What a shame

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

the parties have "platforms"...the candidates have various policy positions, act like they know everything, make a lot of promises and basically morph into whatever they need to at different times in order to get the nomination and eventually elected or not....you've probably see this if you are paying attention

hope that helps....

looks like trump has around 53 policy positions https://www.politiplatform.com/trump

let me know if you want me to explain to you how a Bill becomes a Law

https://www.politiplatform.com/clinton has 175 policy positions

Not sure trump understands How a Bill becomes a law seeing he thinks the President of the united states can put someone in jail

his policy on health care : Healthcare
number 20
Defund Planned Parenthood thats it

its clear he has no plan

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by BigBo

How is it distorted? We have terrorists entering this country to do harm. We have illegals entering this country committing crimes. We have illegals entering this country draining us resources and costing the tax payers rediculous amounts of money.
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So far the majority of those things Americans are doing the same thing in far greater numbers then Illegals 2 wars are what is draining this country of resources

but again facts dont matter Border Patrol apprehensions, which the government sees as a barometer of illegal border-crossing attempts, have been dropping for the past decade and a half. The Border Patrol apprehended 337,117 people nationwide in fiscal year 2015. That's down nearly 30 percent from the previous year and nearly 80 percent below the peak in 2000. wasn't that George W. Bush time in office???

Deportations increased under President Obama,

you want to stop immigration Invest in central America if they have astable Government and economy the will stay

[BigBo]

Surely you don't believe border security ends at the Mexican border. That's just one piece of the puzzle. We have a huge problem with people entering this country both legally and illegally. I don't want to stop immigration. We just need much tighter controls to follow the people that have already entered the US. Once here, they disappear into the woodwork, use different identities and addresses and apply for every government assistance program they can get on. All while working under the table or even legit jobs under their real name. There are no checks and balances.
I know first hand how it all works. My wife lost family over issues related to all this stuff because rightfully so, she doesn't agree with it either.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

https://www.politiplatform.com/clinton has 175 policy positions I guess she wins on # of policy positions...of course, she is beholden to MANY more special interests

Not sure trump understands How a Bill becomes a law seeing he thinks the President of the united states can put someone in jail

his policy on health care : Healthcare
number 20
Defund Planned Parenthood thats it

its clear he has no plan

if you are suggesting he has no plan regarding healthcare, perhaps he believes that healthcare it is not a responsibility of the position? didn't read that in the job description anywhere...

he said "you'd be in jail"....he didn't say "I'd put you in jail"

now if she ended up in jail because his highly politicized State Department, Justice Department, FBI etc....made sure she ended up in jail....then we can just give him credit for continuing the policies of Obama with opposite results for Hill due to the change in partisanship

if she ended up in jail as a result of the fact that his State, Justice Dept and FBI were not politicized and actually conducted legitimate investigations and provided all of the evidence cooperating with the investigation...then it would be as it should be...

either way democrats, would have no business complaining

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

So far the majority of those things Americans are doing the same thing in far greater numbers then Illegals 2 wars are what is draining this country of resources

but again facts dont matter Border Patrol apprehensions, which the government sees as a barometer of illegal border-crossing attempts, have been dropping for the past decade and a half. The Border Patrol apprehended 337,117 people nationwide in fiscal year 2015. That's down nearly 30 percent from the previous year and nearly 80 percent below the peak in 2000. wasn't that George W. Bush time in office???

Deportations increased under President Obama,

you want to stop immigration Invest in central America if they have astable Government and economy the will stay

Is a speck of honesty too much to ask? Regarding Healthcare, Trump has also publicly said he wants to make it easier for insurance companies to write in multiple states, which might increase competition and lower prices. I don't know if that will help, but it is part of his platform, and you shouldn't pretend that it's not just to make him look less qualified.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by buckman

I'm not saying Trump is a good choice but he is our only choice .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I have been a Trump supporter since the beginning. Lately I think he is mentally ill. Not that the other POS is any better. She is a criminal and a gangster.
So, I'm gonna vote for my 8 month old miniature Schnauzer Charlie.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

let me know if you want me to explain to you how a Bill becomes a Law

He must have missed this when he was a kid...

https://youtu.be/FFroMQlKiag
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Deportations increased under President Obama,

you want to stop immigration Invest in central America if they have astable Government and economy the will stay

"Deportations increased under President Obama,"

Which clearly implies that our borders aren't as secure as they need to be.

Do you lock your front door at night? Why?

"you want to stop immigration Invest in central America if they have astable Government and economy the will stay"

Oh Good Lord, now we have enough money to build a middle class in every country in our hemisphere?

Secure borders would also keep them in.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by piemma

I have been a Trump supporter since the beginning. Lately I think he is mentally ill. Not that the other POS is any better. She is a criminal and a gangster.
So, I'm gonna vote for my 8 month old miniature Schnauzer Charlie.

Everyone says Trump is crazy and that he won't be able to get things done and can't work with people . He has single-handedly brought down the media and showed them to be the fraud they are . He has taken on the establishment in Washington and proved the corruption that we all knew was there. He has taken on the GOP and show them to be the fraud they are while beating the best they had to offer .
He has taken on Hillary Clinton and the corrupt Democratic Party and I believe in the end will beat her .
Not directed at you ,but tell me again how he can't get things done.
I think he just might be crazy enough to put America back on track . .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

Everyone says Trump is crazy and that he won't be able to get things done and can't work with people . He has single-handedly brought down the media and showed them to be the fraud they are . He has taken on the establishment in Washington and proved the corruption that we all knew was there. He has taken on the GOP and show them to be the fraud they are while beating the best they had to offer .
He has taken on Hillary Clinton and the corrupt Democratic Party and I believe in the end will beat her .
Not directed at you ,but tell me again how he can't get things done.
I think he just might be crazy enough to put America back on track . .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jeez I hope you're right (that he wins), but I wouldn't bet on it.

Trump was born a trust fund baby, and maybe in his world, people let him get away with being vulgar and offensive because those people knew they needed his money. Clearly, that doesn't carry over into national politics, and he has been unwilling (or unable) to respond to the fact that being so overtly crass on national TV, is hurting him more than it helps him. That he can't address that issue, doesn't say anything good about him.

I am of the opinion that Hilary is at least as wretched of a human being (probably much more so), but in a different way (not as obviously obnoxious, but more deeply immoral). But I don't work in politics for a living, and I know that Trump is hurting his own chances by being such an ass. You can clobber your opponent without being so obnoxious about it, like Newt Gingrich would do.

At this point, I'd be happy if we lost the Presidency but kept control of Congress. The Senate has a lot more GOP seats up for re-election than Democrat seats, and with a guy this polarizing, we could be handing them the Senate too.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Is a speck of honesty too much to ask? Regarding Healthcare, Trump has also publicly said he wants to make it easier for insurance companies to write in multiple states, which might increase competition and lower prices. I don't know if that will help, but it is part of his platform, and you shouldn't pretend that it's not just to make him look less qualified.

Jim complain to the link and whats is in it.. he has no plan. what he is saying should have been done over the past 8 years instead of how many repeal attempts ...

in the US there are only 41 heath insurance company's and 11 Supplemental insurance company

Sadly there are not enough insurance company's to promote competition Trumps just playing to the uninformed who buy into the competition will lower prices ..

From the Party who supports 26 cable company's ... no Competition there

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

if you are suggesting he has no plan regarding healthcare, perhaps he believes that healthcare it is not a responsibility of the position? didn't read that in the job description anywhere...

he said "you'd be in jail"....he didn't say "I'd put you in jail"

now if she ended up in jail because his highly politicized State Department, Justice Department, FBI etc....made sure she ended up in jail....then we can just give him credit for continuing the policies of Obama with opposite results for Hill due to the change in partisanship

if she ended up in jail as a result of the fact that his State, Justice Dept and FBI were not politicized and actually conducted legitimate investigations and provided all of the evidence cooperating with the investigation...then it would be as it should be...

either way democrats, would have no business complaining

Clinton said it was “awfully good” that someone with the temperament of Trump was not in charge of the law in the country, provoking another Trump jab: “Because you’d be in jail.”

A defiant Donald Trump on Sunday attacked former President Bill Clinton for his treatment of women and vowed, if he won the White House, to put Hillary Clinton in jail for operating a private email server while U.S. secretary of state.http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/...il-threat.html

how do you have the ability not to clearly what most other people see plain as day?

[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Clinton said it was “awfully good” that someone with the temperament of Trump was not in charge of the law in the country, provoking another Trump jab: “Because you’d be in jail.”

A defiant Donald Trump on Sunday attacked former President Bill Clinton for his treatment of women and vowed, if he won the White House, to put Hillary Clinton in jail for operating a private email server while U.S. secretary of state.http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/...il-threat.html

how do you have the ability not to clearly what most other people see plain as day?

What is it you are trying to say? What are we not seeing?

Have you seen this by the way.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/democr...165700194.html
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Jim complain to the link and whats is in it.. he has no plan. what he is saying should have been done over the past 8 years instead of how many repeal attempts ...

in the US there are only 41 heath insurance company's and 11 Supplemental insurance company

Sadly there are not enough insurance company's to promote competition Trumps just playing to the uninformed who buy into the competition will lower prices ..

From the Party who supports 26 cable company's ... no Competition there

Speaking of the past 8 years, why didn't the Democrats pass Obama care during the first 2 years when they had complete control of the government. What kept them from turning this country into the utopia they want during the first 2 years of the Hussien Obama presidency.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Clinton said it was “awfully good” that someone with the temperament of Trump was not in charge of the law in the country, provoking another Trump jab: “Because you’d be in jail.”

A defiant Donald Trump on Sunday attacked former President Bill Clinton for his treatment of women and vowed, if he won the White House, to put Hillary Clinton in jail for operating a private email server while U.S. secretary of state.http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/...il-threat.html

how do you have the ability not to clearly what most other people see plain as day?

she'd be in jail because his administration would actually enforce the laws is the implication and a HYUUUGE problem for Hillary's "temperament" of corruption

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...s-insider.html

as opposed to the current administration that selectively enforces them, ignores them and even makes them up when it feels like it....

your panties are in a bunch over an off handed "remark" by Trump ...while the current administration had "actually done" what you fear...

seems to be a recurring theme

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

So far the majority of those things Americans are doing the same thing in far greater numbers then Illegals

How does this justify not deporting illegal aliens?

If we want to get into the weeds here, obviously the far greater number of a given set of people are likely to do things in far greater numbers than a far lesser number of another set of people. DUH. And is the percentage of illegals doing that same thing the same as the percentage of Americans doing it? And should we "drain more resources" just so we can accommodate illegals because they do less of the same thing. How about getting rid of as much of that illegal thing as we can rather than saying that it's OK to let illegals stay because they do less of the thing we want to get rid of . . . although at a higher rate population wise?

I just don't get what your statement has to do with deporting illegals.

2 wars are what is draining this country of resources

We have lots of resources, including oil, and lots of money not being used (remember quantitative easing?).

Not to fustercluck your mind about what the Federal Government is constitutionally allowed to spend money on, but war, national security, is one of its prime duties. It spends more on a lot of stuff that the Constitution does not give it permission to do. If it refrained from unconstitutional spending, our "resources" would not be drained.

but again facts dont matter Border Patrol apprehensions, which the government sees as a barometer of illegal border-crossing attempts, have been dropping for the past decade and a half. The Border Patrol apprehended 337,117 people nationwide in fiscal year 2015. That's down nearly 30 percent from the previous year and nearly 80 percent below the peak in 2000. wasn't that George W. Bush time in office???

No. George Bush did not officially become President until 2001. 2000 was Clinton's final year.

Deportations increased under President Obama,

Not really. Just depends on how you define deportation: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...402-story.html

you want to stop immigration Invest in central America if they have astable Government and economy the will stay

Would that be a way of draining lots of resources? Haven't we drained resources that way in lots of third world countries only to see those resources pocketed by the corrupt leaders of those countries? I suppose we could send more of our factories and jobs to central America. That would bypass the corrupt leaders, slow down immigration, and really be a boost to American citizens by creating a stable economy there instead of here. Good point.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Jim complain to the link and whats is in it.. he has no plan. what he is saying should have been done over the past 8 years instead of how many repeal attempts ...

A Presidential candidate doesn't have to have a fleshed out "plan." He may have an overall "vision" for the country described in vote catching phrases, but the vision would have to be made real by Congress which would also create the details. Or more accurately, the details would be written by some regulatory agency, which is constitutionally questionable. Or, the President could put on his dictator's hat and make various executive orders and have regulatory agencies make them happen. Which is even more constitutionally questionable. But who cares about constitutionality when we have gone so far beyond it that we think the President is supposed to have the responsibility for planning the direction and functioning of the country.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by scottw

she'd be in jail because his administration would actually enforce the laws is the implication and a HYUUUGE problem for Hillary's "temperament" of corruption

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...s-insider.html

as opposed to the current administration that selectively enforces them, ignores them and even makes them up when it feels like it....

your panties are in a bunch over an off handed "remark" by Trump ...while the current administration had "actually done" what you fear...

seems to be a recurring theme

Yeah, and if wd can't comprehend something as simple and direct as your explanation, and must #^&#^&#^&#^&er over Trump somehow saying that he personally would put Hillary in jail, the article clearly says, if wd read that far: "Trump, the Republican presidential candidate, said he would appoint a special prosecutor to look into his Democratic rival's email use because she had endangered national security during her tenure as President Barack Obama's chief diplomat from 2009-2013." Of course, he would ask his attorney general to appoint the prosecutor.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

she'd be in jail because his administration would actually enforce the laws is the implication and a HYUUUGE problem for Hillary's "temperament" of corruption

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...s-insider.html

as opposed to the current administration that selectively enforces them, ignores them and even makes them up when it feels like it....

your panties are in a bunch over an off handed "remark" by Trump ...while the current administration had "actually done" what you fear...

seems to be a recurring theme

this recurring Dream or Theme seems to the one created by the right hell you have detbuch using phrases like dictator's hat complaining about executive orders (which are not new) regulatory agency and saying it's al constitutionally questionable.... its conspiracy central on steroids ..

Trump represents the right wish for a Time machine .. thats what he is promising , a path back to the 50's where everything was a Norman Rockwell painting and white was might ... he is using the same sales tactics he used for Trump University it will be Great "THAT I can tell you!" or with health insurance You’re gonna have plans that are so good!
it's Nationalism packaged as Patriotism 2 very different

this guy sums it up better than I could (or my conspiracy theory)

The nationalist tends to shout slogans to proclaim his country’s greatness; the patriot is quietly confident, aware of his nation’s strengths and weaknesses. In wanting to holler, the nationalist reflects insecurity, low self-esteem, even a feeling of inferiority; the patriot is comfortable in his skin. “Every nationalist is haunted by the belief that the past can be altered,” wrote Orwell.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Jim complain to the link and whats is in it.. he has no plan. what he is saying should have been done over the past 8 years instead of how many repeal attempts ...

in the US there are only 41 heath insurance company's and 11 Supplemental insurance company

Sadly there are not enough insurance company's to promote competition Trumps just playing to the uninformed who buy into the competition will lower prices ..

From the Party who supports 26 cable company's ... no Competition there

41 health insurance companies? Where did you get that number? That's funny, because at my company where I work , one of the insurance products we sell, is stop-loss insurance to health insurance companies. In other words, our customers, are health insurance companies. And even though we are a small player in that space, we have insurance policies with more than 50 health insurance companies.

Health insurance is expensive, but the profit margins in that business, are a bit below average, for profit margins for all markets - around 6% - 8%. So even if you made them profit-free, that doesn't save a ton.

Health insurance is expensive, because the thing being 'insured' (Healthcare) is very expensive. It's not because the health insurance companies are gouging. I have no idea how to make it cheaper, but we need to start by admitting the truth.

[Fly Rod]

everybody thought water gate was corrupt....this administration is much worst and no one has paid a price for all the corruption....

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

this recurring Dream or Theme seems to the one created by the right hell you have detbuch using phrases like dictator's hat complaining about executive orders (which are not new) regulatory agency and saying it's al constitutionally questionable.... its conspiracy central on steroids ..

Your use of the phrase"the right hell" gives the hypocritical lie to the rest of your paragraph's recurring Dream or Theme. My metaphors are more accurate than yours. An exectutive order which is made outside of constitutional bounds (outside of the law pertaining to presidential power) is dictatorial. The fact that it is not new is irrelevant. Regulatory agencies actually do exist. And they are used exactly as I described. And they are constitutionally questionable as I have described in detail on this forum in the past. That, apparently, you don't understand that, and must depend on politically biased Judges to tell you how to think doesn't give any credence to your "conspiracy central on steroids" conspiracy.

Trump represents the right wish for a Time machine .. thats what he is promising , a path back to the 50's where everything was a Norman Rockwell painting and white was might ...

I never heard him promise any of that. Your metaphor is misplaced. It seems to be more of a tactic to persuade,

he is using the same sales tactics he used for Trump University it will be Great "THAT I can tell you!" or with health insurance You’re gonna have plans that are so good!

Yeah, he is using a rhetorical tactic . . . just as you did. You're a hypocrite.

it's Nationalism packaged as Patriotism 2 very different

Though patriotism and nationalism are different, they need not be incompatable. Tom Paine's "Sunshine Patriot", or Patrick henry's "Give me Liberty or Give Me Death" speeches for example.


this guy sums it up better than I could (or my conspiracy theory)

The nationalist tends to shout slogans to proclaim his country’s greatness; the patriot is quietly confident, aware of his nation’s strengths and weaknesses. In wanting to holler, the nationalist reflects insecurity, low self-esteem, even a feeling of inferiority; the patriot is comfortable in his skin. “Every nationalist is haunted by the belief that the past can be altered,” wrote Orwell.

If you truly understood Orwell, you would not embrace a Progressive for President, nor for any other position of political power. Using his distinction between nationalism and patriotism in order to support a politician who is the standard bearer for a system of government which claims that there are no inherent rights, but only rights which the government allows, shows you do not understand what Orwell was trying to warn us against. And yes, Progressives have stated that there are no inalienable rights.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you truly understood Orwell, you would not embrace a Progressive for President, nor for any other position of political power. Using his distinction between nationalism and patriotism in order to support a politician who is the standard bearer for a system of government which claims that there are no inherent rights, but only rights which the government allows, shows you do not understand what Orwell was trying to warn us against. And yes, Progressives have stated that there are no inalienable rights.

Stay focused not talking Animal Farm

Just Nationalism and Patriotism and 1 fitting description ...
theres no hidden message

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Stay focused not talking Animal Farm

Just Nationalism and Patriotism and 1 fitting description ...
theres no hidden message

So you want to avoid Orwell's novels 1984 and Animal Farm which depict the how and why we are headed in the direction we are, and, instead focus only on Orwell's essay defining Nationalism and Patriotism. OK, let's disregard interconnected themes that exist in the essay and the novels.

Let's start with your selected quote “Every nationalist is haunted by the belief that the past can be altered,”--by this Orwell is referring to how a Nationalist:

"spends his time in a fantasy world in which things happen as they should . . . and he will transfer fragments of this world to the history books whenever possible."

I don't see that Trump sees our world as a place in which things are happening as they should. Nor is he making changes to our history books. In general and in detailed specific instances Orwell gives examples of Nationalists basically rewriting history to suit their view as to how things should be or how things are and have been. This sort of Nationalism is a hallmark of Progressivism. Progressives have rewritten our history and replaced older history books in our schools with new ones which make old "heroes" to be either bad or less significant than modern ones who espouse "social justice" rather than "traditional American values." Of course older heroes like FDR and Woodrow Wilson and LBJ and various minorities are given accolades and larger mention as well as made to be the true models of how things should be. And they minimize or distort the records of those in the past whom Progressives don't approve of like Joe McCarthy. Not only was he right, but the communist infiltration in our Federal Government was more expansive than he thought, and was used to influence our policies, domestic and foreign, and especially to favor the Soviets economically, militarily, and in their takeover of Eastern Europe, as well as the Communist conquest of China and in influencing us into war with Japan. And to this day McCarthy is a bad guy for whom the pejorative "McCarthyism" is named. And to this day many Progressives believe that those who were eventually proven to be Soviet agents or fellow travelers were treated badly and falsely accused. They still insist on re-writing history. And insist on changing the names of things like mountains. And removing historical statues. And tearing down various monuments. And even changing the meaning of words like racist. They are redefining history and language as part of their quest to fundamentally transform this nation. It is a very powerful form of nationalism. And it's not Trump that's doing it.

And this is just one facet of what Orwell defines as Nationalism. He lists different types of Nationalism, and he defines it very broadly, not as merely a jingoist for a specific nation, but more as a state of mind which, broken down to its most basic, simplest concept is the emotional, unobjective favoring of one "unit" (a human group or ideal, etc.) over another "unit"--that one is "simpler, more creative, less vulgar, less snobbish, etc." than another. I don't see Trump as any more "nationalistic" than Hillary in that respect. She certainly has her vulgar moments in calling women trashy names, and snobbish moments with categorizations such as "deplorables," and calling Republicans or "Conservatives" mean-spirited, racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. I think both can be "nationalistic" in thinking they are better than the other in these respects.

wdmso, do you believe that your unit is superior, simpler, more creative, less vulgar, less snobbish, than the Trump unit? If so, you are a Nationalist. Anti-Trumpism, according to Orwell's definition, is itself a nationalist feeling.

And in the essay Orwell says about Nationalism: "There is no crime, absolutely none, that cannot be condoned when 'our' side commits it. Even if one does not deny that the crime has happened, even if one knows that it is exactly the same crime as one has condemned in some other case, even if one admits in an intellectual sense that it is unjustified--still one cannot feel that it is wrong." I don't think Hillary supporters are less nationalistic then Trump supporters in this regard.

Orwell's definition of Nationalism is so broad that very few of us are not guilty of it. Orwell corroborates that by saying: "As for the nationalistic loves and hates that I have spoken of, they are part of the make-up of most of us, whether we like it or not."

As for Patriotism, he doesn't really elaborate in depth what that is. That is why I said that sometimes Nationalism and Patriotism are compatible, even though Orwell might disagree. And even though I respect and agree with much of his writing, he is not my be all and end all definer of all words.

That's why I pointed out the examples of Tom Paine and Patrick Henry. They shouted slogans and proclaimed their country’s righteousness. And my Orwellian nationalism agrees with them. And it agrees with the Constitution as written rather than the one that has been rewritten by Progressive judicial fiat. Is "America first" nationalistic or patriotic or both?

That's why Trump is not, as you put it, my man. Who he will nominate to the Supreme Court is "my man." I voted for Cruz in the primary. I voted for the Constitution in my early voting ballot. Although, it looks like that is going down to defeat. It looks like your nationalism will win.