sh*thole countries

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

your very clear on you stance .. and how you feel about immigrants.. the only mental illness is your reasoning when it comes to immigration and how it works...

Even with all these immigrants from these #^&#^&#^&#^& hole country's and all the bad they bring (according to republicans) unemployment is at an all time low the markets up ... and republicans still want to blame immigration and keep the Base happy all still here and the sky hasn't fallen)

One thing that I sincerely admire about liberals, is that they want those at the bottom to get ahead. Liberals like to bemoan that those at the bottom, don't see rising wages. Part of the reason why, is that between legel/illegal immigration, we have millions of penniless, unskilled workers, willing to work for next to nothing.

WDMSO, when you increase the supply of something, do you know what happens to the value of that something? It decreases. It is beyond dispute, that immigration has limited the ability of poor Americans to earn more.

That is a fact. And it's worth considering, when detailing immigration policy. We can't act like there's no downside.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It is beyond dispute, that immigration has limited the ability of poor Americans to earn more.

This is up there with the most absurd things ever said in this forum.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

This is up there with the most absurd things ever said in this forum.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

OK, comrade, tell me what's wrong with this logic.

There are Americans with very low skills.

Most of them make low wages.

We would like them to be able to command higher wages.

When we bring in millions of unskilled immigrants, that's more competition, for the same number of low-skill jobs. When you increase supply of something without a proportional increase in demand for that something, the price for that something (in this case, the wages of low-skill workers) will decrease.

Furthermore, the illegals among the unskilled laborers, are willing to work for less than minimum wage. This drives down the market value of unskilled labor. Which , obviously, makes it harder for unskilled workers to command a higher wage in the free market. If there were fewer unskilled workers, those that remain, could demand a higher wage. Because of decreased supply.

Supply and demand, Spence...supply and demand. You never read page one of a college economics or finance text?



Instead of just saying "that's absurd", enlighten me. Educate me. Tell me where my logic is flawed.

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

OK, comrade, tell me what's wrong with this logic.

There are Americans with very low skills.

Most of them make low wages.

We would like them to be able to command higher wages.

When we bring in millions of unskilled immigrants, that's more competition, for the same number of low-skill jobs. When you increase supply of something without a proportional increase in demand for that something, the price for that something (in this case, the wages of low-skill workers) will decrease.

Furthermore, the illegals among the unskilled laborers, are willing to work for less than minimum wage. This drives down the market value of unskilled labor. Which , obviously, makes it harder for unskilled workers to command a higher wage in the free market. If there were fewer unskilled workers, those that remain, could demand a higher wage. Because of decreased supply.

Supply and demand, Spence...supply and demand. You never read page one of a college economics or finance text?



Instead of just saying "that's absurd", enlighten me. Educate me. Tell me where my logic is flawed.

Be careful, you're making sense and some lefty is going to pop up and call you an arrogant racist... LOL

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

Be careful, you're making sense and some lefty is going to pop up and call you an arrogant racist... LOL

He’s not arrogant.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

He’s not arrogant.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

You're right, but I'm WAY more arrogant than I am racist...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

Be careful, you're making sense and some lefty is going to pop up and call you an arrogant racist... LOL

That's when I know that I've won the debate.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

OK, comrade, tell me what's wrong with this logic.

There are Americans with very low skills.

Most of them make low wages.

We would like them to be able to command higher wages.

When we bring in millions of unskilled immigrants, that's more competition, for the same number of low-skill jobs. When you increase supply of something without a proportional increase in demand for that something, the price for that something (in this case, the wages of low-skill workers) will decrease.

Furthermore, the illegals among the unskilled laborers, are willing to work for less than minimum wage. This drives down the market value of unskilled labor. Which , obviously, makes it harder for unskilled workers to command a higher wage in the free market. If there were fewer unskilled workers, those that remain, could demand a higher wage. Because of decreased supply.

Supply and demand, Spence...supply and demand. You never read page one of a college economics or finance text?



Instead of just saying "that's absurd", enlighten me. Educate me. Tell me where my logic is flawed.

Past 8 years there have been on avg 11.3 million illigal immagrants. (NOT LEGAL) in the USA

45mil americans or 14% of all Americans live below the poverty line

These facts clearly go against your statement

And seems you need to explain what unskilled jobs they are depressing. that poor Americans are upset that they cant obtain

Picking Strawberry's, avacados farm hands landscaping

So 11.5 million poor immigrant are making a living off depressed wages that they are depressing yet paying bills and spending money ..and at the same time taking jobs from 45 million poor Americans who you suggest want those jobs ..
In a country of 323 million .. your math isn't adding up

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Past 8 years there have been on avg 11.3 million illigal immagrants. (NOT LEGAL) in the USA

45mil americans or 14% of all Americans live below the poverty line

These facts clearly go against your statement

Those 45 million americans are competing with many immigrants (legal and illegal) for the finite number of low skill jobs out there.

Increased competition, leads to lower price. I can't say it any simpler than that.

Wages at the bottom are not keeping up with inflation. So the math is indeed backing me up. So is common sense.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

One thing that I sincerely admire about liberals, is that they want those at the bottom to get ahead. Liberals like to bemoan that those at the bottom, don't see rising wages. Part of the reason why, is that between legel/illegal immigration, we have millions of penniless, unskilled workers, willing to work for next to nothing.

WDMSO, when you increase the supply of something, do you know what happens to the value of that something? It decreases. It is beyond dispute, that immigration has limited the ability of poor Americans to earn more.

That is a fact. And it's worth considering, when detailing immigration policy. We can't act like there's no downside.

Immigration arguments like yours is like saying don't pee in the ocean it will turn it yellow ...
Immigration has no effect on poor American to earn more . But keep thinking that's why poor Americans are poor .... because of immigrants .. you nailed it

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Immigration arguments like yours is like saying don't pee in the ocean it will turn it yellow ...
Immigration has no effect on poor American to earn more . But keep thinking that's why poor Americans are poor .... because of immigrants .. you nailed it

Once again, a liberal responds to something I never even came close to saying. I didn’t say immigration causes poverty. But it doesn’t help. Maybe if you worked in the private sector for three seconds, or if you ever bothered to learn about economics, you’d understand. If you have a poor American making 10/hr, and you have a lot of immigrants willing to work for less, it makes it harder for him to get more. Not everyone is in a union where you get raises automatically, most of us have to command raises. It’s harder to do that with unskilled immigrants.

No sane person denies that. You deny it because you don’t happen to like it. Supply and demand exists whether your Bolshevik view likes it or not. I don’t like it either. But I know it exists.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Immigration has no effect on poor American to earn more .

You are saying that when there is an influx of a cheap supply of something (in this case, unskilled labor), that doesn't suppress the price of that something.

If you made $10 /hour cleaning toilets, and you went to your boss asking for a raise. And your boss knows there are immigrants willing to clean his toilets for less. Does that not reduce your chances of getting a raise?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

WDMSO, when you increase the supply of something, do you know what happens to the value of that something? It decreases. It is beyond dispute, that immigration has limited the ability of poor Americans to earn more.

That is a fact. And it's worth considering, when detailing immigration policy. We can't act like there's no downside.

This has been studied a lot and found that it's really not true. Many immigrants aren't low skilled and fill gaps in the workplace. A lot of low-skilled labor based jobs Americans simply don't want. Farmers that rely on immigrant workers continually face labor shortages.

I'm sure you can find some specific anecdotes where it's the case but in a general sense doesn't seem to pan out.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

This has been studied a lot and found that it's really not true. Many immigrants aren't low skilled and fill gaps in the workplace. A lot of low-skilled labor based jobs Americans simply don't want. Farmers that rely on immigrant workers continually face labor shortages.

I'm sure you can find some specific anecdotes where it's the case but in a general sense doesn't seem to pan out.

"This has been studied a lot and found that it's really not true"

It's not true that increasing supply suppress prices? That's not true? Fascinating, what a breakthrough!

"Many immigrants aren't low skilled "

And many are. What percentage of the illegals would you say are low skilled?

"in a general sense doesn't seem to pan out"

So why do liberals bemoan that wages at the bottom are not rising?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So why do liberals bemoan that wages at the bottom are not rising?

A lot of factors here, automation technology, declines in unions, some due to cheap imports etc...the value of labor has declined but it's not primarily due to oversupply. Big problem is it's easier for the wealthy to make money with capital rather than investment in people.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

A lot of factors here, automation technology,
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Interesting. Then why do liberals deny that increases in minimum wage, reduce the demand for minimum wage workers?

Spence, this is fascinating.

First, regarding immigration, liberals are denying that an influx of cheap supply of an item, will reduce its price.

Second, regarding the potential adverse effects of minimum wage hikes, liberals are denying that when you increase the cost of something, that the demand for that something will decrease.

I'm really, truly learning a lot here. Much of what I was taught about economics, supply & demand, and the elasticity of price, was all wrong. Wow.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Interesting. Then why do liberals deny that increases in minimum wage, reduce the demand for minimum wage workers?

Spence, this is fascinating.

First, regarding immigration, liberals are denying that an influx of cheap supply of an item, will reduce its price.

Second, regarding the potential adverse effects of minimum wage hikes, liberals are denying that when you increase the cost of something, that the demand for that something will decrease.

I'm really, truly learning a lot here. Much of what I was taught about economics, supply & demand, and the elasticity of price, was all wrong. Wow.

I've never heard anyone claim increased minimum wage decreases demand for those workers.

As for the other. You're trying to apply a very basic theory to a very complex situation with a lot more variables.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I've never heard anyone claim increased minimum wage decreases demand for those workers.

As for the other. You're trying to apply a very basic theory to a very complex situation with a lot more variables.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"I've never heard anyone claim increased minimum wage decreases demand for those workers"

Of course you haven't, because they won't say that on MSNBC.

Spence, all other things being equal, when you increase the price of something, what happens to the demand?

"You're trying to apply a very basic theory to a very complex situation with a lot more variables"

Oh. So the liberals know that the GOP tax overhaul will cost 1.5 trillion, because that's a simple calculation with no moving pieces in a world where everything always stays exactly the same.