Absolutely Nails It

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Ya, I heard part of it and noticed he had another new scare tatic statement.

Not an exact qoute but-- If we don't do something with health care imediately
it will be a catastrophe.

He uses scare tactics for every bill he wants passed.

It's growing old real quick.

But it wasn't old under Clinton for 8 years and Bush 43 for 8 years?

Bush couldn't pass a bill without reminding everyone that if they didn't support it they would soon be dead.

To be honest I haven't heard Obama make many doom and gloom statements that are out of line. Some of his policy responses to the problems are weak, but for instance with health care we do have a massive bomb about to explode.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

But it wasn't old under Clinton for 8 years and Bush 43 for 8 years? Bush couldn't pass a bill without reminding everyone that if they didn't support it they would soon be dead.

-spence

Spence, you will have to jog my memory of the Clinton and Bush years when Every bill was an emergency,crisis, or needed immediate action including the times when it was so massive and such a crisis Congress couldn't read it, let alone understand it before it was passed?

Obama is pushing most everything on the basis of fear.

Just caught some of his news conference where he wants to add more bureaucracy on top of the Fed and SEC.

He used the word crisis 5 times!

Is adding more bureaucracy a crisis, or does the FED and SEC need to get their act together and do their job?

Do we really need more government to mess up what they already messed up?

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Obama is pushing most everything on the basis of fear.

...

He used the word crisis 5 times!

Hmmm... sounds exactly like the justification for the Patriot Act, the invasion of Afghanistan, the invasion of Iraq and most political decisions made by Bush. Just replace the word "crisis" for either "terrorists" or "WMDs".

Now, I'm not much a fan of what Obama is doing in terms of the possible healthcare plan or *some* of the regulations. However, the way he's trying to campaign support for them is no different than how most policies were pushed through in the last 8 years.

It's business as usual and the American public is still stupid enough to fall for it.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It's business as usual and the American public is still stupid enough to fall for it.

I agree JD, except i don't believe it is all stupidity.

IMHO ,the average Americans are so busy working to keep their heads above water,
they don't have the time to keep up with this lighting speed legislation and the slew of new programs every week.

Politicians know it and know memories are short in these warp speed changing times.
They count on it, and Obama is taking it to a new level.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by justplugit

IMHO ,the average Americans are so busy working to keep their heads above water,
they don't have the time to keep up with this lighting speed legislation and the slew of new programs every week.

If that's the excuse now, what was the excuse 3, 5 or even 7 years ago when the economy was flourishing and everyone had a job?

The average American is ignorant when it comes to politics and the policies that will have an effect on their day to day lives and their children's lives. Call me a cynic but the intelligent people (for the most part ) that participate in this forum is a poor representation of the average American public. None of us will agree on every thing, and a majority will disagree on most subjects; informed, critical thinking and insight takes place here every day. I don't believe the average American has those capabilities.

When the elections were taking place, my roommate's girlfriend couldn't even name Obama or McCain's running mates - and she wasn't the only one I bumped into that couldn't. I'm talking about college educated, intelligent people - not the bums sitting at home watching Maury everyday collection their handouts (who as an aside, should know the most about politics due to the massive amount of time on their hands).

[justplugit]

[QUOTE=JohnnyD;694792]If that's the excuse now, what was the excuse 3, 5 or even 7 years ago when the economy was flourishing and everyone had a job?

[/QUOTE
JD, I would say it started 15-20 year ago when corporate mergers became common place and with downsizing came 60-70 hr work weeks becoming the norm instead of the 40 hour week.

Not much time left to keep current on politics on all levels when at work or chained to a cell 24/7.

I agree every American should know the basics of our government and participate, but the few who have the time to keep abreast of Obama's new warp speed daily programs are few and far between.

That is to all our detriment.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Hmmm... sounds exactly like the justification for the Patriot Act, the invasion of Afghanistan, the invasion of Iraq and most political decisions made by Bush. Just replace the word "crisis" for either "terrorists" or "WMDs".

.

maybe you've forgotten, at the beginning of the Bush years, a bomb actually DID go off( and we had a corresponding recession).....to compare the response to a terrorist attack on American soil and the justification for the response to it and the threat it clearly posed regarding potential future attacks with the response to a recession which includes blatant opportunistic wholesale government takeover of large sectors of American economy, Czar after Czar appointed, government intrusion into every aspect of American life and deficit spending like none seen in history would show a clear lack of critical thinking and insight... we've had a dozen recessions in the last hundred years...only one ended in a depression and we're following the same recipe...seems to me most dems say we should have gone to Afghan. and focused all our efforts there, would you argue that the Patriot Act has not made us safer?...NOONE has provided a coherent alternative of what should have been done with Iraq/Saddam...300 more UN resolutions?...years and years of food for oil scandal, headaches, torture( I'd refer you back to the Iraqi History Project)...continued funding of terrorism by the Iraqi regime, WHAT WOULD THE MIDDLE EAST LOOK LIKE RIGHT NOW WITH THIS WEAK ASS PRESIDENT AND SADDAM STILL AROUND TO FURTHER COMPLICATE MATTERS, HE WASN'T EXACTLY COOPERATIVE and his kids(heirs) were worse!...but if you want to point to that and say that the threat was INFLATED and claim it somehow similar to what is being done by this administration using "CRISIS" to make MASSIVE changes in all of our lives with little regard for the outcome and open disdain for anyone that offers criticism...can you imagine if Bush had bristled at criticism and openly attacked his critics and media outlets that questioned his judgment the way that this president does? Bush was always clear that he respected those that disagree with him, Obama smugly calls those that disagree with him liars and criticizes media outlets for not towing his line....I'm not a huge Bush fan but if you make a list of the criticiams of him through his 8 years most were created by the left for political leverage and advantage..the "domestic spying saga" was crap..Valerie Plame was crap....the firing of the US Attorney's-crap, Clinton fired all 93 without a whimper from the dems...hell, they were so desperate with regard to his ROTC records that they forged them and ran them on a National News Broadcast...where are all of those investigators with regard to Obama's past????...if the Patriot Act was this horrible nefarious thing created and fostered on the heel of a crisis then exactly what advantage did/do currently the NEOCONS gain from it?????...exactly what political advantage was Bush hoping to gain by going to Iraq? EVERY FREAKING DAY THIS ADMINISTRATION UNROLLS ANOTHER TAKEOVER OVER SOME PART OF THIS ECONOMY AND IT'S INDUSTRY THROUGH DIRECT CONTROL BY GOVERNMENT OR BY ONE OF IT'S APPROVED/APPOINTED MINIONS....NO, HE'S NOT A SOCIALIST

In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism. This was to be achieved by a form of government control over business and labour (called "the corporate state" by Mussolini).

BTW MUSSOLINI was a huge fan of FDR

DE JA VU all over again....

Greatly admiring Benito Mussolini's fascist system in Italy, Roosevelt proceeded to implement the same type of economic system in the U.S. For example, his National Recovery Act gave him virtually unlimited dictatorial powers over American business and industry. And any American citizen who did not do his "patriotic" duty by supporting the NRA and its "Blue Eagle" soon found himself at the receiving end of FDR's vengeance and retaliation.

And it was during this period of time that such alien schemes as the Social Security Act, the FDIC, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, the Emergency Banking Relief Act the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Federal Securities Act, and the National Labor Relations Act came into existence — all with the aim of taking control of people's lives as well as absolving them from responsibility for errors and foolhardiness by giving them the political loot that had been stolen from others.

But all of this was not sufficient for FDR. He persuaded Congress to provide him a power which Stalin and Mussolini proudly possessed: the power to nationalize people's gold. And his confiscation of gold was accompanied by one of the most shameful acts in American history: the repudiation of government debts payable in gold — the noteholders, most of whom were Americans who had in good faith trusted their government, were instead paid in devalued paper money.

And what was the reaction of the American people to the evil, immoral, and tyrannical acts of FDR? Like people in other parts of the world who were suffering under dictatorial rule — Russians, Germans, and Italians — most of them reacted like sheep — meekly going along with their own slaughter and, in many instances, ardently supporting it. Having lost the sense of self-reliance which had characterized their ancestors — having lost their faith in freedom and themselves — having lost their faith in God Himself — the American people proceeded to relinquish to Caesar the power to direct their lives and plunder their fortunes, just as people throughout history had done.

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

NOONE has provided a coherent alternative of what should have been done with Iraq/Saddam.

Sure, continue to contain and work towards a coup. As bad a regime Saddam's was, the fact is he wasn't really able to hurt anyone beyond his own borders and most of his country hated him.

It's not a perfect solution for sure, but far better than the path that was chosen.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Sure, continue to contain and work towards a coup. As bad a regime Saddam's was, the fact is he wasn't really able to hurt anyone beyond his own borders and most of his country hated him.

It's not a perfect solution for sure, but far better than the path that was chosen.
YOU DON"T KNOW THIS
-spence

he was funding terrorist organizations...OUTSIDE HIS BORDERS

in every country suffering under a dictator' oppression "most of his country hated(hates) him.," this is the exactly the case...you are so naieve...


in the late 90's when it served the dems/left NBC was running stories on Saddam with his picture side by side with Hitler's during their news cast and making all of the comparisons.....SOMETHING CHANGED????? From Hitler to Santa Clause in like 4 years...

"contain and work toward a coup"...let's see...Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Cuba, shall I continue....where exactly has the "contain and cause a coup" ever worked? how about "contain and ignore the threat and suffering" that's the UN model.... which is why we have NK and Iran as a current pain in the A#$.....

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

he was funding terrorist organizations...OUTSIDE HIS BORDERS

There's no evidence of this that I've ever seen.

The closest argument is that he was donating money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, but this is clearly more motivated by a desire to be seen as a compassionate leader by the Arab street rather than generating more terrorism.

in every country suffering under a dictator' oppression "most of his country hated(hates) him.," this is the exactly the case...you are so naieve...

Not always. In many dictatorships the brutal leader is seen by their people as a protector. In Iraq I think this was less so, hence the need for such obsessive security. Saddam's grip on his people was pretty weak.

in the late 90's when it served the dems/left NBC was running stories on Saddam with his picture side by side with Hitler's during their news cast and making all of the comparisons.....SOMETHING CHANGED????? From Hitler to Santa Clause in like 4 years...

In the late 1990's there was a big neo-con push to depose Saddam which generated a lot of attention. Nobodies saying he was a good guy, the issue is if he was a bad enough guy to warrant a mostly unilateral invasion. In the late 1990's the opinion from Clinton and the US Congress was a resounding no.

The only reason he was a bad enough guy this time around is because the Bush admin fabricated the link to 9/11.

What changed? Our leadership changed, not Saddam.

"contain and work toward a coup"...let's see...Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Cuba, shall I continue....where exactly has the "contain and cause a coup" ever worked? how about "contain and ignore the threat and suffering" that's the UN model.... which is why we have NK and Iran as a current pain in the A#$.....

Much of the containment issues we have been having are a direct result of our policy positions actually empowering those who which we contain.

N. Korea is a great example. You can't label someone as "evil", declare you're not going to talk to them and then have a hissy fit when they don't follow your every command. It just doesn't make any sense.

-spence