Bush's legacy...hero to zero?

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Buttman! Is that's the best the smartest man on the internet could come up with. How disappointing, Truth be told SPENCE the work place has never, I repeat never been safer, more worker friendly and more employee protected. Ever! Do you even work in a real work enviroment. Try to fire someone for being a slacker now a days. It can't be done.

Sorry, I was transcribing some ancient Korean poems in my head last night and the "utt" sound is phonetically the same as "uck" in that language. My bad...

But being able to fire someone isn't the kind of protection we're talking about. Yes, in general most workplaces are pretty safe but the credit should be given to the people who think like Ralph Nader (even though he's a kook) rather than Ronald Reagan. But under Bush the anti-government attitude sent regulations in the other direction. Granted, some conservatives think this was a good thing, who cares if Timmy's dad dies in the coal mine as long as the government doesn't get in the way.

I'm not ripping the MAN down. I'm just not saying he can walk on water. Hell, if he does 1/3 of what he said, I'll be voting for him in four years.

I don't think you really understand why some are so fascinated by the man. 1) He's black 2) he's inspiring 3) he seems to be pretty smart 4) he's pragmatic 5) we're in the middle of a generational shift and it looks like the people actually bucked the system and chose someone who (on paper at least) might be just what we need to lead us into the next century.

Obama has trancended the traditional wedge issues and has the potential to really change the dialogue in this country...

...or he could be a complete disaster. But I figured I'd at least give him a chance before passing judgement, as I did with GWB.

-spence

[striperman36]

But he doesn't fish

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Sorry, I was transcribing some ancient Korean poems in my head last night and the "utt" sound is phonetically the same as "uck" in that language. My bad...

But being able to fire someone isn't the kind of protection we're talking about. Yes, in general most workplaces are pretty safe but the credit should be given to the people who think like Ralph Nader (even though he's a kook) rather than Ronald Reagan. But under Bush the anti-government attitude sent regulations in the other direction. Granted, some conservatives think this was a good thing, who cares if Timmy's dad dies in the coal mine as long as the government doesn't get in the way.


I don't think you really understand why some are so fascinated by the man. 1) He's black 2) he's inspiring 3) he seems to be pretty smart 4) he's pragmatic 5) we're in the middle of a generational shift and it looks like the people actually bucked the system and chose someone who (on paper at least) might be just what we need to lead us into the next century.

Obama has trancended the traditional wedge issues and has the potential to really change the dialogue in this country...

...or he could be a complete disaster. But I figured I'd at least give him a chance before passing judgement, as I did with GWB.

-spence

Maybe if you could supply so statistics to back that up it would help.
Here's a link http://www.bls.gov/iif/, in every catagory, the work place injury rates have steadily improved year to year.

This is what people and the media have done in regards to Bush. Throw out an untruth, say it often enough, Bush won't defend himself, and it becomes fact. The fact is the workplace is safer now then 8 years ago.

As far as Obama goes, I agree with you.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

This is what people and the media have done in regards to Bush. Throw out an untruth, say it often enough, Bush won't defend himself, and it becomes fact. The fact is the workplace is safer now then 8 years ago.

Once again, you're missing the point.

1) It's not like a policy shift is going to result in immediate problems, which could take years or even decades to manifest.

2) I'd wager a lot of the drop in workplace injuries the past decade have to do with the continued outsourcing of higher-risk manufacturing jobs.

When people talk about workplace safety and Bush they're talking about the policy shifts that may influence the trends. Toxic substances being labeled as "not all that toxic", freezing new OSHA protections and repealing ergonimics standards for workplace injury.

Most of this isn't written into Bills by Congress but hidden in executive orders and by pressuring internal governmental organizations. There are no simple "stats" to quote as the issue is far more complicated.

This of course is also a partisan issue. Liberals believe more government regulation is necessary to protect workers, Conservatives believe the businesses should be left to regulate themselves.

Ultimately the best path is probably in the middle.

Do you know what Buckman means in Tibek-Himalayan? I can't say

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

This is what people and the media have done in regards to Bush. Throw out an untruth, say it often enough, Bush won't defend himself, and it becomes fact. The fact is the workplace is safer now then 8 years ago.

As far as Obama goes, I agree with you.

As I've stated many many times:

Correlation does not imply causation.

I would 100% agree that the workplace is safer now than it was 8 years ago. However, I strongly disagree that Bush had a single thing to do with it.

8 years is a long time when you consider advances in safety equipment and processes. Also, we live in a litigation-happy society now (thanks to groups like the ACLU) and I know that alone has motivated employers to improve their safety records. In addition, OSHA has tightened their regulations and actually enforces some of them now instead of turning a blind eye.

God forbid anyone dare defend Bush for protecting us. FYI. Obama will keep the same policies. BECAUSE THEY WORK

Taking the economy, unemployment rate, several reports that we're no safer from terrorists than we were 8 years ago, the last minute Executive Order taking science out of environmental policies and Bush's abysmal approval rating - I would have to disagree that any of Bush's policies have worked.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by spence

Sorry, I was transcribing some ancient Korean poems in my head last night and the "utt" sound is phonetically the same as "uck" in that language. My bad...

But being able to fire someone isn't the kind of protection we're talking about. Yes, in general most workplaces are pretty safe but the credit should be given to the people who think like Ralph Nader (even though he's a kook) rather than Ronald Reagan. But under Bush the anti-government attitude sent regulations in the other direction. Granted, some conservatives think this was a good thing, who cares if Timmy's dad dies in the coal mine as long as the government doesn't get in the way.


I don't think you really understand why some are so fascinated by the man. 1) He's black 2) he's inspiring 3) he seems to be pretty smart 4) he's pragmatic 5) we're in the middle of a generational shift and it looks like the people actually bucked the system and chose someone who (on paper at least) might be just what we need to lead us into the next century.

Obama has trancended the traditional wedge issues and has the potential to really change the dialogue in this country...

...or he could be a complete disaster. But I figured I'd at least give him a chance before passing judgement, as I did with GWB.

-spence

Spence, I have some land to sell you... You seem to be satisfied with simple promises and nothing else. The wedge issues he has supposedly transcended are already biting him in the ass. Ask the gay community who thought they had their savior. Do you actually believe he will lead us into the next century when it is the year 2009? Are you living in a yurt or just eating mushrooms?
He is smart, the rest of your points are without merit.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Spence, I have some land to sell you... You seem to be satisfied with simple promises and nothing else. The wedge issues he has supposedly transcended are already biting him in the ass. Ask the gay community who thought they had their savior. Do you actually believe he will lead us into the next century when it is the year 2009? Are you living in a yurt or just eating mushrooms?
He is smart, the rest of your points are without merit.

I'm not an Obama zealot, and don't trust any politician to make good on their promises. What Obama does bring is a vision that the majority of America agrees with, and a sense of leadership that people seem to believe in. Bush 43 had the vision but little leadership, and we quickly came to understand that his vision was an election year stunt. I'm willing to give Obama a chance, as I stated above...

As for the gay issue, Obama clearly brings a new attitude towards these issues different than any previous US president. So they got their black t-shirts in a tizzy because he has a religious speaker who's not GLB friendy, big whoop. Personally I don't like what the man says, but it's clear Obama is trying to reach out.

Is it all calculated BS? Sure it is...but I'll give him some points for trying.

Where's the land?

-spence