Interesting

[RIJIMMY]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/04/beck.iraq/index.html

[buckman]

I think Glen Beck is right on 90% of the time. We can only hope he is on this time as well. Interesting for sure. And bad news for the dems if he is right. Which way do you think Obama is hoping? Interesting.....

[Nebe]

Of course Iraq is fine now. We gotta go into Iran next..You guys haven't got the memo yet? Iraq is fine just fine.. nothing to see here folks move along.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Of course Iraq is fine now. We gotta go into Iran next..You guys haven't got the memo yet? Iraq is fine just fine.. nothing to see here folks move along.

We can all hope it doesn't get to the point we have to go into Iran. I'm sure Obama can talk them out of their nukes. But if he doesn't and Iran starts a nuclear war in the mid east you will blame Bush for not doing enough. It's sad that the Dems have positioned there party as, whats bad for America is good for the Democrats.

[Nebe]

Do you really think anyone would start a nuclear war? Nukes are tools of fear and bartering chips.. nothing more. In the dark ages, Man created gods to make 'the people' live in fear so they could be easily controled... in todays age we live in fear of nuclear war.. It will never happen.. the losses are too great.

We need to get our asses out of the middle east, let isreal take care of themselves and stop s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g off the tit of foreign oil and have a self sustaining energy policy. Who ever is thinking like that is going to get my vote

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Do you really think anyone would start a nuclear war? Nukes are tools of fear and bartering chips.. nothing more. In the dark ages, Man created gods to make 'the people' live in fear so they could be easily controled... in todays age we live in fear of nuclear war.. It will never happen.. the losses are too great.

We need to get our asses out of the middle east, let isreal take care of themselves and stop s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g off the tit of foreign oil and have a self sustaining energy policy. Who ever is thinking like that is going to get my vote

No, these are rational terrorist we have here.But if your wrong....

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

No, these are rational terrorist we have here.But if your wrong....

Perhaps the single largest mistake we could make, and one the Bush Admin has been making since 9/11, is to assume that terrorists must be irrational.

I guess it's a lot easier to just say they hate us for our freedom, sure it makes zero sense, but it's so easy for the electorate to process.

-spence

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Do you really think anyone would start a nuclear war? Nukes are tools of fear and bartering chips.. nothing more. In the dark ages, Man created gods to make 'the people' live in fear so they could be easily controled... in todays age we live in fear of nuclear war.. It will never happen.. the losses are too great.

Don't like to get into this crap but I gotta say this: Are ya nuts?

When you believe god gives you permission...anything is possible.ANYTHING.Tools of fear you say but won't ever be used?This isn't the cold war.These people don't fear nuclear war,if anything they may very well may be living for it.Give a jihadist a nuke and the means to deliver it and he WILL use it.Losses don't matter to these people.Dark ages...the middleast is living theirs' right now.

Nebe I like and respect you but your statement is without a doubt one of the most naive ever made.Ever.You would try to tell me that if Al-Queda,Hamas etc. got a hold of a viable nuclear warhead and the means to deliver it that they would not use it out of fear of nuclear war?If you expect me to believe that you are nuts bro.And I only say nuts if that's what you expect me to believe.

I would end this with the statement that I don't base my beliefs on politics in any way shape or form but simply on an open-eye,realistic view of our planet and its people.

[spence]

Originally Posted by basswipe

When you believe god gives you permission...anything is possible.ANYTHING.

Do you have any doubt at all that our own President Bush doesn't feel he's sanctioned by "his God" to strike out against terrorisim?

Even if you discount the second hand witness to his more wacky statements, what's on the public record is clear enough to me.

Tools of fear you say but won't ever be used?This isn't the cold war.These people don't fear nuclear war,if anything they may very well may be living for it.Give a jihadist a nuke and the means to deliver it and he WILL use it.

Any yet there are no jihadist who have the means to build or probably even acquire a nuke.

The countries who do have them are completely deterred by MAD, as they know they would be on a short list for the USA to render them unto glass.

More likely would be a nuclear Iran going after Saudia Arabia...the divisions between Islamic sects are much deeper than against the West.

In the end, they are all in it for themselves, and the world will certainly suffer. But I think the proposition of a sneak nuke attack against the US pretty remote.

-spence

[Nebe]

I call it like I see it basswipe. I will say this- if this country continues on the same course of diplomacy by means of force, the chances of a mushroom cloud are much higher.

One must look into why they hate us. Then dissect the reasons. from there we must change. If not the rest of the world will continue to look at us like a crack pot nation run by a crazed madman.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Do you have any doubt at all that our own President Bush doesn't feel he's sanctioned by "his God" to strike out against terrorisim?

Even if you discount the second hand witness to his more wacky statements, what's on the public record is clear enough to me.


Any yet there are no jihadist who have the means to build or probably even acquire a nuke.

The countries who do have them are completely deterred by MAD, as they know they would be on a short list for the USA to render them unto glass.

More likely would be a nuclear Iran going after Saudia Arabia...the divisions between Islamic sects are much deeper than against the West.

In the end, they are all in it for themselves, and the world will certainly suffer. But I think the proposition of a sneak nuke attack against the US pretty remote.

-spence

I would say N Korea does not care about Mad. And it will happen, by a terrorist group, maybe a dirty bomb, but it will happen. And then some of you will say we deserved it. Pathetic.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I would say N Korea does not care about Mad. And it will happen, by a terrorist group, maybe a dirty bomb, but it will happen. And then some of you will say we deserved it. Pathetic.

Kim Jong-il has but one objective...survival.

To sell a nuclear weapon is the fastest way for him to not meet that objective. To sell a nuclear weapon and have it used against the West would give NATO the rights to remove N Korea from the map.

And a "dirty bomb" isn't a nuke so please don't try to confuse the two.

I love the "blame ourselves" mantra. Instead perhaps I should shove my own head so far up my own ass that the smell becomes so second nature that I'll convince myself that my %$%$%$%$ doesn't indeed stink.

This will eliminate any unecessary introspection that could better my behavior, because we're on a mission from God to get "them".

-spence

[buckman]

I wasn't confusing the two..but thanks for setting be straight..I'm sure we'll all feel better when New York becomes inhabitable. And yet why don't they like us? Jealosy, our God is not theirs, I guess the Taliban were very understanding of other cultures, We do more good in the world then any other country and yet I never here some of the America haters mention that. like I said.... pathetic

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I call it like I see it basswipe. I will say this- if this country continues on the same course of diplomacy by means of force, the chances of a mushroom cloud are much higher.

One must look into why they hate us. Then dissect the reasons. from there we must change. If not the rest of the world will continue to look at us like a crack pot nation run by a crazed madman.

Nebe, If I hate you, is that your fault or my problem. Would you change your thinking so I would like you? I didn't think so. We will always be hated as long as we are top dog. It's human nature. The world likes us when it's convenient for them. If we leave the Middle East all hell will break loose and the world will say we abandoned Iraq.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by buckman

Nebe, If I hate you, is that your fault or my problem. Would you change your thinking so I would like you? I didn't think so. We will always be hated as long as we are top dog. It's human nature. The world likes us when it's convenient for them. If we leave the Middle East all hell will break loose and the world will say we abandoned Iraq.

Actually, if you hated me for my actions AND I KNEW MY ACTIONS WERE WRONG.... I should change them. For I know I would be a better man for admitting my faults. Who is saying we should leave the middle east right not this very minute and leave a power vacuum? Not me.. we started the fiasco of lies.. might as well stay and clean up the mess.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I wasn't confusing the two..but thanks for setting be straight..I'm sure we'll all feel better when New York becomes inhabitable. And yet why don't they like us? Jealosy, our God is not theirs, I guess the Taliban were very understanding of other cultures, We do more good in the world then any other country and yet I never here some of the America haters mention that. like I said.... pathetic

A dirty bomb woudn't make New York inhabitable, and I'm not sure the point of the Taliban reference, but it's pretty clear why we were attacked.

You seem to be very confused as to what's really what in the world. Perhaps that's why everything looks pathetic?

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Actually, if you hated me for my actions AND I KNEW MY ACTIONS WERE WRONG.... I should change them. For I know I would be a better man for admitting my faults. Who is saying we should leave the middle east right not this very minute and leave a power vacuum? Not me.. we started the fiasco of lies.. might as well stay and clean up the mess.

Don't bother Nebe, some people just can't admit their own %$%$%$%$ stinks.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

A dirty bomb woudn't make New York inhabitable, and I'm not sure the point of the Taliban reference, but it's pretty clear why we were attacked.

You seem to be very confused as to what's really what in the world. Perhaps that's why everything looks pathetic?

-spence

Enlighten me . Why were we attacked? It's always good to hear from someone who has such a grasp on the reality of a bunch of murdering cowards.I can't even fathom being able to undestand that mentallity. Enlighten us, What was going through their heads as they crashed those planes?

Everything isn't pathetic to me. Just the way you people are always condemning America first. Blame us for being attacked. I'm guessing you didn't feel that way on 9/10 or on 9/11

[Joe]

I would not call the jihadists cowards - they are formidable and willing to lay down their lives without question.
Moreover, they are waging war against the U.S. the only way it can waged: unconventionally, through terrorist tactics.
Terror is the only option to anyone who wishes to confront the U.S. militarily. To confront the modern U.S. military head on using traditional military tactics - is suicidal. If you line up your troops in places where we can get a GPS fix them, then you end up like Iraq's Republican Guard: dead on day one.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Enlighten me . Why were we attacked? It's always good to hear from someone who has such a grasp on the reality of a bunch of murdering cowards.I can't even fathom being able to undestand that mentallity. Enlighten us, What was going through their heads as they crashed those planes?

Everything isn't pathetic to me. Just the way you people are always condemning America first. Blame us for being attacked. I'm guessing you didn't feel that way on 9/10 or on 9/11

We were attacked because a group well financed militant Muslims felt the US was:

1) Behind the Saudi Royal Family who's been very oppressive of their own people (Muslims)
2) Supporting Isreal who's oppressing Palestinian Muslims
3) Ignoring Russia who's oppressing Chechen Muslims
4) Militarily positioned on holy ground

al Qaeda believes the US is the primary hurdle to the establishment of a true Islamic state (in their eyes) and so 9/11 was another in a series of attacks over the past decade to try to get us to but out of the Middle East.

It's really that simple, it's all about our foreign policy. Not because we can have our fries "super sized" and let gay people get hitched.

Bin Laden's indictment of the USA contains a lot of truths, and as such it's been fairly easy for him to gather support from the moderate Islamic base.

To assess reasons why our policy has hurt us is a pragmatic and reasonable action. Perhaps with hindsight we would have done some things differently, and perhaps some of our choices have ultimately let to a net gain for the US and even the World as a whole.

But to call this "blaming America" is really ignoring reality and is simply foolish.

There should be no place for divisive election rhetoric in a real policy discussion, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the current GOP and Administration have done a hundred times over in seek of a permanent republican majority.

And Joe is right, these guys were not cowards. Once again a statement meant only to distract from the real issues.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

We were attacked because a group well financed militant Muslims felt the US was:

1) Behind the Saudi Royal Family who's been very oppressive of their own people (Muslims)
2) Supporting Isreal who's oppressing Palestinian Muslims
3) Ignoring Russia who's oppressing Chechen Muslims
4) Militarily positioned on holy ground

al Qaeda believes the US is the primary hurdle to the establishment of a true Islamic state (in their eyes) and so 9/11 was another in a series of attacks over the past decade to try to get us to but out of the Middle East.

It's really that simple, it's all about our foreign policy. Not because we can have our fries "super sized" and let gay people get hitched.

Bin Laden's indictment of the USA contains a lot of truths, and as such it's been fairly easy for him to gather support from the moderate Islamic base.

To assess reasons why our policy has hurt us is a pragmatic and reasonable action. Perhaps with hindsight we would have done some things differently, and perhaps some of our choices have ultimately let to a net gain for the US and even the World as a whole.

But to call this "blaming America" is really ignoring reality and is simply foolish.

There should be no place for divisive election rhetoric in a real policy discussion, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the current GOP and Administration have done a hundred times over in seek of a permanent republican majority.

And Joe is right, these guys were not cowards. Once again a statement meant only to distract from the real issues.

-spence

And they don't oppress their own? They kill other Muslims for not following their version of Islam. The Talban weren't oppressive? How about Saddam, was he oppressive? So we should cave in to Bin Laden and do what he wants us to do? Everyone knows how to sprinkle some truths into an arguement to sound like your correct. Thats what I do.

I think what they do, Strapping bombs on young,kids and women is cowardly. I think boarding a plane and crashing it into a building is cowardly.I think hiding in a cave and letting your group membrs blow them selfs up all over the world to proof a point that you want to make is cowardly. These people have nothing else and that is why they join with the terrorist. Just like the gangs in America. Most of them just do what their told. For 72 virgins, real rational..

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

And they don't oppress their own? They kill other Muslims for not following their version of Islam. The Talban weren't oppressive? How about Saddam, was he oppressive?

I said above that they do, and al Qaeda would argue that the West enables oppresive Islamic leaders.

Bin Laden has executed a brilliant marketing campaign, and marketing rarely makes an objective statement. You wouldn't have much success inciting a global insurgency if you started off by listing the bad things done in the name if Islam would you?

You asked why they attacked us on 9/11 and I've told you, but you still can't seem to process it.

So we should cave in to Bin Laden and do what he wants us to do? Everyone knows how to sprinkle some truths into an arguement to sound like your correct. Thats what I do.

Not at all, we shoud do everything to eliminate Bin Laden and his ilk. But we should also focus on addressing the very issues that have allowed his message to fester within the moderate Islamic world.

Bush's policy has made this challenge even more difficult as our global standing has been so diminished under his leadership.

These people have nothing else and that is why they join with the terrorist. Just like the gangs in America. Most of them just do what their told. For 72 virgins, real rational..

I think the real evidence out there would indicate just the opposite. Bin Laden left a family of limitless wealth. Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from a middle class background. Many Palestenian suicide bombers are from more successful families and many are not even fundamentalist Muslims.

Again it goes back to the characterization of terrorists as crazy which is a dangerous position to take. If you believe they are not rational, then how would you predict their actions? Terrorisim is in fact quite predictable if you're able to understand what motivates them.

Quite often, it's simply rage.

-spence

[slapshot]

Originally Posted by Nebe

One must look into why they hate us. Then dissect the reasons. from there we must change.

Thank God your party lacks a viable candidate.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I said above that they do, and al Qaeda would argue that the West enables oppresive Islamic leaders.

Bin Laden has executed a brilliant marketing campaign, and marketing rarely makes an objective statement. You wouldn't have much success inciting a global insurgency if you started off by listing the bad things done in the name if Islam would you?

You asked why they attacked us on 9/11 and I've told you, but you still can't seem to process it.


Not at all, we shoud do everything to eliminate Bin Laden and his ilk. But we should also focus on addressing the very issues that have allowed his message to fester within the moderate Islamic world.

Bush's policy has made this challenge even more difficult as our global standing has been so diminished under his leadership.


I think the real evidence out there would indicate just the opposite. Bin Laden left a family of limitless wealth. Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from a middle class background. Many Palestenian suicide bombers are from more successful families and many are not even fundamentalist Muslims.

Again it goes back to the characterization of terrorists as crazy which is a dangerous position to take. If you believe they are not rational, then how would you predict their actions? Terrorisim is in fact quite predictable if you're able to understand what motivates them.

Quite often, it's simply rage.

-spence

Spence, it sounds like you have all the answers. I'm sure someone who can predict terrorist attacks could come in real handy. Sounds like your quite impressed with Bin Laden. Your wrong about why these people do what they do. The young Palistines believe they will be made marters and their familys are paid by Hammas. Look at the few idiot Americans that joined the Taliban. They were for the most part confused,spoiled little pukes who needed a cause and were looking to feel like they had a purpose in life. We have a lot of them in this country.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Spence, it sounds like you have all the answers. I'm sure someone who can predict terrorist attacks could come in real handy. Sounds like your quite impressed with Bin Laden. Your wrong about why these people do what they do. The young Palistines believe they will be made marters and their familys are paid by Hammas. Look at the few idiot Americans that joined the Taliban. They were for the most part confused,spoiled little pukes who needed a cause and were looking to feel like they had a purpose in life. We have a lot of them in this country.

Predict isn't the same thing as predictable, and yes Bin Laden is quite impressive. Unfortunately for him he seems to believe he's a larger figure in history than he really is, and his long-term solutions to the plight of oppressed people aren't looking all that viable.

But once again you're mixing motives, reasons and root causes.

Studies have been done on Palestenian suicide bombers and while some may believe in martyrdom many are not even all that religious and do it simply because they're conned into believing it will make a difference. They are full of rage and don't see any more attractive options...

The 9/11 attack wasn't a group gambit for virgins, it happened for real reasons as I've detailed above.

I don't have all the answers, but I have done the work to at least try to understand what the heck is going on. To do so requires you lower your guard a bit, but I think it makes you stronger as a result.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

I think its funny that Spence beleives that Bin Laden is fighting for "opressed" people.
He is fighting for his "god given" right to oppress others based interpretations of his religion. He wants to oppress women, free speech, education, trade, culture, etc. I agree with your reasons for 9/11, but you leave out the US reasons for creating those situtaions. We have interests and allies we need to protect.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Again it goes back to the characterization of terrorists as crazy which is a dangerous position to take. If you believe they are not rational, then how would you predict their actions?
-spence

Spence and Nebe, yes or no answer - Was Hitler crazy?

Germany was a dump post WWI. The Germans were oppressed and taken advantage of by the Allies victory. People were starving (literally) The Nazi party brought back industry, culture and most Germans lives improved dramatically. The NAZI party was a godsend to the German people in the 1930s. Banking and other financial institutions were peimarily operated by the Jews. Using all of your logic with Bin LAden. Hitler was justified in his actions.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I think its funny that Spence beleives that Bin Laden is fighting for "opressed" people.
He is fighting for his "god given" right to oppress others based interpretations of his religion. He wants to oppress women, free speech, education, trade, culture, etc. I agree with your reasons for 9/11, but you leave out the US reasons for creating those situtaions. We have interests and allies we need to protect.

I'm not trying to justify US policy, much of which is easy to justify. But a direct or indirect result of much of that policy has been suffering, this is impossible to deny.

Here's the key.

America being the root cause of the suffering isn't the issue, rather it's that we stand in the way of fundamentalist Muslims ability to solve the problems in their chosen manner, namely to eastablish an Islamic state.

If you get hung up on the fact that militant fundamentalists are often oppressers themselves, you loose sight of the motive!

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Using all of your logic with Bin LAden. Hitler was justified in his actions.

This makes no sense what so ever.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

America being the root cause of the suffering isn't the issue, rather it's that we stand in the way of fundamentalist Muslims ability to solve the problems in their chosen manner, namely to eastablish an Islamic state.

-spence

You're right, we shouldnt have stood in the way of the establishment of the Ariyan nation either, Let them solve their own problems