O'bowma

[TheSpecialist]

By your definition not mine.

BTW I would not classify a bank robbery as terrorism because most are in and out, not holding the whole bank or customers for hours on end for a ransom.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Because the pizza comment is a big load of crap. Here's the real story:
http://news.aol.com/political-machin...-pizza-really/



We'll call it Pizza-gate. Add this to Teleprompter-Gate, Lipstick-Gate, Birth Certificate-Gate and Secret Muslim-Gate

And Conservatives wonder why support for their party is dying.


Also, none of the "points" scott mentioned could be defined as childish. But the Conservatives just try to take any negative word they can think of and try to make it somehow applicable without any real evidence like scott and Swimmer have done above.

John I don't think I commented on any of the above alledged childish/immature/inane/foolish acts in any of my posts. Don't lump me in with anyone else. Remember I didn't cite any one reason why I think O'Bowma is childish and naive, thank you. Oh by the way I have voted for Ted Kennedy I believe in every election that he was a candidate.

BY the way your comments reminded of the birth certificate problem. Why is it the hospital in Hawaii wont make public those records? Or did they?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

By your definition not mine.

BTW I would not classify a bank robbery as terrorism because most are in and out, not holding the whole bank or customers for hours on end for a ransom.

So a bank robbery is only terrorism if they take hostages? Either way they're still coercing a civilian into handing over money and inciting fear into people.

Where exactly do you draw the line of what terrorism is then?

In all aspects, terrorism is motivated to incite fear in the general population in the domestic territory of a country, disrupt government or create anarchy.

Piracy falls into none of the above. The pirates are purely for profit. They don't want to disrupt shipping, just inconvenience the companies enough so that they pay ransom. If they disrupt profit, then their income goes away.

[TheSpecialist]

The whole country was talking about the piracy episode, not a bank robbery in boston mass. Therefore I think the piracy episode affected the whole country.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

John I don't think I commented on any of the above alledged childish/immature/inane/foolish acts in any of my posts. Don't lump me in with anyone else. Remember I didn't cite any one reason why I think O'Bowma is childish and naive, thank you. Oh by the way I have voted for Ted Kennedy I believe in every election that he was a candidate.

BY the way your comments reminded of the birth certificate problem. Why is it the hospital in Hawaii wont make public those records? Or did they?

I'm sorry for any confusion. That post was in reply to scott's post about Obama ordering pizza from 850 miles away.

I apologize if you thought I was lumping you in with the likes of scott. I know you are not at all ridiculous in the way he is.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

The whole country was talking about the piracy episode, not a bank robbery in boston mass. Therefore I think the piracy episode affected the whole country.

The whole country was talking about the murder of Caylee Anthony. Does that now make her murderer a terrorist?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The whole country was talking about the murder of Caylee Anthony. Does that now make her murderer a terrorist?

haa, you keep making foolish comments like this and call me rediculous....


ahhh..the whole country was talking about the monkey that ate the lady's face off...does that now make the monkey a terrorist?

geez....get a grip....

[Cool Beans]

"Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. "

So if a group of pirates, run around taking ships and hostages, influence companies and governments to pay the ransom money. Their acts have influenced the US government enough to increase naval patrols in the area, not only that their actions have influenced a host of governments to send warships to combat their actions. Instead of political reasons behind them they are doing it for cash. Coercing fro money, isn't that different from coercing for political change. The pirates actions instill terror into their victims and have influenced several countries into changing the positions of our warships and are Terrorists.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=Cool Beans;681388]"Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. "

sounds like your average Acorn organized, union funded bus trip tour of executives homes...

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

So if a group of pirates, run around taking ships and hostages, influence companies and governments to pay the ransom money. Their acts have influenced the US government enough to increase naval patrols in the area, not only that their actions have influenced a host of governments to send warships to combat their actions. Instead of political reasons behind them they are doing it for cash. Coercing fro money, isn't that different from coercing for political change. The pirates actions instill terror into their victims and have influenced several countries into changing the positions of our warships and are Terrorists.

By this reasoning then gangs, the mafia etc... are all Terrorists.

I think it's important then to understand what this really means. What can you do to a terrorist that you can't do to a criminal?

Under the Bush Doctrine it means we could strike pre-emptively without regard to Internation law or territory. Even if the Terrorist was a US citizen they could be detained indefinately without council or heabus corpus.

To date most of these attacks appear to have been simple for profit robberies with no loss of life. Their goal certainly isn't terrorism, for if people and shipping companies were afraid to travel their waters they wouldn't have anyone to hold hostage! Their business model would be obsolete.

Now if we have evidence that money from piracy is being funneled to al Queda for instance, now we have a different situation entirely. I'd be curious to see if the Obama Administration looks to make this connection before using hard military force on the Somalia mainland. Even if nobody really cares about Somalia, the thought of dropping bombs to preempt more robberies has many legal and ethical pitfalls.

-spence

[TheSpecialist]

Their goal certainly isn't terrorism, for if people and shipping companies were afraid to travel their waters they wouldn't have anyone to hold hostage!

By this reasoning, none should work in high-rises, or travel by airplane, there for 9/11 was not a terrorist act.

[spence]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

By this reasoning, none should work in high-rises, or travel by airplane, there for 9/11 was not a terrorist act.

Well, no.

The point of 9/11 wasn't to scare people from flying in planes, it was to hurt the US economy and influence our foreign policy.

The pirates are more akin to violent extortionists.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

haa, you keep making foolish comments like this and call me rediculous....


ahhh..the whole country was talking about the monkey that ate the lady's face off...does that now make the monkey a terrorist?

geez....get a grip....

That is precisely my point. Just because it got national attention does not mean it actually affects us nationally.

[scottw]

affects

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

affects

damn you... I'll give you that on.

[scottw]

you are funny, we should fish sometime, I just got back from the pluggin' at the beach for a while...this weather will cheer everyone up!

[Swimmer]

[quote=spence;681399]By this reasoning then gangs, the mafia etc... are all Terrorists.
Spence losely all criminal organizations are terrorists. They take over and control large pieces of territory in cities and the suburbs. They take over blocks at a time and protect them fiercely. Everyone is in fear of them. I think the only reason as a society we don't look at this as being as a certainty is because most gangs, mafia types prey on their own kind. All the Italians used to and many still do pay protection money in the big cities. But since its a way of life in a romantic way, as portrayed on TV and in movies, to some its as much a social issue as it is a criminal enterprise.
Next time I attend gang training I'll see if there is an empty seat for you.
Simple put, you can kill a terrorist.
Once probable cause was presented that the person was a terrorist they become enemy combatants. We didn't provide lawyers for all the Germans we took as POW's.
Its only a matter of time before they try killing people as a way of garnering more extortion from the owners of the vessels they have been hijacking.
Actually thier is a group in Somalia that is an organized terrorist organization that has been loosely linked to Al Queda. It would not surpirse me to hear that some of the money is funneled to them from the hijackings.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

you are funny, we should fish sometime, I just got back from the pluggin' at the beach for a while...this weather will cheer everyone up!

I'd love to. While in this forum, many people are nutbag, psycho republicans, outside of it I still respect you and see you all as peers.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Spence losely all criminal organizations are terrorists. They take over and control large pieces of territory in cities and the suburbs. They take over blocks at a time and protect them fiercely. Everyone is in fear of them. I think the only reason as a society we don't look at this as being as a certainty is because most gangs, mafia types prey on their own kind. All the Italians used to and many still do pay protection money in the big cities. But since its a way of life in a romantic way, as portrayed on TV and in movies, to some its as much a social issue as it is a criminal enterprise.

Yea, I understand all of that.

The point is that "terrorize" is a verb and "terrorist" is a noun. Terrorist with a big "T" is something special that as a society has meaning. I can terrorize my neighbor all year long but that doesn't make me a "Terrorist" (note the big T). Same goes for the mafia unless you think we should firebomb Providence and waterboard Uncle Louie to know where the next hit is going down.

Hell, even think about some of what you read on this board. Brand someone a "Terrorist" (note the big T again) and all gloves are off. Kill them, torture them etc... with no evidence necessary.

Say someone might not be a "Terrorist" and you get a similar response. It's like a drug...

Its only a matter of time before they try killing people as a way of garnering more extortion from the owners of the vessels they have been hijacking.

All this will result in is more security and dropping margins in the pirate business. There are diminishing returns here that are not very attractive. Just because they're pirates doesn't make them dumb, they'll have to really innovate their business model to continue to succeed.

It's quite possible that taking a US ship was a strategic mistake.

Actually thier is a group in Somalia that is an organized terrorist organization that has been loosely linked to Al Queda. It would not surpirse me to hear that some of the money is funneled to them from the hijackings.

It's certainly possible but I've not heard anything that really offers any proof either. If there is it would make the legitimacy of any such military action much easier to justify.

-spence