ability to handle, store and transport them.

America has a gun epidemic and it needs to be reigned in, the illegal trade in stolen fire arms and the states with casual attitudes as to thier rules/laws for obtaining them have to be called on the carpet.

Our culture is our problem. Films with scenes of people involved inn sexual acts are taboo but it's okay to watch Kill Bill and Pulp Fiction and think "wow that was really great" when someone gets blown away in a hail of bullets and blood. I don't get it but thats our problem plain and simple.

Lastly, people snap and these things will happen, it's an unfortunate fact of modern life here in America and other modern industrialized nations. Somehow we must regain control so that the continued degrading of values, now so evident in our schools today, will stop or at least slow down.

America is not really that nice a place is it?

Odd, I have a bunch of guns that never killed anybody, I guess I'm just lucky or bought the good ones? Who the hell are you to tell the people of any other state what their gun laws should be? Did I miss you're being appointed pope?

IMHO the problem with movie violence is that its too sanitized. If they showed what really happens when someone get shot it would bring a lot more reality to the table. How can people get shot and not bleed? It happens in movies all the time.

If it wasn't a gun it would be some dynamite, or C4, or maybe some fertilizer and diesel fuel, does that ring a bell? Blame the person, not the tool. Remember trhe guy in NYC that got pissed off and killed 100+ people with a quart of gasoline, maybe he should have had a gun, then we could have forgiven him?

[Tagger]

hine sight makes everyone so freakin smart ..horrible disgusting tragedy.. I can't imagine sending your kid off to college and this ..,,,society in general is sickning

[Karl F]

Awful Lot coming out about this kid.. if what I heard reported is true.. V.T. gonna have a lot to answer for.

Set fire in a dorm

Stalking two female students

Signed his name as "?"

Wrote papers so horribly graphic, violence wise, Proffessors recommened he seek counseling

Anti-Social, would not speak to people.

I know somebody was paying his tuition for that kid, but, as someone who pays tuition for a kid.. I want another kid like that Dealt With (tossed would work for me!).... this kid was a walking time bomb....
I wll be sending an inquiry as to School Policy on misfits ASAP to my kids school.

And they sold Him.. A gun (or two)....

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Odd, I have a bunch of guns that never killed anybody, I guess I'm just lucky or bought the good ones? Who the hell are you to tell the people of any other state what their gun laws should be? Did I miss you're being appointed pope?

IMHO the problem with movie violence is that its too sanitized. If they showed what really happens when someone get shot it would bring a lot more reality to the table. How can people get shot and not bleed? It happens in movies all the time.

If it wasn't a gun it would be some dynamite, or C4, or maybe some fertilizer and diesel fuel, does that ring a bell? Blame the person, not the tool. Remember trhe guy in NYC that got pissed off and killed 100+ people with a quart of gasoline, maybe he should have had a gun, then we could have forgiven him?

Hey Mike, can you read? Did I say law abiding citizens should not own them? And states like Florida where all you need is a drivers license to buy a gun does indeed need to change the system.

If you read it with a smidge of intelligence you would see I said the same thing, just not as explecit as you. Creeton (spelling?)

You probably voted for Bush didn't ya? Come on admit it, it's easy to see why!

[Flaptail]

Oh yeah Mike, you really need to update your movie collection, too much John Wayne and Ronald Reagan movies I fear.

Oh the horror of living in a shell.

[BigFish]

Flap....when you wear your Papal head dress.....how tall are you???? About 8 1/2......9 feet??

[fishpoopoo]

Flap,

A driver's license is NOT sufficient to get a handgun ANYWHERE in the U.S.

The Brady Law (a federal law) now requires a background check on all gun buyers. A person who walks into a store has to fill out a federal form, and then submit to an instant check through NICS (FBI database). When a background check brings up a red flag (a criminal conviction or sharing a similar name with a convicted felon are common glitches), the purchaser gets DENIED or DELAYED. So there are your federal point-of-sale safeguards. You have to be 18 to buy a rifle or shotgun and you have to be 21 to get a handgun.

And as you know, many states like the Nannywealth of Massachusetts impose additional and much tougher restrictions like additional state permits and background checks.

So your view on the easy availability of handguns, at least through retail establishments, is incorrect.