crickets...

[Sea Dangles]

I call it constructive criticism
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

So are you suggesting everyone who helped craft it agreed . On its all its details ... history says no..

Of course there was disagreement. It was a convention in order to hammer out a constitution. Everyone had opinions on what would make the best constitution. But they did not disagree on the meaning of the words. There was disagreement by some, the Anti-Federalists, on how much power the proposed constitution gave to the federal government. If anything, those who initially, or finally, opposed ratification, did so on the grounds that the central government would be too strong. But compromises were made, and, in the end, only three delegates did not choose to sign on to ratification.

So the signers all finally agreed to the Constitution. They agreed on what the words meant. They agreed on its checks and balances. They agreed on which powers the central government should and would have. They even, post ratification, included, per compromise, the insertion of a Bill of Rights--again, to make certain that the central government could not abridge those rights. They agreed that the people and the states would retain the vast residuum of rights which were not granted to the central government.

Again, the disagreements were not on meaning. They were on how much power the central government would have. Those who disagreed with the Constitution on that ground, would be the very ones whose arguments would absolutely oppose any power the central government could have to restrict any natural right. They wouldn't have wanted the central government to have much, if any, more power than it had in the articles of confederation. And the rest, who signed on to ratification, agreed that the federal government would have, and only have, those powers enumerated to it in the Constitution. And they all agreed as to the meanings of the words that spelled out those enumerations of power. And those meanings stood up, as intended, for a century or more, before Progressivism started to "interpret" those words.

So don't go to the "Founders disagreed" notion as some justification for loose interpretation of the Constitution.

2017 and people are still seeking answers on its intent in the modern world .. so yes sea dangle is correct it's like the bible you see what you want to see

This "seeking answers on its intent in the modern world" notion is a result of an "intent" other than that of the Framer's Constitution. It is the intent of Progressives to impose layer upon layer of legislation upon and against the text of the Constitution in order to legally justify what is not "interpretation" but actually a rewriting of it, or, by proxy or deception, the creation of a new unwritten constitution. One whose meaning and intent run counter to the text of the Constitution.

The "intention" of the Constitution was to impose restrictions on the "intentions" of those in government who would, for whatever reason, good or ill, dictate rules and regulations which would deny the people their natural rights.

Those natural rights were based not on technological advances or the fashions of the day. They were based on human nature. On how humans assert power. On how humans desire freedom. The intention of the Constitution is to limit the power some humans can have over other humans. To assure the optimum freedom of individuals REGARDLESS OF WHICH TIME IN WHICH THEY LIVE. The "times" are fleeting, the nature of man, so long as humans exist, abides.

As far as I know, humans have not yet evolved into something other than they were in the 18th century. And the same desire of some to rule others, as witnessed in "our time," has not changed.

And if you pay attention to what Progressive doctrine has been since its inception, unless, as Sea Dangles would say, you are "smitten" by its promises, you will see that it has nothing to do with actual constitutional governance. Quite the contrary, it is about circumventing or gradually replacing that governance with an unlimited rule of supposed experts.

And no, it's not like the Bible. It's not about rules for getting to heaven. It is about life on earth. About human interaction with humans written by humans for humans. It is about "Caesar's" power not God's. Since God did not hold a convention, we don't have an actual written document of disputes and resolutions related by actual witnesses to the event. The Bible requires belief in that which cannot be known.

The Constitution is secular law. Such law cannot be "successful because people can't agree on what it means" as you put it. That is nonsense. If there is no agreement on what secular law means, then no-one would know how to comply with such law. Such law would not only be useless, it would contradict the very nature of law.

[detbuch]

Hey . . . wdmso, you don't like verbal gymnastics . . . how about this doozie provided by Spence?:

"In that case the beer is the emotional issue and the car the weapon. Hence why we have laws against drunk driving regardless if you hurt another person or not."

[detbuch]

Ooops . . . wdmso . . . you gotta like this one!! should be worth a 10 on the Olympic verbal gymnastics scale (again, provided by the ever reliable Spence):

"It's just like fisheries management. Need a systems driven solution. The problem is the true believers would rather kill the debate than level up and drive any change."

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Ooops . . . wdmso . . . you gotta like this one!! should be worth a 10 on the Olympic verbal gymnastics scale (again, provided by the ever reliable Spence):

"It's just like fisheries management. Need a systems driven solution. The problem is the true believers would rather kill the debate than level up and drive any change."

Takes gymnast to recognize a gymnast
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Takes gymnast to recognize a gymnast
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

In one brief stroke of the keyboard you admit that Spence is a verbal gymnast AND that you also are one since you recognize gymnasts AND that you are also a hypocrite who calls out someone for the very thing you are.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

In one brief stroke of the keyboard you admit that Spence is a verbal gymnast AND that you also are one since you recognize gymnasts AND that you are also a hypocrite who calls out someone for the very thing you are.

Pot meet kettle.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Pot meet kettle.

Right back at ya. I was already identified as a kettle or pot by another kettle or pot--so welcome to the huddle. You can be a pot or a kettle. Or both--meet yourself--look in mirror.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

In one brief stroke of the keyboard you admit that Spence is a verbal gymnast AND that you also are one since you recognize gymnasts AND that you are also a hypocrite who calls out someone for the very thing you are.

Heres a thought Don't involve me in your disagreements with another member . And then there's no need cry about the response... with the I am rubber your glue argument

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Heres a thought Don't involve me in your disagreements with another member . And then there's no need cry about the response... with the I am rubber your glue argument

Here's a thought, respond to my actual thoughts and discussions rather than merely characterizing them in some disparaging way or by changing the subject. You do that a lot. And that signals that you are not logically able to continue the discussion and must invoke some irrelevant stupidity to deflect your way out of being wrong or illogical.

Here's another thought, don't assume that your suggestion here means anything to me. I rub your nose into your own poop of characterizing me as a verbal gymnast, then you cry, telling me not to do it again.

[Got Stripers]

Didn’t take long for another nut with a semi auto rifle to add to the death toll for November’s carnage. I guess we can all this one a “mini” mass murder, I guess he’s just a bad shot or not good under pressure.
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Didn’t take long for another nut with a semi auto rifle to add to the death toll for November’s carnage. I guess we can all this one a “mini” mass murder, I guess he’s just a bad shot or not good under pressure.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The point being a "Mini" doesn't look like a black effing gun so people leave it alone.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Didn’t take long for another nut with a semi auto rifle to add to the death toll for November’s carnage. I guess we can all this one a “mini” mass murder, I guess he’s just a bad shot or not good under pressure.

California has nearly every law on the gun controllers wish-list.

Permit to buy then a 10 day waiting period to take possession of the gun, full gun and owner registration, "assault weapon" and hi-cap magazine ban, restricted carry laws, universal background checks / no private sales.

All those laws but no actual people with the balls to actually get guns out of the hands of bad people who are legally forbidden to own them.

It's so much easier to pass another law that only impacts those least likely to do anything wrong with a gun . . .

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by ReelinRod

California has nearly every law on the gun controllers wish-list.

Permit to buy then a 10 day waiting period to take possession of the gun, full gun and owner registration, "assault weapon" and hi-cap magazine ban, restricted carry laws, universal background checks / no private sales.

All those laws but no actual people with the balls to actually get guns out of the hands of bad people who are legally forbidden to own them.

It's so much easier to pass another law that only impacts those least likely to do anything wrong with a gun . . .

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nail squarely struck on head.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ReelinRod

California has nearly every law on the gun controllers wish-list.

And last time I checked had one of the lowest firearm death rates of any state.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by spence

And last time I checked had one of the lowest firearm death rates of any state.

and Yet.....

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/1...in-california/

[spence]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

and Yet.....

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/1...in-california/

Certainly not immune...the rate of mass shootings is going up nationwide.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by spence

And last time I checked had one of the lowest firearm death rates of any state.

You haven't even bought a ticket on your own train of thought, have you?

You're the one who brought up all the firearm deaths. So now we're back to mass shootings? Can you make up your mind please
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[The Dad Fisherman]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...gs-in-america/

"Twenty-seven percent of the mass shootings occurred in workplaces, and 1 in 8 took place at schools. Others took place in religious, military, retail and restaurant or other locations. California has had more mass shootings than any other state, with 21. While some locations have simply become shorthand for the tragedies that occurred there, others have added tragic phrases to the national vocabulary."

[spence]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...gs-in-america/

"Twenty-seven percent of the mass shootings occurred in workplaces, and 1 in 8 took place at schools. Others took place in religious, military, retail and restaurant or other locations. California has had more mass shootings than any other state, with 21. While some locations have simply become shorthand for the tragedies that occurred there, others have added tragic phrases to the national vocabulary."

California has double the population of every state but Texas...um...

[afterhours]

Laws are already in place should have prevented the last two mass shootings....texas murderer should not have been allowed to purchase firearms by law. and the other murderer from ca had a restraining order against him, was arrested for stabbing a woman in January and supposedly was recently firing many rounds in his neighborhood - I think there were many laws on the books to keep this chithead from possessing firearms. what would more unenforced laws on the books do?

[PaulS]

State firearm death rates, 2013. Rate per 100,000 population. National firearm death rate is 10.64.[2][3]

Alabama 17.79
Alaska 19.59
Arizona 14.20
Arkansas 16.93
California 7.89
Colorado 11.75
Connecticut 4.48
Delaware 10.80
Florida 12.49
Georgia 12.63
Hawaii 2.71
Idaho 14.08
Illinois 8.67
Indiana 13.04
Iowa 8.19
Kansas 11.44
Kentucky 14.15
Louisiana 19.15
Maine 11.89
Maryland 9.75
Massachusetts 3.18
Michigan 12.03
Minnesota 7.88
Mississippi 17.55
Missouri 14.56
Montana 16.94
Nebraska 8.99
Nevada 14.16
New Hampshire 7.03
New Jersey 5.69
New Mexico 15.63
New York 4.39
North Carolina 12.42
North Dakota 11.89
Ohio 11.14
Oklahoma 16.41
Oregon 11.76
Pennsylvania 11.36
Rhode Island 5.33
South Carolina 15.60
South Dakota 9.47
Tennessee 15.86
Texas 10.50
Utah 11.69
Vermont 10.37
Virginia 10.46
Washington 9.07
West Virginia 15.10
Wisconsin 9.93
Wyoming 17.51

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by PaulS

State firearm death rates, 2013. Rate per 100,000 population. National firearm death rate is 10.64.[2][3]

Alabama 17.79
Alaska 19.59
Arizona 14.20
Arkansas 16.93
California 7.89
Colorado 11.75
Connecticut 4.48
Delaware 10.80
Florida 12.49
Georgia 12.63
Hawaii 2.71
Idaho 14.08
Illinois 8.67
Indiana 13.04
Iowa 8.19
Kansas 11.44
Kentucky 14.15
Louisiana 19.15
Maine 11.89
Maryland 9.75
Massachusetts 3.18
Michigan 12.03
Minnesota 7.88
Mississippi 17.55
Missouri 14.56
Montana 16.94
Nebraska 8.99
Nevada 14.16
New Hampshire 7.03
New Jersey 5.69
New Mexico 15.63
New York 4.39
North Carolina 12.42
North Dakota 11.89
Ohio 11.14
Oklahoma 16.41
Oregon 11.76
Pennsylvania 11.36
Rhode Island 5.33
South Carolina 15.60
South Dakota 9.47
Tennessee 15.86
Texas 10.50
Utah 11.69
Vermont 10.37
Virginia 10.46
Washington 9.07
West Virginia 15.10
Wisconsin 9.93
Wyoming 17.51

The more populous a state is the lower the percentage of every death is of the population. So it will take more deaths in a high population state than the number of them in lower population states to equalize the percentage.

By those numbers (calculated on the basis of per 100,000) that you cite, New York would have had approximately 8 times (800%) more gun deaths than Alaska.

Nor does that list differentiate between types of guns used. I'm guessing that most of New York's gun deaths occurred in NY city and most were done with hand guns.

So one of the strictest gun law cities had far more gun deaths than one of the least strict states.

And, then, which type of gun is the most culpable in terms of total gun death numbers, hand guns or semi-automatic? So, which type, logically, is the bigger problem?

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

So one of the strictest gun law cities had far more gun deaths than one of the least strict states.

People love to say this, toss out Chicago etc... which makes little sense.

Localized restrictive gun laws likely have more to do with giving the police more tools to prosecute crime than to create a weapons vacuum when you can just drive outside of the city to purchase a gun.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by spence

People love to say this, toss out Chicago etc... which makes little sense.

Localized restrictive gun laws likely have more to do with giving the police more tools to prosecute crime than to create a weapons vacuum when you can just drive outside of the city to purchase a gun.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.2843521

Attorney general report shows 74% of firearms used in New York crimes were bought in states with weak gun laws

ALBANY — A new report proves what has long been suspected — the bulk of gun crimes committed in New York involve weapons that originated from out of state.

And even more frightening is how quickly they make it to New York.

Thousands of guns between 2010 and the end of 2015 found their way to the Big Apple and other parts of the state within a year of their last known purchase. And thousands more within three years, the report by state Attorney General Eric Schneiderman’s office says.

Of the 30,606 guns found with complete transaction histories, law enforcement officials recovered 5,873 within three years of the last known recorded purchase, including 2,437 within one year.

And a hefty one-in-five guns recovered after use in crimes were recently trafficked into New York.

The low “time-to-crime” number, the report says, is a strong indication that the weapons were purchased “with the intent to be diverted to criminal use.”

In New York City, 91% of the low "time-to-crime" guns originated out-of-state, the analysis found. That's the largest percentage in the state. Long Island came in second at 58%.

Feds can fight gun crime by fixing flaws in background checks

Schneiderman's office pointed to a Buffalo murder where a 9-mm. pistol was recovered in September 2012. The firearm was initially purchased in Ohio in February 2012 before making its way into New York.

“The data makes one thing abundantly clear: New York’s strong gun laws are being undermined at every turn by lax laws in other states,” Schneiderman said. “Even as we work to make our streets safer, the illegal guns most often used in violent crimes continue to pour into our state.”

Using federal data, Schneiderman’s office analyzed the transaction history of all 52,915 guns connected to crimes and recovered by law enforcement from 2010 through the end of 2015.

The report, “Target on Trafficking: Analysis of New York Crime Guns,” is the first statewide law enforcement agency to obtain and analyze such comprehensive crime gun data provided by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, Schneiderman said.

Pols say N.Y.'s tough laws can't stop guns from entering state

Of the 46,514 crime guns recovered by police with a known state of origin, an incredible 74%, or 33,344, were first sold to someone in another state.

That influx of out-of-state guns soars above the 29% national average, the report found.

Of the total recoveries, 75% were handguns, the weapon of choice among violent criminals, the report says. Of the 39,491 handguns recovered, 86% originated out-of-state.

“When you look at the illegal crime gun problem, it’s the handgun that’s killing people every day,” Schneiderman said.

A minuscule 6%, or 3,208, of the crime guns recovered belonged to the person who originally purchased the weapon, the report found.

New York in the wake of the Newtown, Conn., elementary school massacre enacted a series of gun control measures. They included expanding the ban on automatic weapons, banning the sale of high capacity magazines, and creating a system designed to keep the mentally ill from buying guns.

But even with the tougher laws, guns from states with weak gun control laws are wreaking havoc in New York, Schneiderman says.

The bulk of the illegal weapons come from six states that make up what’s known as the “Iron Pipeline” — Pennsylvania, Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. Ohio is also identified as a big supplier.

All have one thing in common — lax gun control laws, the report says.

The bulk of the guns come from Pennsylvania, Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. Ohio is also a big supplier. (Bryan Pace/for New York Daily News)

With 4,216, New York City has the highest concentration of likely-trafficked guns from Iron Pipeline states. Between 2010 and the end of 2015, guns that originated in Virginia made up 19% of all recoveries in the city, followed by Pennsylvania and Georgia, both at 13%, the report says.

Of the pipeline states and Ohio, only Pennsylvania requires background checks for private sales or at gun shows — and that’s only for handguns, the report says.

And only North Carolina of the seven states requires a permit to purchase a handgun.

“From New York's vantage point, the correlation between state and local laws and the source of trafficked guns is undeniable,” the report says.

“We believe the weakness of the gun laws in the Iron Pipeline states and Ohio, combined with direct access to New York via interstate highways and public transportation, has made them become the source-of-choice among gun traffickers running guns into New York.”

Schneiderman recommends the federal government close the so-called gun show loophole and require universal background checks, something Congress has refused to do.

He also urged the feds to make gun trafficking a crime and that states require all handgun owners to have a license.

Even New York can take action, the report found. Schneiderman wants passage of a gun kingpin bill that has been introduced that would make it a felony to illegally sell or possess 10 or more firearms.

The bill by Sen. Jeffrey Klein (D-Bronx) and Assemblywoman Amy Paulin (D-Westchester County) would carry a 25-years to life sentence for the illegal sale or possession of over 20 firearms.

“The Legislature should pass it and send a message to traffickers who think New York is an attractive market for illegal gun sales to think again,” the report says.

Schneiderman’s office on Tuesday is also unveiling an online analytics platform that will allow law enforcement and the public to track gun trafficking patterns in their individual communities.

Tom King, an NRA board member from New York and president of the state Rifle and Pistol Association, said he wanted to see the Schneiderman report before commenting.

New Yorkers Against Gun Violence also had no comment, preferring instead to wait for the release of the report.

Gov. Cuomo, who pushed for passage of the 2013 gun control law, has repeatedly called on Congress to help stem the flow of illegal guns into New York.

"Washington needs to act, pass reasonable gun safety laws, and stem this bloodshed once and for all — and this report is one more reason why,” Cuomo said of Schneiderman’s findings.

“New York proudly passed the strongest gun laws in the nation, but when someone can hop into a car, buy a gun just over the border and bring it back to commit a crime, Congress has failed in its prime responsibility to protect its citizens,” he said.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

People love to say this, toss out Chicago etc... which makes little sense.

Localized restrictive gun laws likely have more to do with giving the police more tools to prosecute crime than to create a weapons vacuum when you can just drive outside of the city to purchase a gun.

regardless of where the gun comes from, handguns are the gun of choice in most killings.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

regardless of where the gun comes from, handguns are the gun of choice in most killings.

But generally not the most deadly.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And, then, which type of gun is the most culpable in terms of total gun death numbers, hand guns or semi-automatic? So, which type, logically, is the bigger problem?

This is where you have to decompose the issues. A suicide may be different than a mass murder suicide. Different weapons, different considerations.

People love to push the stats around, see, see most deaths are by handgun not assault weapon etc...this just kills the dialogue.

Do we want to reduce gun violence or just ignore it?

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by spence

People love to push the stats around, see, see most deaths are by handgun not assault weapon etc...this just kills the dialogue.

Do we want to reduce gun violence or just ignore it?

But the mass shooting hysteria that drives the left's gun control agenda is like being hysterical about the dangers of electricity and only discussing lightning.

Gun rights people aren't the ones who are ignoring the real causes of gun violence. We are shouted down and demonized when we mention anything about it.

If the entire nation were murdered with guns at the same rate as Black males, 15 -24 years old (70.6/100K), there would be over 225,000 gun murders a year. 1.1% of the population comprises 20.3% of the gun homicides (2015 CDC stats).

What ideas do you have to reduce that horrible statistic?

Just a hint; making it harder for me, a 56 year old retired White guy living in the sticks, to acquire, possess and use a gun, is a non-starter.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by PaulS

State firearm death rates, 2013. Rate per 100,000 population. National firearm death rate is 10.64.[2][3]

Alabama 17.79
Alaska 19.59
Arizona 14.20
Arkansas 16.93
California 7.89
Colorado 11.75
Connecticut 4.48
Delaware 10.80
Florida 12.49
Georgia 12.63
Hawaii 2.71
Idaho 14.08
Illinois 8.67
Indiana 13.04
Iowa 8.19
Kansas 11.44
Kentucky 14.15
Louisiana 19.15
Maine 11.89
Maryland 9.75
Massachusetts 3.18
Michigan 12.03
Minnesota 7.88
Mississippi 17.55
Missouri 14.56
Montana 16.94
Nebraska 8.99
Nevada 14.16
New Hampshire 7.03
New Jersey 5.69
New Mexico 15.63
New York 4.39
North Carolina 12.42
North Dakota 11.89
Ohio 11.14
Oklahoma 16.41
Oregon 11.76
Pennsylvania 11.36
Rhode Island 5.33
South Carolina 15.60
South Dakota 9.47
Tennessee 15.86
Texas 10.50
Utah 11.69
Vermont 10.37
Virginia 10.46
Washington 9.07
West Virginia 15.10
Wisconsin 9.93
Wyoming 17.51

Just looking at statewide stats doesn't give much useful data.

Homicide is a city / metro thing and suicide is a suburban / rural thing. 60 percent of U.S. firearm homicides occur in the 62 cities of the country’s 50 largest metros . . . Only 27 percent of suicides do.