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Old 02-14-2017, 12:29 PM   #1
Linesider82
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Simple Rod Build Designs

Billy D (PBAdad) built a rod for me a few years back that was simple and elegant, wondering if anyone else here has a build that they love and could share pics in the name of simplicity.

The funny part was I asked Billy to build a rod that was "ugly" so no one wanted to steal it... what I got in return is the my favorite rod design to date and minimal weight. Maybe I should have asked for brown? Anyhow, whatcha got?
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:44 PM   #2
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Actually Matt my 10' Infinity I'm building now is a single plain color wrap , no butt wrap and a rapid choke setup. I'm using the carbon weave outer rod finish as the butt wrap. This rod weight goal is 10oz.

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Old 02-17-2017, 01:26 AM   #3
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IMG_20170216_222413209.jpg

IMG_20170216_222559209.jpg

Here's what I mean by simple, a nice clean butt wrap & no guide under wraps.

If anyone would like to contribute, I'm open ears and eyes.

Last edited by Linesider82; 02-17-2017 at 01:32 AM..
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:17 AM   #4
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By "design" I think you're talking aesthetics. For you that appears to lean towards subtlety. The wrap is nicely done, but not exactly simple. The silver in-lay and very presence of a butt wrap serve to elevate the work beyond that of bare function......albeit the result is a pleasing one. Certainly if you wanted "ugly" Billy D is not the guy to ask for it from.

I'd also suggest that under wraps are not entirely for show. They provide a softer bedding surface for the guide (which arguably is not necessary when guide feet are dressed carefully). I use them, however, in the theory that make it easier to strip and rebuild the rod....which I do a lot. But then I do not epoxy the underwrap before wrapping on the guide (like real builders do) and I could well be wrong on all this.

As for weight considerations, your guide choice has a lot more to do with that then your wrap selection. And this is still evolving. As most people know the old cone of flight layouts used to throw heavy mono (50-70mm collectors dropping stepwise to a 16 tip) are heavy, unnecessary, and don't work well with braid. They were superseded by NGC (new guide concept) layouts using a slightly smaller collector (usually a 40) and dropping stepwise to a "choke point" a few feet in from the tip then running guides covering the distance to the tip. This is the way most surf rods are now built but is also suboptimal.

It turns out that you don't need a 40mm collector guide.....what you actually need is the height it provides. Likewise you do not need a series of slowly diminishing ring sizes spread out over most of a rod's length, rather with the right guide heights you can compress this transition into a much shorter distance (say 1/2 way out rather than 3/4 the way out) which in turn lets you cover more of the distance to the tip with smaller and lighter guides.

So what is now developing is a guide layout that goes by the term "rapid reduction" layout. It starts with a high 25mm collector then drops quickly down through a 16 to an intermediate height 10 then down to small running guides on the outer 1/2 of the rod. You get better line flow, maybe a little better distance, and A LOT better blank performance (i.e., swing weight, reverberation, upper range). Presently the guide options to do this are limited to either economical single foot KL-H and m guides, or very expensive titanium RV guides (that cost $70-98 for just the first guide alone!). Everyone expects, however, that soon Fuji will release cheaper stainless frame versions of the latter. In the meantime, if you want to see what they look and feel like you can go wiggle a St Croix legend which uses them.

So that leaves single foot guides as a design choice. Turns out this is not as stupid for a surf rod as it sounds. Strength wise they fish just fine and don't tend to bend in use (when you put the rod down for example). Their real drawback is in rod transport where they are easy to bend. But if you are careful in transport and want a light rod that performs to the optimum ability of the blank they are worth considering.......I think.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:47 AM   #5
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George my thoughts exactly.

Billy D.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:02 AM   #6
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Linesider,

I have a Billy D. GSB 1201L I'll take a picture of when I'm back at home. I also asked for simple (not ugly)....and it is by far my favorite and most versatile rod I own. Door knob bumper, cork tape, fuji seat, Hardloy SV's, and the wraps are metallic green under, black over the guides with silver accents. Looks very sharp and simply elegant. It's certainly a lot nicer looking than I was expecting. It also whooped some pretty nice fish in some pretty good current for me, which I was pleasantly surprised by, choosing a lower powered blank. The build itself does a great job of retaining as much power as possible on that blank. Call me impressed!

I have it sitting right next to my first attempt at a build on a SMB108 which I picked up from Ed Morini which is a rapid choke (per numbskull's info...should also add that numbskull turned me onto the idea, as well as some others) which is truly ugly for comparison Test casted, it works nicely, but my wrapping ability certainly isn't tuned, but at least it seems to function properly.

The SMB is wrapped with a single blue color now, but I want to add some decorative accent at the bottom of the wrap (probably white), as it is really boring and ugly. The chestnutty orangish blank doesn't make it easy. So it's a work in process. The KR/Rapid Choke really works nicely on this rod.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:46 AM   #7
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yeah, single feet....let the blank bend as it is designed to
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:22 AM   #8
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George, how does the rapid choke layout handle larger diameter lines, such as 30lb. fireline or #65 suffix, the latter of which is what I use and is 0.34mm dia.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:35 AM   #9
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Spin setup I built for jig/pop Bluefin

All thread no ribbons or gimmicks.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:01 PM   #10
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Spin setup I built for jig/pop Bluefin

All thread no ribbons or gimmicks.
beautiful, nice work
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:16 PM   #11
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George, how does the rapid choke layout handle larger diameter lines, such as 30lb. fireline or #65 suffix, the latter of which is what I use and is 0.34mm dia.
I'm not sure. I throw #55 Samurai through a size 20 lowrider collector but to do it the guide is pretty far out the rod. I rebuilt an XRA 1322 for Paul that used KLH 25 collector for a Stella 10000......I'm not sure what braid but probably @55. I was very skeptical about trying it, but when we test cast the rod the line flow was noticeably quieter than with a KW 40 collector NGC setup. Then again there is no better guinea pig than Paul. I think the hope in the state of the art surf rod building community (which is really small) is that Fuji also comes out with a RV30 guide...........or even a KW20m (i.e., higher than a regular KW20) guide that would eliminate the need for the KW 25 and allow the use of regular KW guides for rapid reduction (presently the height drop from 30H to 20 is too acute so you need to throw a 25 in there which just moves all that big stuff further out the rod).
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:59 PM   #12
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Nice to see some of us still like it simple, cork tape with no reel seat is definitely old school but perfect if you plan on using different reels on the same blank. I also still use two larger stainless gathering guides because I go back and forth between using braid and mono. The larger guides are perfect for mono and adequate for braid use. But using mono with those smaller braid gathering guides just doesn't seem to work efficiently for casting.

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Old 02-17-2017, 02:54 PM   #13
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The larger guides are perfect for mono and adequate for braid use. But using mono with those smaller braid gathering guides just doesn't seem to work efficiently for casting.
I can't comment on 20# mono since back in the day the weight of the equipment needed to fish it was so unappealing I put my over rung Lami1321L and 706 to bed, switched to conventional tackle, and never looked back. The rapid reduction idea has, however, been tested by Fuji with mono (actually Fluorocarbon which is even stiffer) and seems to work well. This video shows its effect.

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Old 02-17-2017, 04:07 PM   #14
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I love that rod. Having hung in my cellar for 20 plus years as a conventional and to be brought back to life as a spinner it is awesome.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:54 PM   #15
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added pics as an edit
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:02 PM   #16
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added pics as an edit
Looks to me like you're doing just fine.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:39 PM   #17
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Thanks, functionally, perhaps. It's all I'm worried about at this point. I am amazed at how different a sloppy glass rod can feel wrapped this way. It'll be nice in the spring and during albie season. It'll look like I have a shark on with an albie!!
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Old 02-19-2017, 09:47 AM   #18
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Nice to see some of us still like it simple, cork tape with no reel seat is definitely old school but perfect if you plan on using different reels on the same blank. I also still use two larger stainless gathering guides because I go back and forth between using braid and mono. The larger guides are perfect for mono and adequate for braid use. But using mono with those smaller braid gathering guides just doesn't seem to work efficiently for casting.


Pleased to see that somebody is wrapping up some of those old yellow Lamiglas fiberglass blanks.

This boring winter, I rewrapped two of these antediluvian 1970's blanks: 9.5 and 10.5 ft. spinners, that were in my hands during those years. These fiberglass rods were immediately retired the first time I put my hands on the Lami graphites-- specifically the (one piece) GSB 132 1L and 1M. Each of these blanks have been completely stripped down, and rebuilt 3 or 4 times through the years, to keep up with modern components. I am still using these same graphite blanks today, and they are shown in the pictures.

I often drive my scientific and learned friend, Numbskull, crazy the way I rig (or unrig) my plugs that he gives me; so, why shouldn't I continue to do the same when I set up and wrap my surf rods? Prior to graphite, the varsity rod in my hands was an SB 136 4M. I bought it out of Edgartown Hardware Store around 1974. The builder liked to cut the butt down 12 inches or so, and build 10.5 footers. The original wrap started with a 70 mm. hoop guide, and four more tapering but huge wire guides. I kinda agree with Mr. DZ, in his post: I am too old to move, totally, from my past. So, I rewrapped this old blank with a 50 mm. wire gathering guide, and four SiC guides further out.

I weighed the old guides that I stripped off, and the new components I wrapped on, and the weight savings was over 3/4 oz. That's good progress, IMO, removing 3/4 oz. from the lever arm of a stick. What a nice, soggy, bendy action these old fiberglass blanks have! I might even carry and use this rod, especially when I am working all day in N.B. and want to fish on the way home. Nobody would think of stealing it.

If one makes the irrational and unscientific decision that you want a gathering guide larger than 30 mm., then I suggest that you think about using a wire 40 or 50. Wire, in this size range, just looks cosmetically neater than similar sized ceramic guides, which just look so "clunky". And wire in these larger sizes, is lighter, too.

There was a Vineyard tackle shop in Oak Bluffs, Clayt Hoyle's. He "built" fishing rods; and capitalizing on his local reputation, sold them for relatively outrageous prices considering the amount of non work and non effort he put into them: A typical 11' rod had two guides, a tip top, and a reel seat. No grips, and just a butt crutch tip. No cosmetic wraps or underwraps. I remember the propaganda, that anything beyond that was unnecessary and ruined the action and the fishing experience.

Anyhow, it all works. IMO, don't be too scientific.
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Old 02-19-2017, 09:52 AM   #19
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Heathen.
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Old 02-19-2017, 11:01 AM   #20
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My surf builds are pretty straight forward - no seat, simple wraps, shrink/cork/grip tape handles.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:16 PM   #21
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I give SAUERKRAUT two thumbs up for being on the cutting edge for 1975. That silver Daiwa 7000C he has on the yellow Lami was along with the gold series, the first of the next generation of skirted spool spinning reels coming along. Everyone was watching and following Daiwa at the time, and Penn followed with their line of skirted spool reels soon after. That reel he has there had a great silky smooth drag and was built like a tank. It was so cool and modern looking at the time that a lot of the Penn greenie traditionalists shied away from its non-traditional looks.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:56 PM   #22
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I give SAUERKRAUT two thumbs up for being on the cutting edge for 1975. That silver Daiwa 7000C he has on the yellow Lami was along with the gold series, the first of the next generation of skirted spool spinning reels coming along. Everyone was watching and following Daiwa at the time, and Penn followed with their line of skirted spool reels soon after. That reel he has there had a great silky smooth drag and was built like a tank. It was so cool and modern looking at the time that a lot of the Penn greenie traditionalists shied away from its non-traditional looks.
Thank you for the 1975 compliment,and the Diawa reel history. I actually found this reel (a whole outfit with a white Atom 40 attached) up around the Gay Head Cliffs. It had obviously fallen off somebody's beach buggy in the night. The outfit was run over and half buried by other buggies using the track; the rod was pulverized. I cleaned up the reel, and now put it to use as a "loaner" outfit for intrusive guests who insist on me hosting them to my beaches and escapes.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:16 AM   #23
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Thank you for the 1975 compliment,and the Diawa reel history. I actually found this reel (a whole outfit with a white Atom 40 attached) up around the Gay Head Cliffs. It had obviously fallen off somebody's beach buggy in the night. The outfit was run over and half buried by other buggies using the track; the rod was pulverized. I cleaned up the reel, and now put it to use as a "loaner" outfit for intrusive guests who insist on me hosting them to my beaches and escapes.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:53 AM   #24
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Alan is the man. Quiet and unassuming but more quality fish under his belt than many. He got to enjoy what I would consider the heydays of Stripers fishing. Be nice George.
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:03 AM   #25
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At least those Gralite waders kept the gas in.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:13 AM   #26
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Ha. I think he still is using them
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:16 AM   #27
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Hey Alan you still got that vehicle over on the Vineyard. Stickers must have been a pain with all that body rot.
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Old 02-27-2017, 11:25 AM   #28
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Hey Alan you still got that vehicle over on the Vineyard. Stickers must have been a pain with all that body rot.
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WOW !!! This is scary, I had the exact same vehicle (Jeep Commando) and same color, green with a white top and boat racks for my rod racks just like SAUERKRAUT has there. Mine was lifted a little with some bigger tires and white wagon wheels. A piece of junk basically but my first beach vehicle. Back then you would carry fish to market, and a lot of miscellaneous junk, sand, and salt. So you needed an old buggy that you didn't mind getting all grubby.
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:40 PM   #29
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Alan is the man. Quiet and unassuming but more quality fish under his belt than many. He got to enjoy what I would consider the heydays of Stripers fishing. Be nice George.
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And makes the best chili on the planet
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:36 PM   #30
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Hey Alan you still got that vehicle over on the Vineyard. Stickers must have been a pain with all that body rot.
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The '69 Jeepster Commando died a catastrophic demise when I fell asleep at the wheel, and flipped it coming off the beach after fishing a coveted vacation all-niter. I replaced it with this one-- a '79 CJ7, which is pleasantly rusting away over on the Vineyard, just like its owner.
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